Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Yetos]

deleted, douple posting

 

[bigsnake49]

There is a lot of archaiology that certifies the change of architectural rythm, decoration, mettalurgy, etc
around 911 BC we see these.

But it is true that we do not see huge devastations, marks of population replacements etc etc
that is why many modern scholars claim that Dorians existed same places the times of Mycaenae collapse,
and probably lived on mountains dressed as woodcutters with leathers and furs,
But this does not explain on how Dorians existed on Dodecanese Crete etc,

So the chance in some industries, life style etc etc suggest that probably happened a -long period, short distances- kind of dwelling,
possible for decades, low numbers, and not that far, than Central-North Epirotic Greece

Yep, the prevailing theory right now is that they lived among the general population as woodcutters or shepherds. Kind of like the Vlachs.

 

[blevins13]

Yep, the prevailing theory right now is that they lived among the general population as woodcutters or shepherds. Kind of like the Vlachs.

Interesting, woodcutters and shepherds that become elite and enslave their masters.....amazing, looks Marxism....who knows might be true, but I am putting all my chips on Maciamo’s Hallstatt-Doric relation, a warrior elite that take over Mycenaeans, and enslave them. Plus it seems that makes sense also genetically.


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[Demetrios]

It seems to be clear why you don't want to continue this discussion, you just don't want to know about new studies regarding Proto-Indo-European homeland and migrations.

Journal of Indo-European Studies (a peer-reviewed academic journal of Indo-European studies): https://www.jies.org/

The current double issue is Volume 47, Numbers 3 & 4 (Fall/Winter 2019):

Buddy, i was in the same boat as you one to one and a half year ago. I would go and discuss mostly in private with people about the Anatolian (initially) and then the Transcaucasian origin of PIE, but as i learned more and went through the studies it became more and more clear to me that the most likely homeland of the actual PIEs was either the North Caucasus or the Pontic-Caspian steppe. You think i am unaware of the CHG component that the steppe people received? I actually made a post about it in this thread one month ago, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page84?p=603309&viewfull=1#post603309. If anything this CHG component also corroborates the "Caucausian Substrate" hypothesis i shared. Also, it shows that the CHG among the steppe people most likely originated from the north Caucasus, not Transcaucasia. Look for example at the "Eneolithic Caucasus" autosomal profile, and then the "Eneolithic steppe" autosomal profile. Anyway you can believe whatever you want, i still don't understand why we continue this discussion. Don't expect my affirmation.

 

[Demetrios]

Interesting, woodcutters and shepherds that become elite and enslave their masters.....amazing, looks Marxism....who knows might be true, but I am putting all my chips on Maciamo’s Hallstatt-Doric relation, a warrior elite that take over Mycenaeans, and enslave them. Plus it seems that makes sense also genetically.


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It doesn't make any sense genetically, but then again, whatever really.

 

[Demetrios]

Yep, the prevailing theory right now is that they lived among the general population as woodcutters or shepherds. Kind of like the Vlachs.

Pretty much in corroboration with this small segment found in “The Cambridge Ancient History” (Vol. II part I: History of the Middle East and the Aegean Region c.1380-1000 BCE – edited by I.E.S. Edwards, C.J. Gadd, N.G.L. Hammond, L. Sollberger).

Then again, they could have chosen to use the Sarakatsani as an analogy, who were in fact Greek-speaking, truly nomadic, contrary to the Koutsovlachs for example, and hypotheses as to a Doric origin have been suggested.

 

[blevins13]

It doesn't make any sense genetically, but then again, whatever really.

Why it does not? I guess the reason Maciamo put E-V13 under Hallstatt was to make sense of its distribution....and probably that is why relate it to Doric invasion considering the age and timing of E-V13 branches.


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[bigsnake49]

Why it does not? I guess the reason Maciamo put E-V13 under Hallstatt was to make sense of its distribution....and probably that is why relate it to Doric invasion considering the age and timing of E-V13 branches.


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I had no idea that we had Doric samples. This is new to me. Can you point me to where those are? I might want to compare myself to them on K13 Ancient or do a one to one comparison.

 

[Demetrios]

Why it does not? I guess the reason Maciamo put E-V13 under Hallstatt was to make sense of its distribution....and probably that is why relate it to Doric invasion considering the age and timing of E-V13 branches.


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First of all, there is not a single Doric sample with an E-V13 paternal haplogroup. Therefore it is purely hypothetical that they even had it or that it was even major in them. Could there be, of course it could considering the age and timing of the relevant branches. Then again, the LBA period is characterized by widespread upheaval and a number of migrations, it could be anyone who would accompany the Dorian Greeks to the south. How does this make Dorians a Hallstatt people? It doesn't. And of course, autosomally regions that were traditionally inhabited by Dorians show no autosomal affinity to Central Europe or Celtic ethnic groups. Whether we are referring to Greece, or southern Italy which is more conservative.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

If Dorians were not regional or local people, what language did they speak, and why didn’t they impose their foreign language on the remnants of the Mycenaean world? Is there a trace of such a language in loanwords? As far as we know, Dorians spoke Greek.

 

[blevins13]

I had no idea that we had Doric samples. This is new to me. Can you point me to where those are? I might want to compare myself to them on K13 Ancient or do a one to one comparison.

You are correct, as far as I know we don’t.


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[Philjames100]

"Greek speakers first descended from northwestern Greece towards central and southern Greece at approximately 2,200 BCE". To be more precise, proto-Greeks should have reached the area of north-western Greece sometime between 2,500-2,400 BCE, as i elaborate in this comment. Greeks first made their expansion towards central and southern Greece at approximately 2,200 BCE, something which is corroborated by the oldest horse bones of Greece being found in Lerna (Argolis) and dated to shortly after 2,000 BCE

That corresponds with a migration into Greece from the northwest related to the Bell Beaker and Cetina culture (post-Vucedol):


“Bell Beaker margins include parts of Eastern Poland, Moldova, and Romania, as well as Malta in the south… Surprisingly perhaps, one can argue that these Beaker margins also reached as far as the Early Bronze Age core, Greece, Crete and the Aegean. This European south-east has only recently come into the focus of Beaker research (Heyd 2007; Maran 2007). Besides conspicuous pottery evidence mostly from Olympia, it is again the wristguards, and the ‘Montgomery toggles’ (as on duffle coats), that form the majority of the diagnostic Beaker elements. As a result of this recent interest, more wristguards, both the broader four-holed and the oblong-narrow two-holed, are now known from the Aegean than from the whole of Italy, for example. They almost all date to Early Helladic III levels (as does the pottery evidence from Olympia), thus after 2200 BC in absolute terms. This makes them late Beaker, as compared to the central and western European examples. the best explanation for their relatively late appearance lies with a migratory event, rightly described by Maran (e.g. 1998) as bringing Adriatic Cetina people incrementally to southern Greece for some decades from the transition of Early Helladic II to III. And since early Cetina is one of those syncretistic Bell Beaker cultures of its south-eastern periphery as shown above, this best explains the manifestation of these Bell Beaker elements deep in south-east Europe.”

Heyd 2013, p.63-64


Bell Beaker map

Distribution of artefacts in Greece and the Aegean


Generalissimo (Eurogenes) left this comment on Anthrogenica:

"By the way, I am aware of an R1b in an elite Mycenaean grave, but it's not Z2103. So let's wait and see, because R1b also pops up in other cultures around the east Med, and it's probably from Beakers coming from the west Med."

Link


Vucedol:

"[Mathieson 2018] included an analysis of three individuals ascribed to the Vučedol culture. One male carried haplogroup R1b1a1a2a2 [R-M269] and T2e, while the other carried G2a2a1a2a and T2c2. The female carried U4a."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture#Genetics

 

[blevins13]

That corresponds with a migration into Greece from the northwest related to the Bell Beaker and Cetina culture (post-Vucedol):


“Bell Beaker margins include parts of Eastern Poland, Moldova, and Romania, as well as Malta in the south… Surprisingly perhaps, one can argue that these Beaker margins also reached as far as the Early Bronze Age core, Greece, Crete and the Aegean. This European south-east has only recently come into the focus of Beaker research (Heyd 2007; Maran 2007). Besides conspicuous pottery evidence mostly from Olympia, it is again the wristguards, and the ‘Montgomery toggles’ (as on duffle coats), that form the majority of the diagnostic Beaker elements. As a result of this recent interest, more wristguards, both the broader four-holed and the oblong-narrow two-holed, are now known from the Aegean than from the whole of Italy, for example. They almost all date to Early Helladic III levels (as does the pottery evidence from Olympia), thus after 2200 BC in absolute terms. This makes them late Beaker, as compared to the central and western European examples. the best explanation for their relatively late appearance lies with a migratory event, rightly described by Maran (e.g. 1998) as bringing Adriatic Cetina people incrementally to southern Greece for some decades from the transition of Early Helladic II to III. And since early Cetina is one of those syncretistic Bell Beaker cultures of its south-eastern periphery as shown above, this best explains the manifestation of these Bell Beaker elements deep in south-east Europe.”

Heyd 2013, p.63-64


Bell Beaker map

Distribution of artefacts in Greece and the Aegean


Generalissimo (Eurogenes) left this comment on Anthrogenica:

"By the way, I am aware of an R1b in an elite Mycenaean grave, but it's not Z2103. So let's wait and see, because R1b also pops up in other cultures around the east Med, and it's probably from Beakers coming from the west Med."

Link


Vucedol:

"[Mathieson 2018] included an analysis of three individuals ascribed to the Vučedol culture. One male carried haplogroup R1b1a1a2a2 [R-M269] and T2e, while the other carried G2a2a1a2a and T2c2. The female carried U4a."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture#Genetics

To relate the Beakers with proto-Greeks that will take some major effort.....but it will be fun to entertain it as an option.


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[Demetrios]

That corresponds with a migration into Greece from the northwest related to the Bell Beaker and Cetina culture (post-Vucedol):


“Bell Beaker margins include parts of Eastern Poland, Moldova, and Romania, as well as Malta in the south… Surprisingly perhaps, one can argue that these Beaker margins also reached as far as the Early Bronze Age core, Greece, Crete and the Aegean. This European south-east has only recently come into the focus of Beaker research (Heyd 2007; Maran 2007). Besides conspicuous pottery evidence mostly from Olympia, it is again the wristguards, and the ‘Montgomery toggles’ (as on duffle coats), that form the majority of the diagnostic Beaker elements. As a result of this recent interest, more wristguards, both the broader four-holed and the oblong-narrow two-holed, are now known from the Aegean than from the whole of Italy, for example. They almost all date to Early Helladic III levels (as does the pottery evidence from Olympia), thus after 2200 BC in absolute terms. This makes them late Beaker, as compared to the central and western European examples. the best explanation for their relatively late appearance lies with a migratory event, rightly described by Maran (e.g. 1998) as bringing Adriatic Cetina people incrementally to southern Greece for some decades from the transition of Early Helladic II to III. And since early Cetina is one of those syncretistic Bell Beaker cultures of its south-eastern periphery as shown above, this best explains the manifestation of these Bell Beaker elements deep in south-east Europe.”

Heyd 2013, p.63-64


Bell Beaker map

Distribution of artefacts in Greece and the Aegean


Generalissimo (Eurogenes) left this comment on Anthrogenica:

"By the way, I am aware of an R1b in an elite Mycenaean grave, but it's not Z2103. So let's wait and see, because R1b also pops up in other cultures around the east Med, and it's probably from Beakers coming from the west Med."

Link


Vucedol:

"[Mathieson 2018] included an analysis of three individuals ascribed to the Vučedol culture. One male carried haplogroup R1b1a1a2a2 [R-M269] and T2e, while the other carried G2a2a1a2a and T2c2. The female carried U4a."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture#Genetics

I do mention the Maran hypothesis and the "Četina phenomenon" here, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page80?p=598415&viewfull=1#post598415. It was certainly a factor but as i explain in the post i shared it is more complicated than that with additional elements to the story, such as the "Balkano-Lower Danubian" complex.

As for the R1b supposed Mycenaean sample, i am aware of it. It is even published in Carlos Quiles's ancient Y-DNA map, https://indo-european.eu/ancient_dna/y-dna-ancient/index.html, that originally cited these very exact Anthrogenica posts. He actually includes two R1b samples on the map as relating to Mycenaeans. He has since then changed the source as supposedly being 2nd hand reports from certain Labs. This is of course not true. The only source of that information that exists are those posts in Anthrogenica, and in order to consider them as a fact i would need to see them published. I even asked him for the source in the comments of this page, https://indo-european.eu/2019/12/the-expansion-of-indo-europeans-in-y-chromosome-haplogroups/. To me it sounds like rumours.

 

[Yetos]

If Dorians were not regional or local people, what language did they speak, and why didn’t they impose their foreign language on the remnants of the Mycenaean world? Is there a trace of such a language in loanwords? As far as we know, Dorians spoke Greek.

Modern Tsakonian-Τσακωνικα dialect is exo-Laconian and is a best 'relic' of ancient Doric Dialects,

also some Greek speaking villages in Italy consider that kept some Dorian aspirations,

 

[Demetrios]

Modern Tsakonian-Τσακωνικα dialect is exo-Laconian and is a best 'relic' of ancient Doric Dialects,

also some Greek speaking villages in Italy consider that kept some Dorian aspirations,

The etymology of Tsakones is a little more complicated than that. The name "Tsakones" (Τζάκωνες/Τσάκονες) must have been acquired at some point around the 8th century CE, initially as an exonym. It was imposed on them by the Roman (Byzantine) administration, and means "irregulars that serve as guards of castles" (i can expand on that). Other than that, here is a small English video on them, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nxD4GDJXCw.

 

[bigsnake49]

If Dorians were not regional or local people, what language did they speak, and why didn’t they impose their foreign language on the remnants of the Mycenaean world? Is there a trace of such a language in loanwords? As far as we know, Dorians spoke Greek.

The Greeks were not just one giant homogeneous tribe. There were 4 major tribes: Achaeans, Aeolians, Ionians and Dorians and then up to 230 smaller ones the smaller ones just known by their place of residence. There were also 4 major dialects and then local differences. Remember that there was no TV or radio, no central lending library and no committee to standardize the language. If you want to know more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_dialects

 

[Philjames100]

I do mention the Maran hypothesis and the "Četina phenomenon" here, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page80?p=598415&viewfull=1#post598415. It was certainly a factor but as i explain in the post i shared it is more complicated than that with additional elements to the story, such as the "Balkano-Lower Danubian" complex.

Thanks, that's a good post.

"regarding the Balkano-Lower Danubian complex we also have its pseudo-Minyan ware (mentioned in a page/image i shared above)"

I couldn't find that link. Do you have any more info on pseudo-Minyan ware?

 

[Demetrios]

Thanks, that's a good post.

"regarding the Balkano-Lower Danubian complex we also have its pseudo-Minyan ware (mentioned in a page/image i shared above)"

I couldn't find that link. Do you have any more info on pseudo-Minyan ware?

Here it is. I edited it again to show better. I also include a map below it, with the respective locations that are cited.

 

[blevins13]

If Dorians were not regional or local people, what language did they speak, and why didn’t they impose their foreign language on the remnants of the Mycenaean world? Is there a trace of such a language in loanwords? As far as we know, Dorians spoke Greek.

The discussion for Dorian invasion, migration, or revolution remains open.....depending on who they were and where they came from ....that will provide clues for language association.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion



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