Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Demetrios]

I am wrong to believe that eastern model is more probable considering Mycenaean low steppe.


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Mycenaens didn't have low steppe, these are of course relative terms. Plus, the paper suggests that the steppe component most likely came from the north. From the supplementary information of the paper, "we do notice that the model 79%Minoan_Lasithi+21%Europe_LNBA tends to share more drift with Mycenaeans". Last, of course in the paper they mention both possibilities in terms of migrational routes (Anatolian and Northern), but the evidence points to a route from the north, not a one from Anatolia in terms of proto-Greeks IEs.

 

[Philjames100]

Corrected.

 

[Demetrios]

At about the end of the second millennium B.C., southern Balkans experienced sizable population movements which some have called Doric invasion, some others Illyrian invasion, and others have used other names. The invaders were a group of people that are identified to have brought urnfield cultur south. Krahe (1955) had indicated that the Illyrians were the bearers of this culture which had developed by the fusion of the Danubian Yamnaya cultures. Elements of this civilization, reached Albania towards the end of the Bronze Age. (The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume III, Part 1, 2008, p. 228)......but

Archeologists Frano Prendi summarized the evidence and the scope of impact of migratory waves at the end of Bronze Age that Albanian territories had faced: In this transitional period which was to last some three centuries with each century providing new elements in its material culture, several components are discernible: the autochthonous tradition, elements of sub-Mycenaean and Proto-Geometric civilization, and elements of Cental European origin which were spread through Albania by the second wave of the Pannono-Balkan migration (end of the twelfth and the eleventh centuries B.C.). This wave, unlike the first, had a marked influence on Albania, although only in some areas.

In spite of the special influence of the Urnfield civilization which played an important role in the enrichment of the Early Iron Age civilization in Albania, especially in the south, one must emphasize that it did not impose any essential difference on the autochthonous foundation of Albanian civilization, and even less on the ethnic structure of the population.



But I believe it also impacted the ethnic structure of the population.



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At the end of the 2nd millennium BCE the Balkans experienced multiple migrations, not just one, hence the many names which are meant to differentiate the aforementioned people. Anyway, the wave that came from central Europe seems to have pushed the indigenous Dorians of north-western Greece/southern Albania, and the indigenous Phrygians of central Albania/Macedonia south and east respectively. I also agree with Frano Prendi above, and let me emphasize that the sub-Mycenaean and proto-Geometric elements mentioned pertain to Greeks obviously, that were later pushed down. The only quote i don't agree with above, unless it is meant geographically, is the term "Albanian civilization".

 

[Johane Derite]

At the end of the 2nd millennium BCE the Balkans experienced multiple migrations, not just one, hence the many names which are meant to differentiate the aforementioned people. Anyway, the wave that came from central Europe seems to have pushed the indigenous Dorians of north-western Greece/southern Albania, and the indigenous Phrygians of central Albania/Macedonia south and east respectively. I also agree with Frano Prendi above, and let me emphasize that the sub-Mycenaean and proto-Geometric elements mentioned pertain to Greeks obviously, that were later pushed down. The only quote i don't agree with above, unless it is meant geographically, is the term "Albanian civilization".

What indigenous phyrgians in Albania or central macedonia? Their entrance into Albania, North Epirus, North Macedonia and Macedonia is dated around ~1,200 BC, and via Kosovo.

 

[Shahmiri]

Mycenaens didn't have low steppe, these are of course relative terms. Plus, the paper suggests that the steppe component most likely came from the north. From the supplementary information of the paper, "we do notice that the model 79%Minoan_Lasithi+21%Europe_LNBA tends to share more drift with Mycenaeans". Last, of course in the paper they mention both possibilities in terms of migrational routes (Anatolian and Northern), but the evidence points to a route from the north, not a one from Anatolia in terms of proto-Greeks IEs.

Explain it to others not me, you say in 2,000 BC Minoans lived in the island of Crete but Indo-Europeans (Greeks) lived in Mycenae/Argolis in this period, in fact they were two different people in two different lands but now you say that Mycenaeans got about 80% of their ancestry from Minoans, how is it possible?

 

[Demetrios]

What indigenous phyrgians in Albania or central macedonia? Their entrance into Albania, North Epirus, North Macedonia and Macedonia is dated around ~1,200 BC, and via Kosovo.

Phrygians migrated to Asia Minor in the period between 1,200-800 BCE, although the ancient Greek authors recorded traditions that place Phrygians first inhabiting Macedonia and southern Illyria, as well as reports of Brygian (Phrygian) surviving pockets in those areas. The Ohrid and Prespa lakes seem to have been the original Graeco-Phrygian boundary. In central Albania for example we have records of Brygians inhabiting the region around Epidamnus/Dyrrachium during the Archaic period, obviously a surviving pocket.

 

[Johane Derite]

The archeology shows the "Brygian" sites appearing ~1200BC in Albania, North Epirus, Macedonia. They weren't there before, and their culture is compared to Lusatian, which pulls them way north.

The archaeology connecting phrygians and brygians also dates to this time ~1,200 BC. This makes sense as when Phrygians, Mysians, Dardanians would have moved south, some into Dardania, Albania, Macedonia, and some into Anatolia.

Incessantly repeating "Greco-Brygian" won't make it a thing.

 

[Yetos]

Explain it to others not me, you say in 2,000 BC Minoans lived in the island of Crete but Indo-Europeans (Greeks) lived in Mycenae/Argolis in this period, in fact they were two different people in two different lands but now you say that Mycenaeans got about 80% of their ancestry from Minoans, how is it possible?

We do not know the language of Minoans,

since we can not read Linear A we assume that were not IE.

 

[Demetrios]

Explain it to others not me, you say in 2,000 BC Minoans lived in the island of Crete but Indo-Europeans (Greeks) lived in Mycenae/Argolis in this period, in fact they were two different people in two different lands but now you say that Mycenaeans got about 80% of their ancestry from Minoans, how is it possible?

Mycenaeans, and Greeks in general mostly have a pre-Greek (pre-steppe) autosomal profile. The ones who brought the proto-Greek language in the Helladic peninsula didn't affect autosomally the indigenous population considerably (again relative terms). So, by Minoan they refer to the autosomal profile that existed prior of the arrival of the steppe component to Greece, which seems to have had a similar autosomal profile to the Minoans of Crete. They ran some models and it seems that the 79% Minoan_Lasithi + 21% Europe_LNBA tends to share more drift with Mycenaeans.

 

[Yetos]

The archeology shows the "Brygian" sites appearing ~1200BC in Albania, North Epirus, Macedonia. They weren't there before, and their culture is compared to Lusatian, which pulls them way north.

The archaeology connecting phrygians and brygians also dates to this time ~1,200 BC. This makes sense as when Phrygians, Mysians, Dardanians would have moved south, some into Dardania, Albania, Macedonia, and some into Anatolia.

Incessantly repeating "Greco-Brygian" won't make it a thing.

That is impossible,

Brygian-Phrygian is the only isoglosses language with Greek,
no matter Greek is connected with Armenian to some scholars
Greek and Brygian are isoglosses languages,
which means that Greek and Brygian might evolute from same language (Greco-Brygian) or had the same substractum

So if Brygians came from Lusatia at 1200 BC
while being isotones to Greek,
that means that also Greek came from Lusatia nearby time,
which is impossible

the devastation of Brygians around 1200 BC to Central Makedonia and then to minor Asia until 750 BC (fall of Edessa to Makedonians)
is connected with what is called Dorian descent and Greek first colonization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Greek_migrations

Both happens same times and centuries,
which means that proto-Brygian and proto-Greek prexisted for centuries, or even came from the same language (sice isoglosses)
so it is impossible Brygian to enter S Balkans around 1200 BC

 

[Demetrios]

The archeology shows the "Brygian" sites appearing ~1200BC in Albania, North Epirus, Macedonia. They weren't there before, and their culture is compared to Lusatian, which pulls them way north.

The archaeology connecting phrygians and brygians also dates to this time ~1,200 BC. This makes sense as when Phrygians, Mysians, Dardanians would have moved south, some into Dardania, Albania, Macedonia, and some into Anatolia.

Incessantly repeating "Greco-Brygian" won't make it a thing.

Phrygians have no linguistic affinity with the people that inhabited that region, namely the region of the Lusatian culture. So, what Nicholas Hammond and Eugene N. Borza write, in terms of archaeological similarities to the Lusatian culture is very probably due to the LBA/EIA upheaval that saw multiple migrations take place, and thus having affected those regions. It doesn't mean that Phrygians didn't live in those exact regions during the Bronze Age. Brygians are even described as a Thracian tribe by Herodotus, therefore a lot of confusion after their mass migration.

 

[Johane Derite]

Thats not true. Non greek Semele for example has northern parallels in baltic and slavic.

Regardless, Phrygian is attested fragmentarily, known only from a comparatively small corpus of inscriptions. A few hundred Phrygian words are attested; however, the meaning and etymologies of many of these remain unknown.

Greco-Brygian isn't some sort of certain thing, its one theory, which is contested.

Herodotus mentions Brygians of thrace as in brygians living in thrace geographically.

 

[Demetrios]

The archeology shows the "Brygian" sites appearing ~1200BC in Albania, North Epirus, Macedonia. They weren't there before, and their culture is compared to Lusatian, which pulls them way north.

The archaeology connecting phrygians and brygians also dates to this time ~1,200 BC. This makes sense as when Phrygians, Mysians, Dardanians would have moved south, some into Dardania, Albania, Macedonia, and some into Anatolia.

Incessantly repeating "Greco-Brygian" won't make it a thing.

Plus, the archaeological evidence is too meager. Moreover, Borza sounds as if he is making a speculative interpretation rather than a direct assessment of the physical data. Last, Borza himself states that there exists an extremely slight archaeological record. I haven't seen what Hammond claims, only brought up his name because of what Wikipedia mentions.

 

[Johane Derite]

Plus, the archaeological evidence is too meager. Moreover, Borza sounds as if he is making a speculative interpretation rather than a direct assessment of the physical data. Last, Borza himself states that there exists an extremely slight archaeological record. I haven't seen what Hammond claims, only brought up his name because of what Wikipedia mentions.

I'm going by Hammond. Here you have some parts from his writing in Cambridge ancient history: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ardano-Brygian?p=606319&viewfull=1#post606319

 

[Demetrios]

I'm going by Hammond. Here you have some parts from his writing in Cambridge ancient history: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ardano-Brygian?p=606319&viewfull=1#post606319

I just read those pages, and it seems to me that much of what he shares in respect to their distribution, is not purely based on actual archaeological evidence, but in addition what we already know of the Brygians through the ancient Greek records. In a way generalizing the two. Then some other foreign archaeological elements aren't Lusatian either as he says. And again, i don't discard the migration of northern people in those regions during the Bronze Age collapse, but i don't find all these substantial for saying that Phrygians were Lusatian or Hallstatt people. As for the Phrygian lexicon, we have enough, far more than other palaeo-Balkan languages. Here is an extensive work on their lexicon, https://www.tesisenred.net/bitstream/handle/10803/650834/BOC_PhD_THESIS.pdf.

 

[blevins13]

Nobody knows for certain which model is accurate.

I think it is possible that they could have come from the north, with steppe already diluted. Take Etruscans, Latins, and the Protovillanovan for example, in Italy.

True but if the Mycenaean came from north (Danubian Basin) that should have brought some E-V13 with them. This paper did not reveal any isn’t that strange?


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[Demetrios]

True but if the Mycenaean came from north (Danubian Basin) that should have brought some E-V13 with them. This paper did not reveal any isn’t that strange?


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This paper only studied one male Mycenaean, therefore nothing strange. In any case, we may hypothesize that proto-Greeks could have brought with them a branch of E-V13, but this would be purely hypothetical at this point. Plus, most of E-V13 in Greeks belongs to later branches.

 

[Johane Derite]

I just read those pages, and it seems to me that much of what he shares in respect to their distribution, is not purely based on actual archaeological evidence, but in addition what we already know of the Brygians through the ancient Greek records. In a way generalizing the two. Then some other foreign archaeological elements aren't Lusatian either as he says. And again, i don't discard the migration of northern people in those regions during the Bronze Age collapse, but i don't find all these substantial for saying that Phrygians were Lusatian or Hallstatt people. As for the Phrygian lexicon, we have enough, far more than other palaeo-Balkan languages. Here is an extensive work on their lexicon, https://www.tesisenred.net/bitstream/handle/10803/650834/BOC_PhD_THESIS.pdf.

No, we dont have enough. That is a dishonest presentation of the matter.

 

[Demetrios]

No, we dont have enough. That is a dishonest presentation of the matter.

Ok, and you are the expert? The author published this in 2018 and includes every prior academic position that exists. And after going through everything himself, he also considers Greek the closest language to Phrygian (page 102, last paragraph or both pages 101-102).

 

[Shahmiri]

Mycenaeans, and Greeks in general mostly have a pre-Greek (pre-steppe) autosomal profile. The ones who brought the proto-Greek language in the Helladic peninsula didn't affect autosomally the indigenous population considerably (again relative terms). So, by Minoan they refer to the autosomal profile that existed prior of the arrival of the steppe component to Greece, which seems to have had a similar autosomal profile to the Minoans of Crete. They ran some models and it seems that the 79% Minoan_Lasithi + 21% Europe_LNBA tends to share more drift with Mycenaeans.

Do you mean there were two different migrations to Hellenic peninsula, not just Crete island? First there were some people who brought Minoan language from Iran/Caucasus to this land, and then some other people who brought the proto-Greek language? In fact Minoan was the same the Pre-Greek substrate and we should look for Pre-Greek words in Iran/Caucasus?
As you know less than fifty percent of the Greek lexicon has been confirmed to be Indo-European.