Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Demetrios]

The discussion for Dorian invasion, migration, or revolution remains open.....depending on who they were and where they came from ....that will provide clues for language association.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Doric is already classified. There is no open chapter in terms of that. It was a Greek dialect, with a number of sub-branches. And by the way, i personally support that there was a southward migration of Dorians from the Pindus mountain range, as is also explained in this post. I don't agree with the hypothesis that Dorians were living among the Mycenaeans.

 

[blevins13]

Doric is already classified. There is no open chapter in terms of that. It was a Greek dialect, with a number of sub-branches. And by the way, i personally support that there was a southward migration of Dorians from the Pindus mountain range, as is also explained in this post. I don't agree with the hypothesis that Dorians were living among the Mycenaeans.

So how the urnfield burials came south? It seems that they have spread after XII BC.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Yetos]

So how the urnfield burials came south? It seems that they have spread after XII BC.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Source and Data plz

 

[blevins13]

Source and Data plz

Frano Prendi findings in Maliq, we have discussed them in past.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[blevins13]

Frano Prendi findings in Maliq, we have discussed them in past.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

At about the end of the second millennium B.C., southern Balkans experienced sizable population movements which some have called Doric invasion, some others Illyrian invasion, and others have used other names. The invaders were a group of people that are identified to have brought urnfield cultur south. Krahe (1955) had indicated that the Illyrians were the bearers of this culture which had developed by the fusion of the Danubian Yamnaya cultures. Elements of this civilization, reached Albania towards the end of the Bronze Age. (The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume III, Part 1, 2008, p. 228)......but

Archeologists Frano Prendi summarized the evidence and the scope of impact of migratory waves at the end of Bronze Age that Albanian territories had faced: In this transitional period which was to last some three centuries with each century providing new elements in its material culture, several components are discernible: the autochthonous tradition, elements of sub-Mycenaean and Proto-Geometric civilization, and elements of Cental European origin which were spread through Albania by the second wave of the Pannono-Balkan migration (end of the twelfth and the eleventh centuries B.C.). This wave, unlike the first, had a marked influence on Albania, although only in some areas.

In spite of the special influence of the Urnfield civilization which played an important role in the enrichment of the Early Iron Age civilization in Albania, especially in the south, one must emphasize that it did not impose any essential difference on the autochthonous foundation of Albanian civilization, and even less on the ethnic structure of the population.



But I believe it also impacted the ethnic structure of the population.



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Yetos]

At about the end of the second millennium B.C., southern Balkans experienced sizable population movements which some have called Doric invasion, some others Illyrian invasion, and others have used other names. The invaders were a group of people that are identified to have brought urnfield cultur south. Krahe (1955) had indicated that the Illyrians were the bearers of this culture which had developed by the fusion of the Danubian Yamnaya cultures. Elements of this civilization, reached Albania towards the end of the Bronze Age. (The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume III, Part 1, 2008, p. 228)......but

Archeologists Frano Prendi summarized the evidence and the scope of impact of migratory waves at the end of Bronze Age that Albanian territories had faced: In this transitional period which was to last some three centuries with each century providing new elements in its material culture, several components are discernible: the autochthonous tradition, elements of sub-Mycenaean and Proto-Geometric civilization, and elements of Cental European origin which were spread through Albania by the second wave of the Pannono-Balkan migration (end of the twelfth and the eleventh centuries B.C.). This wave, unlike the first, had a marked influence on Albania, although only in some areas.

In spite of the special influence of the Urnfield civilization which played an important role in the enrichment of the Early Iron Age civilization in Albania, especially in the south, one must emphasize that it did not impose any essential difference on the autochthonous foundation of Albanian civilization, and even less on the ethnic structure of the population.



But I believe it also impacted the ethnic structure of the population.



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

The descet of Grego-Brygian from lets say primary Vucedol
is at about a millenium before the descent of Celto-Illyrians to Illyria proprie from Noricum
the last Migration pushed Brygians to Central Makedonia and then to minor Asia,
and Greeks (Dorians) to South Greece.

the ones called Illyrians of proprie must be around 1300-900 BC
the descent of Dorians is about 911 BC +- max 150 years
the last known devastation of Bryges inside Central Makedonia is the Mygdones somewhere around 750 BC
and surely is connected with Greek 1rst colonization


It was the coming of Illyrians proprie that triggered the devastations of Dorians to South and Bryges to East.

 

[blevins13]

The descet of Grego-Brygian from lets say primary Vucedol
is at about a millenium before the descent of Celto-Illyrians to Illyria proprie from Noricum
the last Migration pushed Brygians to Central Makedonia and then to minor Asia,
and Greeks (Dorians) to South Greece.

the ones called Illyrians of proprie must be around 1300-900 BC
the descent of Dorians is about 911 BC +- max 150 years
the last known devastation of Bryges inside Central Makedonia is the Mygdones somewhere around 750 BC
and surely is connected with Greek 1rst colonization


It was the coming of Illyrians proprie that triggered the devastations of Dorians to South and Bryges to East.

You don’t know this....this is hypothetical.
So who brought urnfield burial in Greece.....Shepards from the mountains of Epirus? And they brought the Mycenaean down and after they decided that the shepherd life was not for them. Ridiculous.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Yetos]

You don’t know this....this is hypothetical.
So who brought urnfield burial in Greece.....Shepards from the mountains of Epirus? And they brought the Mycenaean down and after they decided that the shepherd life was not for them. Ridiculous.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Just because you do not remember, does make it ridiculous,

we have discuss this before, remember, the East Olympus Mycenean cemetery,
and I have provided you even maps,
Yes Mycenean have both kinds of tombs,

Greco-Brygian came around +-2400 BC
Ceto-Illyrians came around Kadmeians, after Mycenae collapse, probably around +-1100 from Noricum Austria
and they pull the trigger of Dorian descent and Brygian devastation,
which later triggered of 1rst colonization

Accept it or not?
Ridiculous or Serious
It is a fact, and true timing.

 

[blevins13]

Just because you do not remember, does make it ridiculous,

we have discuss this before, remember, the East Olympus Mycenean cemetery,
and I have provided you even maps,
Yes Mycenean have both kinds of tombs,

Greco-Brygian came around +-2400 BC
Ceto-Illyrians came around Kadmeians, after Mycenae collapse, probably around +-1100 from Noricum Austria
and they pull the trigger of Dorian descent and Brygian devastation,
which later triggered of 1rst colonization

Accept it or not?
Ridiculous or Serious
It is a fact, and true timing.

Yetos, this is not who came first, is what makes sense. Time will show who is right. So for the record, who brought urnfield in south, Mycenaean or Dorians (shepherds) from the mountains of Epirus.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Shahmiri]

Who were Minoans?

For example:

Individual_ID: I9127
Date: 2900-1900 BCE
Population_Label: Minoan_Odigitria
mtDNA: J2b1a1

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J_mtDNA.shtml

J2b1a : found in western Europe, Germany, Scandinavia, Poland and Russia / found in Neolithic Alsace
J2b1a1 : found in Britain, Ireland, France, Germany and Poland.

>> J2b1a, a lineage typically found in Russia and western Europe, but absent from or rare in the Near East.

>> J2b1a1 could have spread by either R1a or R1b Indo-Europeans, or both.

It seems Minoans were actually Indo-European, not Mycenaeans (of course according to the steppe theory)!

 

[bigsnake49]

The only evidence we have that the Dorians came down from the Pindus mountains is Herodotus and he lived at least 600 years after the fact plus he weaves in myths about the return of the Heraclidae. Herodotus is being deprecated as new genetic and archaeological evidence comes out. I think of him as a travelogue that took down the stories that were told to him.

 

[Jovialis]

Who were Minoans?

For example:

Individual_ID: I9127
Date: 2900-1900 BCE
Population_Label: Minoan_Odigitria
mtDNA:

J2b1a1

​

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J_mtDNA.shtml

It seems Minoans were actually Indo-European, not Mycenaeans (of course according to the steppe theory)!​

Minoans cluster with Peloponnesus_N, they were predominately Anatolian_N, with some eastern-shift via Anatolia. Myceneans are shifted towards the Steppe, compared to Minoans, due to their steppe admixture.

It makes absolutely no sense to say Minoans are IE, but Mycenaeans were not actually Indo-European, because their culture, and language was Indo-European. Even if you apply it to steppe admixture, they have some, compared to Minoans who had none, and even if you don't apply it to steppe, they are basically the same in their other genetic components. I don't understand your position.

As it stands, the Steppe theory for the dispersal of Indo-Europeans (genetics, culture, language) is the most widely accepted theory. Perhaps there could have been an exception with Myceneans, who could have acquired their steppe genetics via Armenia. This is currently unresolved.

 

[blevins13]

​

Minoans cluster with Peloponnesus_N, they were predominately Anatolian_N, with some eastern-shift via Anatolia. Myceneans are shifted towards the Steppe, compared to Minoans, due to their steppe admixture.

It makes absolutely no sense to say Minoans are IE, but Mycenaeans were not actually Indo-European, because their culture, and language was Indo-European. Even if you apply it to steppe admixture, they have some, compared to Minoans who had none, and even if you don't apply it to steppe, they are basically the same in their other genetic components. I don't understand your position.

As it stands, the Steppe theory for the dispersal of Indo-Europeans (genetics, culture, language) is the most widely accepted theory. Perhaps there could have been an exception with Myceneans, who could have acquired their steppe genetics via Armenia. This is currently unresolved.

Armenia!!!!!! I thought it was Vucidol???? It seems that you have an agenda similar to mine.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Jovialis]

Armenia!!!!!! I thought it was Vucidol???? It seems that you have an agenda similar to mine.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

I haven't been following the thread to understand what you mean by that. But these are screencaps from a lecture Lazaridis gave about the paper. Here was a thread we have on it:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...nter-for-Study-of-Ancient-Mediterranean/page2

 

[blevins13]

The only evidence we have that the Dorians came down from the Pindus mountains is Herodotus and he lived at least 600 years after the fact plus he weaves in myths about the return of the Heraclidae. Herodotus is being deprecated as new genetic and archaeological evidence comes out. I think of him as a travelogue that took down the stories that were told to him.

And back to Herodotus....in the Pindus mountains. Too bad that the scientists are working so slow on this. Greece is the cradle of the Europe Civilization, it should have priority.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Yetos]

The only evidence we have that the Dorians came down from the Pindus mountains is Herodotus and he lived at least 600 years after the fact plus he weaves in myths about the return of the Heraclidae. Herodotus is being deprecated as new genetic and archaeological evidence comes out.

Not only,
It is also the Makedonian Dynasty of Karanos,
It is the Spartan system of 2 kings, etc
Even Aristoteles description for Dodona.

and we have archaiological evidence of Brygians from Skodra to Edessa to Mygdonia,
and is just about same time max 1 century.

Dorian primitive dialect belong to NWestern Greek diallects,
They were from the stuff of Dodonaios Zeus from the (S)Elloi,
and most possible is upper Thessaly area of modern Trikala.

the Dorian descent is according

1) Athenaum Historical myth, I think Thoukidides mention Atheneans spoke like Lemneans Pelasgian language, Before the Dorians

2) the 1 of 2 Spartan Kings,

3) The return of Temenides

4) The Makedonian Kingdom dynasty of Karanos and his descent to Peloponese before return to mt Olymp

5) the moves of Brygians

It is most possible that Dorians might be from upper Thessaly as Herodotus say (TΡιχακες-πολη Τρικκη)
Yet might be from Makedonians and Epirotans and 'primitive' Greeks
the mention of Herodotus as Δωριειες φυλλον Ελληνικον
possibly comes from Selloi, (Notice salt - Αλας, Selios - Ηλιος etc reject of a IE sound before long vowels infront the word)
and Ollossoi who lived at the South of Olymp,

only the strong Α is enough to say that their origins were areas of proto-Greek, among NW dialects and Makedonian.

Yet we do not see marks of devastation and battles,
so probably Dorians might starting descent after collapse of Mycenae,
and around 900 BC their nobility ask for the power,

the changes on every day life style, from Architecture to pottery decoration,
is a mark of change elites and entrance to archaic era.

Notice,

North of Olymp
Pier-ia
Mak-edonia
low Mycenean influence

South of Olymp
Perraevia
Mag-nesia
bigger Mycenean influence

More North of Olymp
Myg-donia
now Mycenean influence
Gortyna

Crete
Gortyna

my Aftermath

since Dorian is connected with NW Dialects, which from their part are connected with the very primitive Makedonian,
It is evidence that Dorians due really devastate and descent South,
Yet this started after Mycenean collapse and descent of Illyrians from Noricum and in accordance of Brygians to Mygdonia
and all before 1rst colonization,
But after a time, an elite ask the power, claiming origins from the myth of Hercules,
and prevail to change of lifestyle of wider areas,
So when Temenides descent south to Peloponese,
Dorian population already existed there as paysants and woodcutters,
after Mycenae collapse,
but the new elite claiming ancestry from Temenos,
started rebuild a style, the one called Doric
Temenides started rebuilding cities and restart industries.

 

[blevins13]

I haven't been following the thread to understand what you mean by that. But these are screencaps from a lecture Lazaridis gave about the paper. Here was a thread we have on it:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...nter-for-Study-of-Ancient-Mediterranean/page2

I am wrong to believe that eastern model is more probable considering Mycenaean low steppe.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Jovialis]

I am wrong to believe that eastern model is more probable considering Mycenaean low steppe.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Nobody knows for certain which model is accurate.

I think it is possible that they could have come from the north, with steppe already diluted. Take Etruscans, Latins, and the Protovillanovan for example, in Italy.

 

[Shahmiri]

Minoans cluster with Peloponnesus_N, they were predominately Anatolian_N, with some eastern-shift via Anatolia. Myceneans are shifted towards the Steppe, compared to Minoans, due to their steppe admixture.

It makes absolutely no sense to say Minoans are IE, but Mycenaeans were not actually Indo-European, because their culture, and language was Indo-European. Even if you apply it to steppe admixture, they have some, compared to Minoans who had none, and even if you don't apply it to steppe, they are basically the same in their other genetic components. I don't understand your position.

As it stands, the Steppe theory for the dispersal of Indo-Europeans (genetics, culture, language) is the most widely accepted theory. Perhaps there could have been an exception with Myceneans, who could have acquired their steppe genetics via Armenia. This is currently unresolved.

Other than Mycenaean, it seems Hittite, Luwian, Mitanni (Indo-Iranian) and all other ancient known Indo-European cultures were also exceptions. I think those who still believe in the Steppe theory which was proposed in the 19th century, want to fool themselves. Haplogroup of those who migrated to Greece about 2,000 BC is J2, not R1b. They were not Minoans because we know Minoans lived there from at least 3,000 BC.

Just look at the map of Haplogroup J2:

It has low frequencies in the southwest of Iran where ancient Elamites and modern Arabs live, like in Iraq, Syria, Jordan and other lands were Arabs also live, it has also low frequencies in Finland, Estonia and other lands where Uralic people live, look at north of Spain and southwest of France where Basques live, it has a low frequency in these regions too.
But in India, Iran, Central Asia, Anatolia, north of Iraq and Syria (land of Kurds), Greece, Italy and even Sweden and all other lands where Indo-Europeans have lived, it has a high frequency.

 

[bigsnake49]

Not only,
It is also the Makedonian Dynasty of Karanos,
It is the Spartan system of 2 kings, etc
Even Aristoteles description for Dodona.

and we have archaiological evidence of Brygians from Skodra to Edessa to Mygdonia,
and is just about same time max 1 century.

Dorian primitive dialect belong to NWestern Greek diallects,
They were from the stuff of Dodonaios Zeus from the (S)Elloi,
and most possible is upper Thessaly area of modern Trikala.

the Dorian descent is according

1) Athenaum Historical myth, I think Thoukidides mention Atheneans spoke like Lemneans Pelasgian language, Before the Dorians

2) the 1 of 2 Spartan Kings,

3) The return of Temenides

4) The Makedonian Kingdom dynasty of Karanos and his descent to Peloponese before return to mt Olymp

5) the moves of Brygians

It is most possible that Dorians might be from upper Thessaly as Herodotus say (TΡιχακες-πολη Τρικκη)
Yet might be from Makedonians and Epirotans and 'primitive' Greeks
the mention of Herodotus as Δωριειες φυλλον Ελληνικον
possibly comes from Selloi, (Notice salt - Αλας, Selios - Ηλιος etc reject of a IE sound before long vowels infront the word)
and Ollossoi who lived at the South of Olymp,

only the strong Α is enough to say that their origins were areas of proto-Greek, among NW dialects and Makedonian.

Yet we do not see marks of devastation and battles,
so probably Dorians might starting descent after collapse of Mycenae,
and around 900 BC their nobility ask for the power,

the changes on every day life style, from Architecture to pottery decoration,
is a mark of change elites and entrance to archaic era.

The prevailing theory right now is that we don't know if there was such a descent. Every time they looked for markers that supposedly were Dorian they found that they were autochthonous. So the experts are baffled. Absent new archaeological and/or genetic evidence we cannot say. Also remember that after the collapse of the Myceneans for 2-3 centuries there was no written language until the advent of Phoenecian alphabet. So be patient my friend.