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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You answered your own question in the previous post, of which I agreed with. There is no modern population that has the same admixture rates as Minoans. Also, there is no WHG or Natufian in Minoans, so that point is moot. Minoans are however ancestral to some modern populations, for example Modern Greeks.
    Help me wrap my head around this.
    First there is no modern population close to Minoans, the closest are 4 Jewish groups, and even they are far.
    Then "some modern populations" are ancestral according to you, for example Greeks, yet they don't appear in the calculators at all, at least for the two Minoan samples in the preceding posts.

    Am I missing something?
    I mean, I am not contesting it. If anyone would be related ancestrally to Minoans it would have to be Greeks, or people from around that region. But I do not see evidence to back it up?

    In the calculators I have seen Southern Italians (off memory I believe one of them was Palermo Trapani, could be misremembering) on MTA fall the closest to Minoans, from the results some Italian members have shared in this forum. Would be revealing if some of the Greek members ran calculators to see this hypothesis tested.

    I ran mine for and Log 4 was the closest followed by Log 2, the other samples were quite far away. The results are in this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Help me wrap my head around this.
    First there is no modern population close to Minoans, the closest are 4 Jewish groups, and even they are far.
    Then "some modern populations" are ancestral according to you, for example Greeks, yet they don't appear in the calculators at all, at least for the two Minoan samples in the preceding posts.

    Am I missing something?
    I mean, I am not contesting it. If anyone would be related ancestrally to Minoans it would have to be Greeks, or people from around that region. But I do not see evidence to back it up?

    In the calculators I have seen Southern Italians (off memory I believe one of them was Palermo Trapani, could be misremembering) on MTA fall the closest to Minoans, from the results some Italian members have shared in this forum. Would be revealing if some of the Greek members ran calculators to see this hypothesis tested.

    I ran mine for and Log 4 was the closest followed by Log 2, the other samples were quite far away. The results are in this thread.
    The "Greek" sample in Dodecad doesn't account for all Greeks. The sample set is limited, and doesn't represent all modern populations. There are in fact Greeks that are closer to Minoans than these Jews:




    Frankly, it is a bit odd to insist that these African Jewish populations are close to Minoans when:


    A: the study dismisses African and Levantine admixture in Minoans. Which are elements that distinguish these Jews from Minoans.


    B: Their autosomal admixture is very different as I have shown in previous posts.


    C: These calculators are not estimating IBD. This is just measuring how far the algorithm places them on the PCA plot. Which is why it requires mental gymnastics to understand that it doesn't make sense.

    Also, Southern Italians are closer to Mycenaeans, not Minoans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The "Greek" sample in Dodecad doesn't account for all Greeks. The sample set is limited, and doesn't represent all modern populations. There are in fact Greeks that are closer to Minoans than these Jews:




    Frankly, it is a bit odd to insist that these African Jewish populations are close to Minoans when:


    A: the study dismisses African and Levantine admixture in Minoans. Which are elements that distinguish these Jews from Minoans.


    B: Their autosomal admixture is very different as I have shown in previous posts.


    C: These calculators are not estimating IBD. This is just measuring how far the algorithm places them on the PCA plot. Which is why it requires mental gymnastics to understand that it doesn't make sense.

    Also, Southern Italians are closer to Mycenaeans, not Minoans.

    A: that isn't needed for similarity

    B: as you can see from the distances they are all far away.

    C: that is a point. the paper of this thread has a graphic with fst distances for Minoan samples. there modern greeks are closest, followed by italians and then levant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    A: that isn't needed for similarity

    B: as you can see from the distances they are all far away.

    C: that is a point. the paper of this thread has a graphic with fst distances for Minoan samples. there modern greeks are closest, followed by italians and then levant.
    Do you have a reading comprehension problem? That is what I have been saying.

    Also check your attitude, because you are one step away from being thrown out of here. This is your final warning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Help me wrap my head around this.
    First there is no modern population close to Minoans, the closest are 4 Jewish groups, and even they are far.
    Then "some modern populations" are ancestral according to you, for example Greeks, yet they don't appear in the calculators at all, at least for the two Minoan samples in the preceding posts.

    Am I missing something?
    I mean, I am not contesting it. If anyone would be related ancestrally to Minoans it would have to be Greeks, or people from around that region. But I do not see evidence to back it up?

    In the calculators I have seen Southern Italians (off memory I believe one of them was Palermo Trapani, could be misremembering) on MTA fall the closest to Minoans, from the results some Italian members have shared in this forum. Would be revealing if some of the Greek members ran calculators to see this hypothesis tested.

    I ran mine for and Log 4 was the closest followed by Log 2, the other samples were quite far away. The results are in this thread.
    ArchetypeOne: As Jovialis noted, people whose ancestors are 100% South of Lazio (Southern Italian mainland and Sicily) are generally closer to Mycenaean Greeks. This is true for me which while is anecdotal evidence, I think my results are in line with what the extant research has shown and other folks here whose ancestors are from Campania, Calabria, Puglia, Basilicata and Sicily. Here are 4 calculators where I used my NAT GENO DNA, which is supposed to be capture ancient DNA history if I remember correctly (they shut down DNA sample collections). While there are differences across the 4 Calculators, all of them are consistent with me being closer to Mycenaeans vs. Minoans.

    Dodecad K7

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani_NATGENO
    3.58104733 Mycenaean:I9041
    5.59454198 Mycenaean:I9033
    6.94345735 Mycenaean:I9006
    11.52864259 Mycenaean:I9010
    13.83789363 Minoan_Lasithi:I0071
    14.23595799 Minoan_Odigitria:I9130
    15.19697009 Minoan_Lasithi:I0074
    16.87355623 Minoan_Odigitria:I9127
    16.88117591 Minoan_Odigitria:I9129
    16.98849905 Minoan_Lasithi:I0073
    18.23899668 Minoan_Lasithi:I9005
    19.00771685 Minoan_Lasithi:I0070
    19.94972180 Minoan_Odigitria:I9131
    20.09297638 Minoan_Odigitria:I9128

    Dodecad Global 13

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani_NATGENO
    8.22581303 Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese_ :I9041
    9.21547611 Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete_:I9123
    11.49940868 Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponne se_:I9033
    11.93504085 Log02
    14.02505258 Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese_ :I9010
    15.49826765 Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis_:I9006
    15.84660216 Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province_:I2495
    17.75115489 Kou03
    18.12690818 Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_ Crete_:I0071
    18.26382490 Kou01
    18.74373495 Pta08
    18.88493315 Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province_:I2499
    18.91741261 Mik15
    19.35323746 Log04
    20.47262074 Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_ Crete_:I0074
    20.99498035 Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_: I9130
    21.18151317 Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province_:I2683
    21.91315587 Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_: I9128
    22.07728924 Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_: I9131
    22.21065285 Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_ Crete_:I9005
    22.25308518 Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_ Crete_:I0073
    22.90734380 Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_: I9129
    23.12924988 Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_ Crete_:I0070
    23.15987478 Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_:I2937
    27.74930990 Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete_: I9127

    Dodecad K12

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani_NATGENO
    11.04334641 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    11.72534434 I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    11.93793952 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese
    12.58136320 MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log02
    13.41464871 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese
    18.20228008 I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
    18.23089137 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete
    18.37221544 EBA_Helladic_Manika:Mik15
    19.10626599 I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    19.20580641 MBA_Helladic_Logkas:Log04
    20.25517712 EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou03
    20.34000246 EBA_Minoan_Petras:Pta08
    20.88118771 I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    20.90179657 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    21.67007845 EBA_Cyclade_Koufanisi:Kou01
    26.98719511 I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete
    31.95776431 I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete

    Eurogenes K13

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani_NATGENO
    9.54838730 I9041_Greece_Mycenaean_3250_ybp
    10.18505768 I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_
    11.29046058 Greece_MBA_Log02
    14.31854741 EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03
    14.34987108 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
    14.91310162 I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
    15.93369700 I9005_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
    19.95983216 Greece_MBA_Log04
    20.14409839 I0071_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
    20.54011441 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
    20.97182157 Greece_MBA_Mik15
    21.20804093 I2499_Anatolia_EBA_4604_ybp
    21.23122465 EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01
    21.26966384 Greece_EBA_Pta08
    22.38982581 I2495_Anatolia_EBA_4377_ybp
    23.13734643 I0074_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
    24.05961554 I0073_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
    25.74974369 I2937_Greece_Peloponnese_N_7359_ybp

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    Thanks for sharing the results Palermo. It seems I remembered you correctly. Just mixed up Myceneans with Minoans. My bad.

    Jovialis you answered all my questions. Agree with all of the points.
    Just want to make clear I am not insisting that these "African Jewish populations are close to Minoans". Was more of an observation on the calculators, whom as you recall we both criticized earlier in the thread for the same reason you pointed out in the graphical posts. I really don't know why my post is being interpreted that way. Just wanted to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

    Alichu thanks for pointing out I forgot about that graphic of the paper. The thread is quite old. Must have confused it with some other thread I have been active in recently.

    PS: Palermo, it still blows my mind your genetic distance to those Myceneans given the timeframe, everytime I see your calculator results. Truly astounding. I do not even have that close of a distance on most calculators using 1 way calculation to my own modern reference people (IIRC).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Thanks for sharing the results Palermo. It seems I remembered you correctly. Just mixed up Myceneans with Minoans. My bad.

    Jovialis you answered all my questions. Agree with all of the points.
    Just want to make clear I am not insisting that these "African Jewish populations are close to Minoans". Was more of an observation on the calculators, whom as you recall we both criticized earlier in the thread for the same reason you pointed out in the graphical posts. I really don't know why my post is being interpreted that way. Just wanted to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

    Alichu thanks for pointing out I forgot about that graphic of the paper. The thread is quite old. Must have confused it with some other thread I have been active in recently.

    PS: Palermo, it still blows my mind your genetic distance to those Myceneans given the timeframe, everytime I see your calculator results. Truly astounding. I do not even have that close of a distance on most calculators using 1 way calculation to my own modern reference people (IIRC).
    ArchetypeOne: Your welcome. Those calculators are all in agreement with my MTA results as well. I get deep dive matches for I9041 (Mycenean, 83% closer than matching users), Minoan I0073 (78% closer than matching users), I9006 (Mycenean, 69% closer than other matching users), I0071 (Minoan, 46% closer to other matching users), I0005 (Minoan, 32% closer), , I0074 (Minoan, 23% closer) and I0070 (Minoan, 9% closer). The MTA results below use a combined Ancestry/23Me file which Gedmatch allows you to to. Unfortunately, I can't run my NATGENO through MTA due to formatting of the data that I saved from their site.

    Some of those new ancient Greek samples are now at MTA, I get some deep dives with them as well:

    Early Helladic Manika Euboa Island Greece, 2827 BC (MIK_wgs) 72% closer than other matching users.

    Ancient Petras SIteias Crete, 2735 BC, Pta_08wgs 71% closer.

    Early Helladic Manika Euboae Island Greece, 2827 BC MIK_wgs_trimp5bp, 25% closer

    With respect to these last 3 samples, I am not sure what the difference is between the 2 MIK_wgs. Did one sample not make it to the paper due to quality control?

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    @ Jovialis. I got an answer looking at the paper. What is your interpretation of this, since the country lines/modern populations are not demarkated.



    2 Things I take away are:

    1. Even North Italians and Albanians seem to be related to a) Myceneans and b) Lasinthi Minoans as much as mainland Greeks, however less than Greek Islanders / Sicilians.

    2. Albanians seem to be related to Minoan Odigritia as much as Peloponnese Greeks. Both groups more than Greek Islanders (Marginally more than Crete, substantially more than Cyprus).

    Want your thoughts on this analysis. Might be a good checkup for any color blindness I might have.

    For better resolution. Even I am not too sure of the colors.







    Notice Canary Islands. LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    @ Jovialis. I got an answer looking at the paper. What is your interpretation of this, since the country lines/modern populations are not demarkated.



    2 Things I take away are:

    1. Even North Italians and Albanians seem to be related to a) Myceneans and b) Lasinthi Minoans as much as mainland Greeks, however less than Greek Islanders / Sicilians.

    2. Albanians seem to be related to Minoan Odigritia as much as Peloponnese Greeks. Both groups more than Greek Islanders (Marginally more than Crete, substantially more than Cyprus).

    Want your thoughts on this analysis. Might be a good checkup for any color blindness I might have.

    For better resolution. Even I am not too sure of the colors.







    Notice Canary Islands. LOL
    There's a lot of discussion on this graphic earlier in the thread. Their affinity has to do with overlapping source populations; i.e. levels of Anatolian_N and CHG. There are also issues with that graphic too, notice the south Italian sample is blue, yet we know there is a relatively high affinity compared to the others that are redder.

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    ^^Another aspect of the graphic that doesn't make sense is the fact that is shows that Anatolian_BA is closer to Northern Italian, than South Italian. Which is completely backwards, according to Raveane et al 2018.

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    Okay so now either or. Either this proves there is genetic continuity between Greeks and Myceneans and Minoans. Or it is just an overlap of Anatolian_N and CHG. Can not really have it both ways.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The "Greek" sample in Dodecad doesn't account for all Greeks. The sample set is limited, and doesn't represent all modern populations. There are in fact Greeks that are closer to Minoans than these Jews:


    C: These calculators are not estimating IBD. This is just measuring how far the algorithm places them on the PCA plot. Which is why it requires mental gymnastics to understand that it doesn't make sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Minoans are however ancestral to some modern populations, for example Modern Greeks.

    Knowing the Y DNA of my Maternal Grandfather was found in Heraklion Crete 4.9-3.9 kya, I have my own opinions. But lets be honest here. Some things are mutually exclusive.

    I would go on a rant that it is hard to just find pure bred (100%) Anatolian_N and CHG and just somehow go through the generational permutations to create a false positive, false positives mind you for populations that are historically known to have had population movements as well as trade connections. That's a rabbit hole I am not willing to go down on.




    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    There are also issues with that graphic too, notice the south Italian sample is blue, yet we know there is a relatively high affinity compared to the others that are redder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^Another aspect of the graphic that doesn't make sense is the fact that is shows that Anatolian_BA is closer to Northern Italian, than South Italian. Which is completely backwards, according to Raveane et al 2018.


    Alas. there are three populations in South Italy, two around Palermo, one gulf of Taranto. Two of them have more affinity with these ancient populations than North Italians.

    Nevertheless, I am not here to defend these guys
    I am sure peer reviewers did that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Okay so now either or. Either this proves there is genetic continuity between Greeks and Myceneans and Minoans. Or it is just an overlap of Anatolian_N and CHG. Can not really have it both ways.








    Knowing the Y DNA of my Maternal Grandfather was found in Heraklion Crete 4.9-3.9 kya, I have my own opinions. But lets be honest here. Some things are mutually exclusive.

    I would go on a rant that it is hard to just find pure bred (100%) Anatolian_N and CHG and just somehow go through the generational permutations to create a false positive, false positives mind you for populations that are historically known to have had population movements as well as trade connections. That's a rabbit hole I am not willing to go down on.










    Alas. there are three populations in South Italy, two around Palermo, one gulf of Taranto. Two of them have more affinity with these ancient populations than North Italians.

    Nevertheless, I am not here to defend these guys
    I am sure peer reviewers did that.
    WTF are you even talking about? I have it both ways? I just told you there was problems with the graphic. North Italians are not closer to Anatolian_BA than South Italians. Nor are they closer to Myceneans, and Minoans than south Italians. I AM NOT THE ONE USING THIS GRAPHIC TO PROVE ANYTHING!

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    Why don't you read the study, instead of having me explain it to you? That is not what I am here for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    WTF are you even talking about? I have it both ways? I just told you there was problems with the graphic. North Italians are not closer to Anatolian_BA than South Italians. Nor are they closer to Myceneans, and Minoans than south Italians. I AM NOT THE ONE USING THIS GRAPHIC TO PROVE ANYTHING!
    Listen to the lecture video part with Lazaridis, he explains the issue with that graphic. FST is affected by genetic drift.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Do you have a reading comprehension problem? That is what I have been saying.

    Also check your attitude, because you are one step away from being thrown out of here. This is your final warning.
    and my point was that the numbers from Dodecad can make sense and that the simple fact that jewish people have a different autosomal composition doesn't negate this, because every modern population has a different autosomal composition too. if there is Natufian or not doesn't matter if you don't also look at the exotic admixtures in the other populations.

    i mentioned the Fst graphics to support your point not to attack you. but of course, it's not proof that the numbers of Dodecad make no sense. you question the Fst values yourself. Drift probably has a strong effect especially in jewish populations.
    Last edited by Ailchu; 15-05-21 at 13:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post

    Nevertheless, I am not here to defend these guys
    I am sure peer reviewers did that.
    Are you implying that peer reviewers are biased toward the Greek continuity theory and Lazaridis et al, in opposition to ethical and scientific principles? That sounds conspiratorial.

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    Ok, I wanted to add that most of Mycenean-like DNA in Peloponnese comes from Classical Greeks themselves because there was never any substantial alternation in the population of Peloponesse with some people very similar to old Greeks genetically.

    But for places like Macedonia it's different because Thracians were very numerous there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Are you implying that peer reviewers are biased toward the Greek continuity theory and Lazaridis et al, in opposition to ethical and scientific principles? That sounds conspiratorial.
    The what now? Where did you get such a wild idea?
    The paper is in line with exactly what I am saying... Just look at the graphics. I am not the one saying 10 + world renowned geneticist don't have a clue and made mistakes in their graphics.

    Please re read my posts, and when you find me "Implying that peer reviewers are biased toward the Greek continuity theory and Lazaridis et al, in opposition to ethical and scientific principles? That sounds conspiratorial." quote it in your reply.

    Else stop slandering me ad hominem, and start looking at my arguments here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    The what now? Where did you get such a wild idea?
    The paper is in line with exactly what I am saying... Just look at the graphics. I am not the one saying 10 + world renowned geneticist don't have a clue and made mistakes in their graphics.
    Please re read my posts, and when you find me "Implying that peer reviewers are biased toward the Greek continuity theory and Lazaridis et al, in opposition to ethical and scientific principles? That sounds conspiratorial." quote it in your reply.
    Else stop slandering me ad hominem, and start looking at my arguments here.
    There is no mistake, it is because of genetic drift. Which is why you can really compare ancient to modern populations solely with FST, and not cross examine with other tools, and disciplines. Please see the lecture video, as the main author clarifies why the graphic is as such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    There is no mistake, it is because of genetic drift. Which is why you can really compare ancient to modern populations solely with FST, and not cross examine with other tools, and disciplines. Please see the lecture video, as the main author clarifies why the graphic is as such.
    Could you provide a timestamp, lack 2+ hours right now. Will watch the whole thing later.

    Did they discuss the Canary Islands? Or North Italians and Albanians for that matter?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @ 1: 27 : 00 around that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    The what now? Where did you get such a wild idea?
    The paper is in line with exactly what I am saying... Just look at the graphics. I am not the one saying 10 + world renowned geneticist don't have a clue and made mistakes in their graphics.

    Please re read my posts, and when you find me "Implying that peer reviewers are biased toward the Greek continuity theory and Lazaridis et al, in opposition to ethical and scientific principles? That sounds conspiratorial." quote it in your reply.

    Else stop slandering me ad hominem, and start looking at my arguments here.
    Sorry, but if I want to libel/slander you I would make a direct accusation, not ask a question. I would have also said “is” conspiratorial instead of “sounds.” It’s not my intention. Peer reviewers are supposed to ensure published papers meet scientific standards, not defend them regardless of accuracy or veracity, which is how I interpreted the statement.

    Eurogenes has a new post about Greek/Aegean continuity, saying though it probably exists it has not been proven thus far, or something like that. Technically that may be correct, because we don’t have samples from key post-Mycenaean eras, or we have few, like Empuries. But we can still question hypotheses, such as Anatolia Neolithic ancestry in modern Greeks is a result of other similar people completely replacing ancient Greeks. That would be quite a feat, if true.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    @ 1: 27 : 00 around that time.
    Thanks.

    So: "Genetic drift... I do not think there is anything particularly weird going on with South Italy." Lazaridis 1:30:00

    1:25-1:26:30 Was particularly revealing. Since he describes what we can and can't deduce using these specific methods in correlation with an appropriate sample size. And also how genetic samples differ from other samples.

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    ^^No problem

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