Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Demetrios]

Do you mean there were two different migrations to Hellenic peninsula, not just Crete island? First there were some people who brought Minoan language from Iran/Caucasus to this land, and then some other people who brought the proto-Greek language? In fact Minoan was the same the Pre-Greek substrate and we should look for Pre-Greek words in Iran/Caucasus?
As you know less than fifty percent of the Greek lexicon has been confirmed to be Indo-European.

We don't know where Minoan is classified, because we haven't yet deciphered the Linear A script. Only hypotheses exist, and one of them is the one i shared in a previous post (relating it to Hurro-Urartian). And yes, there have been multiple migrations to Greece. Neolithic farmers, very probably Anatolian IEs/Anatolian pre-IEs and Hurro-Urartians, and proto-Greeks after them.

 

[Johane Derite]

Ok, and you are the expert? The author published this in 2018 and includes every prior academic position that exists. And after going through everything himself, he also considers Greek the closest language to Phrygian (page 102, last paragraph or both pages 101-102).

Firstly, this is just one expert. Even the "Centum" nature of Phrygian is contested.

Secondly, he doesn't give any "Greco-Brygian" conclusion as you are presenting it. He says Greek is closer to Phrygian than Armenian is. Fair enough, but even this may be from intense Greek influence, given that many of the inscriptions are usually dual greek and phrygian and western anatolia was almost entierly hellenized linguistically, which is obvious evidence of intense contact.

He also specifically mentions, like me, that it is poorly attested and we do not have enough material, unlike your claim that we do.

 

[Demetrios]

Do you mean there were two different migrations to Hellenic peninsula, not just Crete island? First there were some people who brought Minoan language from Iran/Caucasus to this land, and then some other people who brought the proto-Greek language? In fact Minoan was the same the Pre-Greek substrate and we should look for Pre-Greek words in Iran/Caucasus?
As you know less than fifty percent of the Greek lexicon has been confirmed to be Indo-European.

As for the pre-Greek substrate amount, i do find this answer in Quora adequate, https://qr.ae/pNKw0a.

 

[Demetrios]

Firstly, this is just one expert. Even the "Centum" nature of Phrygian is contested.

Secondly, he doesn't give any "Greco-Brygian" conclusion as you are presenting it. He says Greek is closer to Phrygian than Armenian is. Fair enough, but even this may be from intense Greek influence, given that many of the inscriptions are usually dual greek and phrygian and western anatolia was almost entierly hellenized linguistically, which is obvious evidence of intense contact.

He also specifically mentions, like me, that it is poorly attested and we do not have enough material, unlike your claim that we do.

His "if Phrygian were not so poorly attested" reference has to do with the reconstruction of the proto-Greco-Phrygian stage of the language. Just like we need plenty of data for the reconstruction of PIE, that doesn't mean we cannot classify languages and the level of their affinity. Plus, his last reference has to do mainly with his conclusion of Phrygian being closer to Greek than Armenian, not in general with any other language. Furthermore, Phrygian didn't only come in contact with Greek, but several Anatolian languages (Hittite, Luwian, Lydian, and Lycian), Assyrian, Aramaic, Old Persian, Elamite, Galatian, and Latin. And we also have Phrygian material beginning from the 8th century BCE. Here is also an interesting table showing some Phrygian features and their commonality to a number of surrounding languages.

 

[Shahmiri]

We don't know where Minoan is classified, because we haven't yet deciphered the Linear A script. Only hypotheses exist, and one of them is the one i shared in a previous post (relating it to Hurro-Urartian). And yes, there have been multiple migrations to Greece. Neolithic farmers, very probably Anatolian IEs/Anatolian pre-IEs and Hurro-Urartians, and proto-Greeks after them.

So you believe Minoans originally lived in Syria where Hurro-Urartians lived? Urartians migrated to Nairi (Armenia) in the 1st millennium BC, the first Urartian kings also called this land Nairi but later they renamed it to Bianili/Vanili (Van).

Crete island covers about 6% of the total area of Greece, ancient Minoans were those who lived in this island, not other parts of Greece, there is a big difference between a minor migration to Crete and a mass migration to whole Greece and western Anatolia, this study says before this migration Greece and western Anatolia were dominated by Y-chromosome haplogroup G2 but after it, in both regions most of haplogroups became J. It certainly didn't relate to Minoans of Crete.

 

[Riverman]

So you believe Minoans originally lived in Syria where Hurro-Urartians lived? Urartians migrated to Nairi (Armenia) in the 1st millennium BC, the first Urartian kings also called this land Nairi but later they renamed it to Bianili/Vanili (Van).
Crete island covers about 6% of the total area of Greece, ancient Minoans were those who lived in this island, not other parts of Greece, there is a big difference between a minor migration to Crete and a mass migration to whole Greece and western Anatolia, this study says before this migration Greece and western Anatolia were dominated by Y-chromosome haplogroup G2 but after it, in both regions most of haplogroups became J. It certainly didn't relate to Minoans of Crete.

Minoans seem to be the best reference around right now. The same component which reached Crete spread much further, but at a lower level. Its related to the spread of the Iranian-like component in the Eastern Mediterranean. To some places Indo-Europeans from the North and these Iranian-like people from the East came in almost at the same time, independently first, together later.

 

[Demetrios]

So you believe Minoans originally lived in Syria where Hurro-Urartians lived? Urartians migrated to Nairi (Armenia) in the 1st millennium BC, the first Urartian kings also called this land Nairi but later they renamed it to Bianili/Vanili (Van).
Crete island covers about 6% of the total area of Greece, ancient Minoans were those who lived in this island, not other parts of Greece, there is a big difference between a minor migration to Crete and a mass migration to whole Greece and western Anatolia, this study says before this migration Greece and western Anatolia were dominated by Y-chromosome haplogroup G2 but after it, in both regions most of haplogroups became J. It certainly didn't relate to Minoans of Crete.

No, Minoans are largely indigenous to the Aegean (~62–86%), with the exception of that "eastern" (Caucasus/Iran-related) or CHG (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer) autosomal component mentioned in the paper that ranges between ~9-32%. Their linguistic classification is another matter, and currently hypothetical. The similar autosomal profile of the Greek mainland to that of Crete, is a purely genetic matter, and yes, prior of the IE proto-Greek arrival and its subsequent branches that moved south, much of the central and southern Greek mainland seems to have had an Anatolian linguistic presence (be it IE, pre-IE, or Hurro-Urartian). As for Hurro-Urartians, they lived in a broad region encompassing northern Syria, eastern Anatolia, and Transcaucasia. Plus, i believe you have misunderstood what i shared in relation to the Mycenaeans being modeled as a mix of Minoan_Lasithi and Europe_LNBA. Minoan_Lasithi doesn't pertain necessarily to actual Minoans from Crete, but a similar autosomal profile that existed on the mainland.

 

[Hawk]

Only one Y-DNA reveal of Myceneans is nothing, we need atleast 10 - 20 from different sites so we have a robust model on their ancestry.

If we exclude Y-DNA J2a as a Minoan-like/Aegean/Pelasgian influence then we can hypothetically extract the Y-DNA of IE Myceneans as R1b mainly and maybe some E-V13 subclade. Though some Greeks say E-V13 is not a Greek Y-DNA. All it's left is to wait for ancient DNA.

 

[Yetos]

So you believe Minoans originally lived in Syria where Hurro-Urartians lived? Urartians migrated to Nairi (Armenia) in the 1st millennium BC, the first Urartian kings also called this land Nairi but later they renamed it to Bianili/Vanili (Van).
Crete island covers about 6% of the total area of Greece, ancient Minoans were those who lived in this island, not other parts of Greece, there is a big difference between a minor migration to Crete and a mass migration to whole Greece and western Anatolia, this study says before this migration Greece and western Anatolia were dominated by Y-chromosome haplogroup G2 but after it, in both regions most of haplogroups became J. It certainly didn't relate to Minoans of Crete.

that is not, lets say, so correct,
Minoan had colonies at Egypt Syrria Palaestine etc
even Makedonia the Bottiea one
Thessaly the Skotoyssa
Thera island etc

as also Crete had other populations too,
Like eteo-Cretans

 

[Yetos]

Only one Y-DNA reveal of Myceneans is nothing, we need atleast 10 - 20 from different sites so we have a robust model on their ancestry.

If we exclude Y-DNA J2a as a Minoan-like/Aegean/Pelasgian influence then we can hypothetically extract the Y-DNA of IE Myceneans as R1b mainly and maybe some E-V13 subclade. Though some Greeks say E-V13 is not a Greek Y-DNA. All it's left is to wait for ancient DNA.

?????????????

that is a conclussion?
after Lazarides papper?

 

[Shahmiri]

Minoans seem to be the best reference around right now. The same component which reached Crete spread much further, but at a lower level. Its related to the spread of the Iranian-like component in the Eastern Mediterranean. To some places Indo-Europeans from the North and these Iranian-like people from the East came in almost at the same time, independently first, together later.

This study actually talks about Modern Armenia/Azerbaijan and Northwest of Iran (Mugan plain) as the source of this migration, in fact an ancient land in the east of Nairi (Lake Van area) which was called Mukania in the ancient Akkadian sources. Mycenae is also from Ancient Greek Μυκῆναι (Mukênai): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Mycenae

Ancient records of Assyria and Babylonia, Volume 1, By Luсkenbill D.D., page 278: https://books.google.com/books?id=4...aQKHT9xCzgQ6AEwCnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

These people were Mukanians (Mycenaeans), not Mionans.

 

[Demetrios]

This study actually talks about Modern Armenia and Northwest of Iran as the source of this migration, in fact an ancient land in the east of Nairi (Lake Van area) which was called Mukania in the ancient Akkadian sources. Mycenae is also from Ancient Greek Μυκῆναι (Mukênai): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Mycenae

Ancient records of Assyria and Babylonia, Volume 1, By Luсkenbill D.D., page 278: https://books.google.com/books?id=4...aQKHT9xCzgQ6AEwCnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

These people were Mukanians (Mycenaeans), not Mionans.

I had that very same discussion with another Iranian some 10 months ago, and bear in mind, in a period that i was a proponent of the Transcaucasian origin of PIE. I still didn't view Mukana as the origin of Mycenae. Plus, the word "Mycenae" simply refers to a powerful citadel/region in north-eastern Peloponnese, neither the capital city of what we have contemporarily termed Mycenaean civilization, nor a historical collective ethnonym. Mycenaean citadels/regions were all independent from each other, while real collective ethnonyms for the Mycenaeans, as preserved through the Homeric Epics, the Hittite records, and the Egyptian records, were the ethnonyms "Achaeans", "Danaans", and "Argives". And besides that, Mycenaeans were only one branch of ancient Greeks, namely the Achaeans, certainly not all the Greeks. Last, that record you cite above is from 735 BCE, namely several centuries after the foundation of Mycenae in Greece. Forget the fact that Mycenaean Greek is dialectal Greek, and a rather evolved dialectal Greek, meaning not the closest to proto-Greek.

I suspect you are the same "MojtabaShahmiri" getting critized in the Wikipedia talk page of the "Mycenae" article for trying to postulate an Iranian origin for Mycenaeans, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AMycenaean_Greece. As Florian Blaschke wrote to you, the linguistic distance between Greek and Indo-Iranian is too large to suggest something like that, and there is no known trace of (pre-Indo-Iranian or not, centum or not) IE speakers on the Iranian Plateau in 2000 BCE, sorry to say. The Mitanni appeared 500 years later and their IE component is clearly Indo-Iranian. Mukania is far too late and random soundalikes prove nothing.

 

[Shahmiri]

I had that very same discussion with another Iranian some 10 months ago, and bear in mind, in a period that i was a proponent of the Transcaucasian origin of PIE. I still didn't view Mukana as the origin of Mycenae. Plus, the word "Mycenae" simply refers to a powerful citadel/region in north-eastern Peloponnese, neither the capital city of what we have contemporarily termed Mycenaean civilization, nor a historical collective ethnonym. Mycenaean citadels/regions were all independent from each other, while real collective ethnonyms for the Mycenaeans, as preserved through the Homeric Epics, the Hittite records, and the Egyptian records, were the ethnonyms "Achaeans", "Danaans", and "Argives". And besides that, Mycenaeans were only one branch of ancient Greeks, namely the Achaeans, certainly not all the Greeks. Last, that record you cite above is from 735 BCE, namely several centuries after the foundation of Mycenae in Greece. Forget the fact that Mycenaean Greek is dialectal Greek, and a rather evolved dialectal Greek, meaning not the closest to proto-Greek.

I suspect you are the same "MojtabaShahmiri" getting critized in the Wikipedia talk page of the "Mycenae" article for trying to postulate an Iranian origin for Mycenaeans, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AMycenaean_Greece. As Florian Blaschke wrote to you, the linguistic distance between Greek and Indo-Iranian is too large to suggest something like that, and there is no known trace of (pre-Indo-Iranian or not, centum or not) IE speakers on the Iranian Plateau in 2000 BCE, sorry to say. The Mitanni appeared 500 years later and their IE component is clearly Indo-Iranian. Mukania is far too late and random soundalikes prove nothing.

I have recently written a Persian article about Muqan plain in the northwest of Iran and south of Caucasus, and its relation to Magan/Makkan region in Sumero-Akkadian sources and Mukania in later sources.

As I also mentioned in my instragam page some months ago: https://www.instagram.com/p/B_UNDmZHji_/ Magians (Persian Muqan) were an ancient Indo-European people who lived in the northwest of Iran, they were the first people who adopted Zoroastranism and Iranian culture in this region and spread it to other lands, but as I mentioned I believe Avestan moγu is a lownword from Semitic, compare to Akkadian emqu "wise man".

Of course I said nothing about Mycenaeans in my article but these Indo-European people were Proto-Greeks, other than them ancient Gelonians/Helonians (Gelae) who originally lived in Gilan in the east Mugan plain were also proto-Greeks, even people of Parrhasia in the southwest of Caspian sea, ...

Just compare Gilaki (Graikos) words to Ancient Greek words: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilaki_language#Vocabulary

For example the Gilaki word for "girl" is kor, what is ancient Greek/Mycenaean word for "girl"?

 

[Demetrios]

I have recently written a Persian article about Muqan plain in the northwest of Iran and south of Caucasus, and its relation to Magan/Makkan region in Sumero-Akkadian sources and Mukania in later sources.


As I also mentioned in my instragam page some months ago: https://www.instagram.com/p/B_UNDmZHji_/ Magians (Persian Muqan) were an ancient Indo-European people who lived in the northwest of Iran, they were the first people who adopted Zoroastranism and Iranian culture in this region and spread it to other lands, but as I mentioned I believe Avestan moγu is a lownword from Semitic, compare to Akkadian emqu "wise man".

Of course I said nothing Mycenaeans in my article but these Indo-European people were Proto-Greeks, other than them ancient Gelonians/Helonians (Gelae) who originally lived in Gilan in the east Mugan plain were also proto-Greeks, even people of Parrhasia in the southwest of Caspian sea, ...

Just compare Gilaki (Graikos) words to Ancient Greek words: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilaki_language#Vocabulary

For example the Gilaki word for "girl" is kor, what is ancient Greek/Mycenaean word for "girl"?

I don't see any relation of the names Gilaki and Graikos, nor to the collection of words in the Wikipedia article you shared. As for kor and Greek κόρη being cognates it really doesn't mean that Greek originated either from Iranian or that Gilaki is even close to Greek linguistically. "kor" could be a common pre-IE root that survived in the substrate of both languages, it could also be that it was an IE root of Middle PIE and Late PIE out of which proto-Greek and proto-Indo-Iranian stem, and subsequently survived in them. Or, it could most likely and obviously be a loan from Greek to Gilaki during the Hellenistic period. Especially if we take into consideration that kor is only one of the four Gilaki words for girl, with the other being kiĵā/kilkā/lāku. You are familiar with the Hellenistic period, right? Truly mate, i have no interest in expanding this discussion.

 

[Shahmiri]

I don't see any relation of the names Gilaki and Graikos, nor to the collection of words in the Wikipedia article you shared. As for kor and Greek κόρη being cognates it really doesn't mean that Greek originated either from Iranian or that Gilaki is even close to Greek linguistically. "kor" could be either a common pre-IE root that survived in the substrate of both languages, it could also be that it was an IE root of Middle PIE and Late PIE out of which proto-Greek and proto-Indo-Iranian stem, and subsequently survived in them. Or, it could most likely and obviously be a loan from Greek to Gilaki during the Hellenistic period. Especially if we take into consideration that kor is only one of the four Gilaki words for girl, with the other being kiĵā/kilkā/lāku. You are familiar with the Hellenistic period, right? Truly mate, i have no interest in expanding this discussion.

I'm also not interested to continue this discussion, the similarity between Mukania (Mugan plain) and Mycenae could be just a coincidence, but about this genetic study, if you believe they were Minoans who migrated from Mugan plain to Greece, then you should answer some questions regarding it.

1. When did this migration occur?

In Fernandes et al. (2020). "The spread of steppe and Iranian-related ancestry in the islands of the western Mediterranean", we see map regarding to this migration:

As you see, it shows "2000 BC" as the arrival time of Iranian-related ancestry in Greece, does it mean Minoans came there in this period?

 

[Hawk]

?????????????

that is a conclussion?
after Lazarides papper?

What do you exactly mean with your questions, elaborate.

There is no conclusion yet, but we can just make assumptions.

 

[Demetrios]

I'm also not interested to continue this discussion, the similarity between Mukania (Mugan plain) and Mycenae could be just a coincidence, but about this genetic study, if you believe they were Minoans who migrated from Mugan plain to Greece, then you should answer some questions regarding it.

1. When did this migration occur?

In Fernandes et al. (2020). "The spread of steppe and Iranian-related ancestry in the islands of the western Mediterranean", we see map regarding to this migration:

As you see, it shows "2000 BC" as the arrival time of Iranian-related ancestry in Greece, does it mean Minoans came there in this period?

I didn't say anything about the Mugan plain nor did i say that i believe or support such a migration. You did that. Second, i haven't yet read the aforementioned paper, but in the abstract it has the following two quotes, "whereas Iranian farmer-related ancestry was present in Aegean Europe by at least 1900 BC." and "Iranian-related ancestry arrived by the mid-second millennium BC, contemporary to its previously documented spread to the Aegean". I don't know what to make of that since i haven't yet studied the paper. I only know that Minoan samples dated between 2900-1900 BCE and 2000-1700 BCE had it, so did the Anatolian samples from Isparta dated between 2836-1800 BCE, and the Mycenaean samples dated between 1700-1200 BCE. Plus, as we read from the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" paper, that "eastern" (Caucasus/Iran-related) or CHG (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer) autosomal component was already present in Anatolia from at least ~3,800 BCE, and as the paper also mentions, "ADMIXTURE analysis (Extended Data Fig. 1) shows that both Minoans and Mycenaeans possess a ‘pink’ genetic component (K=8 and greater) as do Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians, Neolithic Central Anatolians from Tepecik-Çiftlik, a Chalcolithic northwestern Anatolian, and western Anatolians from Kumtepe. This component is maximized in the Mesolithic/Neolithic samples from Iran and hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus (Extended Data Fig. 1). It is not found in the Neolithic of northwestern Anatolia, Greece, or the Early/Middle Neolithic populations of the rest of Europe, only appearing in the populations of the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age in mainland Europe, introduced there by migration from the Eurasian steppe.". Therefore, initially it obviously came from Anatolia to the Aegean sometime during the Late Neolithic or EBA, while it should have already coalesced for millennia or several centuries in Anatolia prior of that.

 

[Deird]

Wikipedia pollution

I suspect you are the same "MojtabaShahmiri" getting critized in the Wikipedia talk page of the "Mycenae" article for trying to postulate an Iranian origin for Mycenaeans, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AMycenaean_Greece.

Quite certainly so.
I noticed that a number of wikipedia pages are polluted by the ideas of Mojtaba Shahmiri.

 

[Shahmiri]

I didn't say anything about the Mugan plain nor did i say that i believe or support such a migration. You did that. Second, i haven't yet read the aforementioned paper, but in the abstract it has the following two quotes, "whereas Iranian farmer-related ancestry was present in Aegean Europe by at least 1900 BC." and "Iranian-related ancestry arrived by the mid-second millennium BC, contemporary to its previously documented spread to the Aegean". I don't know what to make of that since i haven't yet studied the paper. I only know that Minoan samples dated between 2900-1900 BCE and 2000-1700 BCE had it, so did the Anatolian samples from Isparta dated between 2836-1800 BCE, and the Mycenaean samples dated between 1700-1200 BCE. Plus, as we read from the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" paper, that "eastern" (Caucasus/Iran-related) or CHG (Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer) autosomal component was already present in Anatolia from at least ~3,800 BCE, and as the paper also mentions, "ADMIXTURE analysis (Extended Data Fig. 1) shows that both Minoans and Mycenaeans possess a ‘pink’ genetic component (K=8 and greater) as do Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians, Neolithic Central Anatolians from Tepecik-Çiftlik, a Chalcolithic northwestern Anatolian, and western Anatolians from Kumtepe. This component is maximized in the Mesolithic/Neolithic samples from Iran and hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus (Extended Data Fig. 1). It is not found in the Neolithic of northwestern Anatolia, Greece, or the Early/Middle Neolithic populations of the rest of Europe, only appearing in the populations of the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age in mainland Europe, introduced there by migration from the Eurasian steppe.". Therefore, initially it obviously came from Anatolia to the Aegean sometime during the Late Neolithic or EBA, while it should have already coalesced for millennia or several centuries in Anatolia prior of that.

I didn't get what you mean, in the above map we see a migration from northwest of Iran to Greece in 2,000 BC, there could be also some other migrations from this region to Anatolia or other lands in 3,000 BC or even 10,000 BC, they don't relate to this study, I asked these people brought what culture to Greece, was it Minoan?

 

[blevins13]

I'm also not interested to continue this discussion, the similarity between Mukania (Mugan plain) and Mycenae could be just a coincidence, but about this genetic study, if you believe they were Minoans who migrated from Mugan plain to Greece, then you should answer some questions regarding it.

1. When did this migration occur?

In Fernandes et al. (2020). "The spread of steppe and Iranian-related ancestry in the islands of the western Mediterranean", we see map regarding to this migration:

As you see, it shows "2000 BC" as the arrival time of Iranian-related ancestry in Greece, does it mean Minoans came there in this period?

This adds to the eastern model for Mycenaean.


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