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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The Fallmerayer theory was promoted by Nazis to abuse Greeks for apparent Slavic admixture, it is a fact.
    So if the 'Fallmerayer theory' turned out to be correct, would that justify Nazi actions? No, obviously not, so it's irrelevant.

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    To prove him wrong, who is he? God?

    I trust more in what the actual papers say.
    He laid down a statement (an hypothesis), to prove that wrong, studies of the Greek population from Mycenaean to modern are needed. You said it yourself in other post “can compare modern with ancient”. You have to see what happened in between.


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    whatever, it's better to leave Nazi's out of the discussion, let's stick to the facts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    So if the 'Fallmerayer theory' turned out to be correct, would that justify Nazi actions? No, obviously not, so it's irrelevant.
    It is relevant when a man who dislikes Greeks uses sophistry to "prove it".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    He is not saying they left no trace, he is saying they are heavily Slavic, combined with recent-Cypriots, which is preposterous.


    Why? It is a theory promoted by them, so I think it is salient to the conversation. The Fallmerayer theory was promoted by Nazis to abuse Greeks for apparent Slavic admixture, it is a fact.


    It wasn't just Greeks, but other Slavs and Slav-mixed people in the Balkans were brutally murdered by Nazis, because they were considered sub-human.
    The mix of Nazis and genetic is explosive. People have different reason for defending or promoting a certain idea. It’s is more productive to focus on the idea true or wrong, than on the reasons. Depending what is considered heavy, I will expected high in lowlands and low in the mountains, as in Albania.


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    I think we might have gone off track, this thread feels a bit like facebook, youtube comments at this point.

    I think this thread needs a clean up for the last couple of comments.
    Jovialis you can even start with this one.
    Then we all can pick were we left off, discussing genetics.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I think we might have gone off track, this thread feels a bit like facebook, youtube comments at this point.

    I think this thread needs a clean up for the last couple of comments.
    Jovialis you can even start with this one.
    Then we all can pick were we left off, discussing genetics.
    I agree


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    We are not off track.

    We are discussing the eurogenes opinion of the formation of modern Greeks, that matches the Fallmerayer theory. If it makes people uncomfortable and triggered that Nazis believed it too, well I don't care. This is supposedly a beautiful thing according to Davidiski.

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    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    I am not uncomfortable at all. My mind is open. Even a broken clock can be right twice a day.
    So which part of the Davidski post do you disagree with?

    I haven't even read the Nazi propagandas or the author from the 1800s they were supporting since I do not need more propaganda in my life. If Lazaridis says that Greeks along with Albanians, Cypriots and Italians are closest to these ancient populations, I take the data, use my brain and come to the same conclusion.

    But now tell me beside the fact you think Nazis argued what Davidski is, what point of the quoted statement you posed you disagree with and why?

    Lazaridis argues there is Mycenean component.
    History tells us there were population swaps between Anatolia (Ottoman Empire) and Greece.
    We have historical sources for the Slavic migrations to the area.

    I am trying to wrap my head around which part of that statement is incorrect?

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    "That's a very optimistic view. In fact, there's no evidence whatsoever in the paper that there's even 1% genetic continuity between present-day Greeks and any ancient Greek population, let alone the MBA northern Aegeans." - Davidski

    That's some serious delusion. Not even 1%? LMAO. I wonder why he is so salty at Greeks. The name of the post too," beware of Greeks bearing gifts" . That is cringe.
    The very paper of this post proves some continuity.
    Then this paper "The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations" https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706 proves continuity, which he even quoted.
    Don't know what to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I am not uncomfortable at all. My mind is open. Even a broken clock can be right twice a day.
    So which part of the Davidski post do you disagree with?

    I haven't even read the Nazi propagandas or the author from the 1800s they were supporting since I do not need more propaganda in my life. If Lazaridis says that Greeks along with Albanians, Cypriots and Italians are closest to these ancient populations, I take the data, use my brain and come to the same conclusion.

    But now tell me beside the fact you think Nazis argued what Davidski is, what point of the quoted statement you posed you disagree with and why?

    Lazaridis argues there is Mycenean component.
    History tells us there were population swaps between Anatolia (Ottoman Empire) and Greece.
    We have historical sources for the Slavic migrations to the area.

    I am trying to wrap my head around which part of that statement is incorrect?
    Why do the academic studies support continuity, with only some dilution than? There is no doubt some admixture from Slavs. But to suggest that the authors are wrong, many of whom are not Greek (so you can't claim bias there), is frankly pathetic. Also, which Greeks are we talking about? There is no doubt more Slavic admixture in the north, but all modernGreeks? Furthermore, I'd like to see those historical sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    "That's a very optimistic view. In fact, there's no evidence whatsoever in the paper that there's even 1% genetic continuity between present-day Greeks and any ancient Greek population, let alone the MBA northern Aegeans." - Davidski

    That's some serious delusion. Not even 1%? LMAO. I wonder why he is so salty at Greeks. The name of the post too," beware of Greeks bearing gifts" . That is cringe.
    The very paper of this post proves some continuity.
    Then this paper "The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations" https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706 proves continuity, which he even quoted.
    Don't know what to say.
    See what I mean now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    That's some serious delusion. Not even 1%? LMAO. I wonder why he is so salty at Greeks. The name of the post too," beware of Greeks bearing gifts" .

    Davidski wrote in (2017) "I can't wait for more ancient DNA from Greece and Italy, especially from the Bronze and Iron Ages. Based on my experiences with many Greeks and Italians, it's sure to be a big eye opener for them, and a beautiful thing..."

    What ever his experiences are, I don't think he means it in a good way. Which is why I think he is being bias. This is a man who questions even 1% of continuity, as if the Ancient Greeks were all kidnapped by aliens, and the entire country was re-populated by Slavs and recent-Cypriots.

    He doesn't even consider the fact that maybe they don't line-up on the PCA, could be due partly to genetic drift. We have seen from the Iceland paper, that a population can markedly change from it's founder populations, without any admixture events, overtime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Why do the academic studies support continuity, with only some dilution than? There is no doubt some admixture from Slavs. But to suggest that the authors are wrong, many of whom are not Greek (so you can't claim bias there), is frankly pathetic. Also, which Greeks are we talking about? There is no doubt more Slavic admixture in the north, but all modernGreeks? Furthermore, I'd like to see those historical sources.
    Yo, Jovialis. I asked you about the quote. The quote didn't even mention continuity. I am not defending Davidski here. As you should know by now we kind of are backing the same horse(hypothesis) here.

    The quote stated Myceneans + Anatolians/Levant imigrants + Slavs.
    And it all checks out.
    As for the 0 genetic continuity from his other quotes, you can see my response to that in the previous post, aka :facepalm: .



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic...to_the_Balkans

    Let me know if you want more sources.

    PS: 1.22 Million "Orthodox Greeks" came from Anatolia in a single exchange as close to today as 1922. The 400 000 "Turkish Muslims" were mostly Albanians. You do the math 1.2/5.3mln how much dilution that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Yo, Jovialis. I asked you about the quote. The quote didn't even mention continuity. I am not defending Davidski here. As you should know by now we kind of are backing the same horse(hypothesis) here.

    The quote stated Myceneans + Anatolians/Levant imigrants + Slavs.
    And it all checks out.
    As for the 0 genetic continuity from his other quotes, you can see my response to that in the previous post, aka :facepalm: .



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic...to_the_Balkans

    Let me know if you want more sources.

    PS: 1.22 Million "Orthodox Greeks" came from Anatolia in a single exchange as close to today as 1922. The 400 000 "Turkish Muslims" were mostly Albanians.
    No, I was addressing that point, this study (Lazaridis et al. 2017) determines this:

    Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.

    We know from other places in the world, that just because these invasions and population movements happen, it doesn't mean there is a significant change to the population. For example, the Lombards did not leave much of a genetic impact on Northern Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    No, I was addressing that point, this study (Lazaridis et al. 2017) determines this:

    Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.

    We know from other places in the world, that just because these invasions and population movements happen, it doesn't mean there is a significant change to the population. For example, the Lombards did not leave much of a genetic impact on Northern Italy.
    Then I guess we are in agreement. Not that it matters when 2 papers now confirm what we both are saying.



    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...ure23310_0.pdf

    "Present-day Greeks - who also carry Steppe-related ancestry - share ~90% of their ancestry with MBA northern Aegeans, suggesting continuity between the two time periods."

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421003706

    See we can discuss these things without brining up Nazi's and their propaganda. And also future readers of the thread wont be confused and agitated by emotional appeals.
    Who really cares what some "anthropologist" in the 1800s said, or what Hitler used as propaganda to murder people.
    This way we separate the wheat from the chaff.

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    Jovialis
    Can you explain to me his (davidski)
    Motives u know he admire the steppe propganda and we were great r1a and all...
    But how does it connect to modern greeks
    They do have some slavic admixture and part
    Of there steppe should be partly from slavic migrations...
    Remember that davidski is polish ( west slav by himself)
    So how is he connected to fallmerayer propaganda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Then I guess we are in agreement. Not that it matters when 2 papers now confirm what we both are saying.



    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...ure23310_0.pdf

    "Present-day Greeks - who also carry Steppe-related ancestry - share ~90% of their ancestry with MBA northern Aegeans, suggesting continuity between the two time periods."

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421003706

    See we can discuss these things without brining up Nazi's and their propaganda. And also future readers of the thread wont be confused and agitated by emotional appeals.
    Who really cares what some "anthropologist" in the 1800s said, or what Hitler used as propaganda to murder people.
    This way we separate the wheat from the chaff.
    Pardon me, but there are no emotional appeals when pointing out that there are bias analysis from people like Eurogenes. I find the last part of your post condescending.

    We have actually been over this topic before in this thread, btw. It just needed to be clamped down on again.

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    The only emotional appeals I see are people that cry about subjects that make them uncomfortable, begging to change the topic.

    Just so people here don't think I am picking on the poor little German Nazis, there were plenty of Italians that murdered Slavs in the Balkans as well. Not a proud history!



    An emaciated male inmate suffering from severe malnutrition at the Italian Rab concentration camp on the island of Rab in what is now Croatia. This camp largely detained Slavs.

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    Now we can get back on topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    "That's a very optimistic view. In fact, there's no evidence whatsoever in the paper that there's even 1% genetic continuity between present-day Greeks and any ancient Greek population, let alone the MBA northern Aegeans." - Davidski

    That's some serious delusion. Not even 1%? LMAO. I wonder why he is so salty at Greeks. The name of the post too," beware of Greeks bearing gifts" . That is cringe.
    The very paper of this post proves some continuity.
    Then this paper "The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations" https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706 proves continuity, which he even quoted.
    Don't know what to say.
    I don’t really see anything wrong in what he says:

    Last paragraph:

    Obviously, it's fair enough to assume that there's been some genetic continuity in the Aegean from the Iron Age, Bronze Age, and even the Copper Age and Neolithic era to the present-day. But the point I'm making is that no one has yet proved this, or even attempted to measure it properly.




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    Greek continuity from the BA cannot be evaluated properly with the crumbs of data that has been made available so far. Data from IA to the Late Middle Ages is completely lacking. We only have a limited amount of BA samples, and modern samples from Greece (very few used in studies for some reason).

    The Antonio et al paper on Rome showed how modern results overlapping with IA or BA ones are not necessarily indicative of the former being descendant of the latter, as modern samples there overlap with IA and Republic-era results, but the intermediate periods show significant south-eastern and then north-western shifts. The authors attributed this to migrants from the East Mediterranean first, and from Central Europe later (which was not well-taken here I remember). So the overlap between IA and modern samples was at least partially coincidental. If we had from Rome, only the amount of data we have from Greece, many would now be speaking about genetic continuity from the Iron Age to today.

    So far, it can only be said that modern Greeks are among the European peoples who plot near samples from BA Greece. This hints, at the very least, to shared ancestry between modern Greeks and those samples, but this could be due to either modern Greeks descending of those BA populations, or of other populations that had similar ancestry components, or (more likely) both. But it does not prove either possibility. Just like in Rome, it may be that the modern and BA similarity has a more complex explanation.

    There are already small hints that favor a similar scenario in mainland Greece, while the islands may have been largely unaffected. We now know that Steppe-related ancestry arrived to the Aegean during MBA, as it is missing from earlier periods. Therefore, new samples from MBA mainland Greece likely represent some of the most Steppe-like prehistoric populations of the region, and such ancestry was almost certainly subsequently diluted through admixture with non-Steppe peoples of the Aegean. In fact, Mycenean samples of the Late Bronze Age already show diminished Steppe-related ancestry, and this trend probably continued through the IA and into Antiquity. So if the latest study showed that modern mainland Greeks can be modeled as the heavily Steppe MBA samples with some additional Steppe ancestry, it is probable that a larger Steppe-related component is required to model them with IA or Classical period Ancient Greeks, which would suggest important influxes from the north in subsequent periods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    Many people on these types of forums keep lauding the Empuries samples as some sort of Gold Standard for "Greekness." I believe these colonists came from Phocaea--which was in Asia Minor for crying out loud. Not to mention the fact the this city had already fallen under Persian rule; not to mention the fact that the native Iberian-type people were already Mycenaean-like.
    Many of these anthro-nerds are very quick to label any Greek outside modern Greece as "Hellenized" yet in pretty much the same breath will cite the Empuries. Somehow, given the above, only these "pure ancient Greeks" survived trip and settlement across almost the entire Med unmolested LOL
    The northern influence is western, not eastern Balkan (not to say that there was no contact with Thracians). Even today the eastern side of the Balkans is more Med than the western.
    And rumors don't count for anything.
    You can make excuses but nothing progressive to prove your case has ever been found since 2017. Maybe you are right but still but there is no evidence yet.
    Iberians were not at all Mycenaean-like even Bronze Age Sicilian were not LOL.
    I don't think Anatolian or Iberian admixture would help Classical Greeks come closer to Mycenaeans (assuming they were different) but that is just me.
    If those Empuries samples were more northern shifted they would be the Gold Standart for you.
    Last edited by ihype02; 16-05-21 at 12:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Yo, Jovialis. I asked you about the quote. The quote didn't even mention continuity. I am not defending Davidski here. As you should know by now we kind of are backing the same horse(hypothesis) here.

    The quote stated Myceneans + Anatolians/Levant imigrants + Slavs.
    And it all checks out.
    As for the 0 genetic continuity from his other quotes, you can see my response to that in the previous post, aka :facepalm: .



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic...to_the_Balkans

    Let me know if you want more sources.

    PS: 1.22 Million "Orthodox Greeks" came from Anatolia in a single exchange as close to today as 1922. The 400 000 "Turkish Muslims" were mostly Albanians. You do the math 1.2/5.3mln how much dilution that is.
    Do you know if by Anatolian migrants he means ancient/pre-turkic conquest Anatolians or the migrants of the population exchange ?
    If he means the latter... Probably he doesn't know that the majority of Western Anatolian/Ionian Greeks that were exchanged in 1923 descent from people from all over the Greek speaking world ( mostly from the Aegean Islands and the southern half of the mainland ) that poured there after the 17th century...

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