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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Sorry, but if I want to libel/slander you I would make a direct accusation, not ask a question. I would have also said “is” conspiratorial instead of “sounds.” It’s not my intention. Peer reviewers are supposed to ensure published papers meet scientific standards, not defend them regardless of accuracy or veracity, which is how I interpreted the statement.

    Eurogenes has a new post about Greek/Aegean continuity, saying though it probably exists it has not been proven thus far, or something like that. Technically that may be correct, because we don’t have samples from key post-Mycenaean eras, or we have few, like Empuries. But we can still question hypotheses, such as Anatolia Neolithic ancestry in modern Greeks is a result of other similar people completely replacing ancient Greeks. That would be quite a feat, if true.
    Indeed, it seems like a misunderstanding from both our sides. I was neither defending nor criticizing the researchers, combined they probably have longer CVs in the field than all my posts in this thread. Hence I am not qualified to cast criticism on their methods, of which I have superficial understanding. I was simply interpreting their data, which reading the paper is 100% in line with what I said in my posts. Hence why I thought you were slandering me, saying that I am some conspiracy theorists accusing them of bias. Sure I could criticize them on something if I was properly trained in the field and knew what I was talking about, but I guarantee that if you read my posts at no point I did.

    Yeah the Eurogenes development is interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    yes
    i now saw that would be cool

    A said...Is this the Greek paper you mentioned a while ago, or is there another one coming out?
    May 14, 2021 at 4:19 AM

    Davidski said...There's at least one more paper coming soon about Greece or the Balkans and Greece, with samples from the Iron Age, Classical period, Middle Ages, etc.


    Davidski said...Greeks do have Cypriot-like ancestry, it's just that it's not necessarily from Cyprus.

    This is obvious by looking at modern Greek DNA vs Mycenaean DNA.

    But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.

    PS:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Eurogenes has a new post about Greek/Aegean continuity, saying though it probably exists it has not been proven thus far, or something like that. Technically that may be correct, because we don’t have samples from key post-Mycenaean eras, or we have few, like Empuries. But we can still question hypotheses, such as Anatolia Neolithic ancestry in modern Greeks is a result of other similar people completely replacing ancient Greeks. That would be quite a feat, if true.
    That was indeed my point some posts ago. And if we can take the current data to prove genetic continuity for Greeks to these samples, a big if till we get more samples and publications, then we would have to clump Sicilians, North Italians(?) and Albanians in that group as well. Else that would be the bias I was being accused of.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Sorry, but if I want to libel/slander you I would make a direct accusation, not ask a question. I would have also said “is” conspiratorial instead of “sounds.” It’s not my intention. Peer reviewers are supposed to ensure published papers meet scientific standards, not defend them regardless of accuracy or veracity, which is how I interpreted the statement.

    Eurogenes has a new post about Greek/Aegean continuity, saying though it probably exists it has not been proven thus far, or something like that. Technically that may be correct, because we don’t have samples from key post-Mycenaean eras, or we have few, like Empuries. But we can still question hypotheses, such as Anatolia Neolithic ancestry in modern Greeks is a result of other similar people completely replacing ancient Greeks. That would be quite a feat, if true.
    He's just grasping at straws since the "Slavic Theory house of cards" is crumbling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    He's just grasping at straws since the "Slavic Theory house of cards" is crumbling.
    Now I am interested. What is this Slavic Theory?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Now I am interested. What is this Slavic Theory?
    You know what it is, and it's almost dead. Back in the grave with Fallmerayer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    You know what it is, and it's almost dead. Back in the grave with Fallmerayer.
    I tried googling, the only thing I found was "https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/11/slavic-like-medieval-germans.html"... That cant be it given we are talking about Minoans and Myceneans. To lazy to go over thousands of comments just to find out some theory that as you say seems to be the butt of a joke.

    Edit: Nvm, searched fallmerayer and I think I got what's up.

    Edit2: After checking this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-900-AD)/page2 ... I would not say its almost dead. It was never alive to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Now I am interested. What is this Slavic Theory?
    Well My take on the "Slavic Theory" is that it is a Slavic version of the Nordicist or WASP theory regarding the two great civilizations of European Antiquity, Greece and Rome. It is just hard,, its a hard, its harrrrrrd (to borrow from Joan Baez's version of A Hard Rain's -Gonna Fall") for some folks to have those civilizations being Southern Europeans, whose ancestry is predominantly Anatolian EEF and Not Steppe Herder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Well My take on the "Slavic Theory" is that it is a Slavic version of the Nordicist or WASP theory regarding the two great civilizations of European Antiquity, Greece and Rome. It is just hard,, its a hard, its harrrrrrd (to borrow from Joan Baez's version of A Hard Rain's -Gonna Fall") for some folks to have those civilizations being Southern Europeans, whose ancestry is predominantly Anatolian EEF and Not Steppe Herder.
    Since I ran out of upvotes. Yeah it makes sense. Having tried to watch genetic history videos on youtube I get fremdschämen reading some comments or even analyze my own posts and attitude from years ago. And it is not even just limited to Slavs, Nordicists etc, feel you can find such nuts on any tree. Bit hard to see it from people who clearly know their ways around the Y Tree and Autosomal genetics, that always felt weird. At least I could blame my younger self on ignorance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Well My take on the "Slavic Theory" is that it is a Slavic version of the Nordicist or WASP theory regarding the two great civilizations of European Antiquity, Greece and Rome. It is just hard,, its a hard, its harrrrrrd (to borrow from Joan Baez's version of A Hard Rain's -Gonna Fall") for some folks to have those civilizations being Southern Europeans, whose ancestry is predominantly Anatolian EEF and Not Steppe Herder.
    To be honest, in school, at least in my case, we were taught that ancient Greeks or Romans were Southern European. Therefore, I think Nordicism is an internet phenomenon or more present in the USA. Plus, Italy is still exporting lots of great things all over the world and has a pretty strong industry.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think the Fallmerayer theory is actually equally offensive to Slavs. Because it implies that the "glorious ancestry" Ancient Greek, was supplanted by the "inferior ancestry", Slavs. Which Nazis would use to rationalize why Greece is not as prominent as it was in antiquity. It is actually Slavophobic, which is ironic for a pro-slav to employ it.

    Fallmerayer's theory was popular as part of the Nazi propaganda in Axis occupied Greece (1941–1944) during World War II, when classically educated Nazi officers used it as an excuse to commit numerous atrocities against the Greek population.[61]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Philipp_Fallmerayer

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    To be honest, in school, at least in my case, we were taught that ancient Greeks or Romans were Southern European. Therefore, I think Nordicism is an internet phenomenon or more present in the USA. Plus, Italy is still exporting lots of great things all over the world and has a pretty strong industry.
    It is true that most regular people, not involved in pop gen, already assume that the Greeks and Romans are southern Europeans, which genetics proves is true. They know better than some of these self-appointed expert-hobbyists, who pollute their minds with propaganda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    He's just grasping at straws since the "Slavic Theory house of cards" is crumbling.
    The impact of Slavs seem to be higher now than it was back in 2017.
    For example many of us assumed a northern shift in Peloponnese after the Bronze Age collapse, that likely did not happen considering the Empuries sample.
    Second many of us assumed the impact of say northern neighbors like Thracians, but 2 different samples prove that they were not that northern either.
    And third many of us assumed that Slavs were Polish-like yet there are rumours that they were Serb or even Romanian-like (not to say those rumours are correct).

    So yes this nearly complete replacement Fallmerayer theory is out of question, but let's not ignore what is REALLY happening here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    [1]The impact of Slavs seem to be higher now than it was back in 2017.
    For example many of us assumed a northern shift in Peloponnese after the Bronze Age collapse, that likely did not happen considering the Empuries sample.
    Second many of us assumed the impact of say northern neighbors like Thracians, but 2 different samples prove that they were not that northern either.
    [2]And third many of us assumed that Slavs were Polish-like yet there are rumours that they were Serb or even Romanian-like (not to say those rumours are correct).

    So yes this nearly complete replacement Fallmerayer theory is out of question, but let's not ignore [3]what is REALLY happening here.
    1. Why?
    2. Any evidence to support such rumors, personally I have seen none. But its not like I was looking.
    3. What is really happening?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    1. Why?
    2. Any evidence to support such rumors, personally I have seen none. But its not like I was looking.
    3. What is really happening?
    1.)
    You asked why for something that I answered above in what you quoted me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    1.)
    You asked why for something that I answered above in what you quoted me.
    Tbh I don't get it. So because Thracians, and Illyrians might not have been "that" northern shifted as compared to Slavo Baltic populations, or genetically polar opposites of these Aegean ancient peoples, in a region like the Balkans where God knows how many migrations have happened in the last 3-4k years, it means that the theory that Slavs were the cause of it in modern Greeks? Is that how I am to interpret the quote you said answered my question ? It was a genuine question, cause I did not see the quote of you as an answer. But whatever.

    Edit: Seeing what you think is an answer for my 1), I lost interest in 2), and 3).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Indeed, it seems like a misunderstanding from both our sides. I was neither defending nor criticizing the researchers, combined they probably have longer CVs in the field than all my posts in this thread. Hence I am not qualified to cast criticism on their methods, of which I have superficial understanding. I was simply interpreting their data, which reading the paper is 100% in line with what I said in my posts. Hence why I thought you were slandering me, saying that I am some conspiracy theorists accusing them of bias. Sure I could criticize them on something if I was properly trained in the field and knew what I was talking about, but I guarantee that if you read my posts at no point I did.

    Yeah the Eurogenes development is interesting.




    PS:



    That was indeed my point some posts ago. And if we can take the current data to prove genetic continuity for Greeks to these samples, a big if till we get more samples and publications, then we would have to clump Sicilians, North Italians(?) and Albanians in that group as well. Else that would be the bias I was being accused of.
    It’s very interesting with Albanians, who have substantial EEF/Anatolia Neolithic ancestry and appear indigenous going back to ancient times. Ancient Greek historians said the Hellenes grew large and powerful due to absorption of different non-Hellenic peoples. These peoples, including earlier Greeks, may still form a significant part of modern south Balkan ancestry. Greeks were very populous in the region. Something has to account for the relatively high Anatolia Neolithic input.

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    Davidiski:

    (2017) I can't wait for more ancient DNA from Greece and Italy, especially from the Bronze and Iron Ages. Based on my experiences with many Greeks and Italians, it's sure to be a big eye opener for them, and a beautiful thing...

    (2021)
    To me this suggests that most present-day Greeks harbor significant levels of Slavic ancestry and some sort of recent Cypriot-related ancestry, and in large part they're only coincidentally similar to ancient Aegeans, including those from the MBA (labeled Greece_Helladic_MBA in my graphs).
    TBH, This seems like bias to me.

    A beautiful thing? That's a bizarre thing to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The impact of Slavs seem to be higher now than it was back in 2017.
    For example many of us assumed a northern shift in Peloponnese after the Bronze Age collapse, that likely did not happen considering the Empuries sample.
    Second many of us assumed the impact of say northern neighbors like Thracians, but 2 different samples prove that they were not that northern either.
    And third many of us assumed that Slavs were Polish-like yet there are rumours that they were Serb or even Romanian-like (not to say those rumours are correct).

    So yes this nearly complete replacement Fallmerayer theory is out of question, but let's not ignore what is REALLY happening here.
    Many people on these types of forums keep lauding the Empuries samples as some sort of Gold Standard for "Greekness." I believe these colonists came from Phocaea--which was in Asia Minor for crying out loud. Not to mention the fact the this city had already fallen under Persian rule; not to mention the fact that the native Iberian-type people were already Mycenaean-like.

    Many of these anthro-nerds are very quick to label any Greek outside modern Greece as "Hellenized" yet in pretty much the same breath will cite the Empuries. Somehow, given the above, only these "pure ancient Greeks" survived trip and settlement across almost the entire Med unmolested LOL

    The northern influence is western, not eastern Balkan (not to say that there was no contact with Thracians). Even today the eastern side of the Balkans is more Med than the western.

    And rumors don't count for anything.

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    SO this is the "beautiful thing" according to Davidiski? Because of his experiences with Greeks?



    It is a beautiful thing to try prove a theory that Nazis used as an excuse to kill people in Greece?

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    SO this is the "beautiful thing" according to Davidiski? Because of his experiences with Greeks?



    It is a beautiful thing to try prove a theory that Nazis used as an excuse to kill people in Greece?
    This seems logical considering history sources.
    Let’s leave the Nazis out of this discussion. Triggering emotions does not help rational discussions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    This seems logical considering history sources.
    Let’s leave the Nazis out of this discussion. Triggering emotions does not help rational discussions.

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    That's funny, because you are defending a person that seemingly wants this to be the case, because of his "experience". In spite of what academic studies say, including the one this thread is based on. That sounds emotive to me. That doesn't sound rational or unbias, actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    It’s very interesting with Albanians, who have substantial EEF/Anatolia Neolithic ancestry and appear indigenous going back to ancient times. Ancient Greek historians said the Hellenes grew large and powerful due to absorption of different non-Hellenic peoples. These peoples, including earlier Greeks, may still form a significant part of modern south Balkan ancestry. Greeks were very populous in the region. Something has to account for the relatively high Anatolia Neolithic input.
    Thing is Albanians and Greeks are on a genetic continuum. Neither one or the other have substantially more EEF/Anatolian Neolithic admixture, in fact Greeks have slightly more.






    You can check most studies providing PCAs, autosomal admixtures, or even amateur PCAs some Greek members on Anthrogenica are kind enough to provide, I personally was overlapping with some members.


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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    That's funny, because you are defending a person that seemingly wants this to be the case, because of his "experience". In spite of what academic studies say, including the one this thread is based on. That sounds emotive to me. That doesn't sound rational or unbias, actually.
    I am not defending this person, I am say that what he said seems rational considering the history of the region. If you say that sllav migration left no trace in the modern Greeks that will be un logical, and why that happened. To prove him wrong samples will be needed from Mycenaean till Modern Greece. Leave Nazis out of this.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I am not defending this person, I am say that what he said seems rational considering the history of the region. If you say that sllav migration left no trace in the modern Greeks that will be un logical. To prove him wrong samples will be needed from Mycenaean till Modern Greece. Leave Nazis out of this.


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    He is not saying they left no trace, he is saying they are heavily Slavic, combined with recent-Cypriots, which is preposterous.


    Why? It is a theory promoted by them, so I think it is salient to the conversation. The Fallmerayer theory was promoted by Nazis to abuse Greeks for apparent Slavic admixture, it is a fact.


    It wasn't just Greeks, but other Slavs and Slav-mixed people in the Balkans were brutally murdered by Nazis, because they were considered sub-human.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I am not defending this person, I am say that what he said seems rational considering the history of the region. If you say that sllav migration left no trace in the modern Greeks that will be un logical, and why that happened. To prove him wrong samples will be needed from Mycenaean till Modern Greece. Leave Nazis out of this.


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    To prove him wrong, who is he? God?

    I trust more in what the actual papers say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Are you implying that peer reviewers are biased toward the Greek continuity theory and Lazaridis et al, in opposition to ethical and scientific principles? That sounds conspiratorial.
    PS: It is funny people upvoted (+2) the quoted comment. When I wasn't implying anything really. Cause Lazaridis conclusion as I said already many times, agrees with my interpretation of the data, the issue was I saw the comments in this thread and only the supplements, not reading the verbatim agreement, and getting in arguments due to some highly nuanced comments.

    If you put one egg in the basket, put them all.


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