Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[iluvatar]

Do you know if by Anatolian migrants he means ancient/pre-turkic conquest Anatolians or the migrants of the population exchange ?
If he means the latter... Probably he doesn't know that the majority of Western Anatolian/Ionian Greeks that were exchanged in 1923 descent from people from all over the Greek speaking world ( mostly from the Aegean Islands and the southern half of the mainland ) that poured there after the 17th century...

The discussion is about classical Greek samples, some of which cluster with Cypriots.

[Leopoldo Leone]

The discussion is about classical Greek samples, some of which cluster with Cypriots.

I think we can say "some of which cluster with Cypriots" if and only if some do after the paper has been published.
For now they are just a rumours for a guy who hasn't shown himself to be trustworthy.

[ihype02]

I think we can say "some of which cluster with Cypriots" if and only if some do after the paper has been published.
For now they are just a rumours for a guy who hasn't shown himself to be trustworthy.

There were some Anatolians in Classical Greece, Herodotus himself was half Carian. Depends on which place, for example Classical Age Epirus probably had pratically no post-Bronze Age Anatolian ancestry, while many Aegean Islands did.
Were those Anatolians outliers? If not where they limited to only some regions? Which regions? How populous were those regions? In most eastern shifted regions of Classical Greece were those Anatolian-like profiles 50% or 10%? So many questions. I don't think those can be solved. This is why I dislike heterogenous results.

[Jovialis]

I do not need more propaganda in my life.

People should start by not reading Eurogenes.

[lacreme]

The discussion is about classical Greek samples, some of which cluster with Cypriots.

So, using bronze age and some possibly classical antiquity samples with little to no Steppe and then adding a late antiquity/early middle ages NE population like Slavs to suck up all the excess "Steppe" in modern Greek populations ?
I don't doubt that they were important contributors to the genetic makeup of Greeks (and Albanians ) but with so few samples and the, as I understand, inherent difficulty of separating Steppe sources wouldn't it be better to wait at least until the official publication of the upcoming papers ?

[Jovialis]

The "Levantine" canard that anthrogenica/eurogenes that is pushing falls flat against reality. The Sarno et al. 2017 paper that they use even verifies what I have been saying,

"we identify traces of Post-Neolithic Levantine- and Caucasus-related ancestries (Sarno et al. 2017)"

This is not the +20% garbage some bad actor have been peddling.

[Pax Augusta]

There were some Anatolians in Classical Greece, Herodotus himself was half Carian. Depends on which place, for example Classical Age Epirus probably had pratically no post-Bronze Age Anatolian ancestry, while many Aegean Islands did.
Were those Anatolians outliers? If not where they limited to only some regions? Which regions? How populous were those regions? In most eastern shifted regions of Classical Greece were those Anatolian-like profiles 50% or 10%? So many questions. I don't think those can be solved. This is why I dislike heterogenous results.

That's exactly the point.


It should be noted that Herodotus was considered Greek in his own right. But people with his mixed profile were not at all uncommon in the Greek world.


Not to mention Greeks from Ionia who settled for centuries in Anatolia. It is impossible that they had not at least partly mixed with the Luwians, Lycians, Lydians, Carians.

[kingjohn]

Don't understand the point
Modern greek do have slavic admixture
Its not like davidski discover america 😅

[Dianatomia]

I think we are missing the point. In looking at the difference between the Mycenaean and modern Greek samples we clearly notice that the modern Greeks have more Steppe and more Eastern Mediterranean ancestry. Now Dawidski claims that some classical Greeks were Cypriot like. We also know that modern Cypriots resemble Ancient Anatolians. So the EEF admixture could have come from Anatolia. It makes sense. Mycenaen Greece was largely in the South of mainland Greece. In the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age, the western part of Anatolia became part of the Greek cultural mainframe. Starting 1000 B.C. the Greek world consisted of both sides of the Aegean. The Trojans and other Anatolian people were absorbed into the Hellenic mainframe. Indeed, there may have been ancient Greeks who had Trojan (Dardanian) ancestry. Another factor could be the Dorians. Some historians mentioned that they were descendants of the Trojans. Perhaps they had lots of East Med ancestry.
We have to understand that Greeks have always been in the making. The Greek world of Alexander or Plato was not the exact same world as that of Achilles and Odysseus. And so their genetics was not static, but slowly shifting, adding new elements into their genetic mainframe.

Either way, we have a missing link of the puzzle. We know that some classical Greeks had East Med (Cypriot-like) ancestry. So it is only logical the modern Greeks should have elevated East Med levels compared to the Mycenaeans. It seems to me that the more pieces of the puzzle we have, the closer we get to the modern Greeks.

I also notice on the eurogenes blog that some people have no good understanding of Greek history. Some argued that the East Med in modern Greeks came with the population exchange. While in reality there were whole regions in Greece which did not receive any influx of these Greek refugees from Asia Minor.There are many Greeks who are aware of not having any ancestry from the refugees from Asia Minor. Yet, all Greeks have elevated East Med levels compared to Mycenaens. So do some classical Greeks according to Davinski.

[Archetype0ne]

At this point I feel Greek Academy of Genetics/Anthropology or its equivalent is to blame. I do not bu*y that they do not have ancient samples from LBA/Classical(Iron)/Late Classical/ Early Middle Ages / Middle Ages etc from such a region with rich historical baggage.

One thing I do not agree with Davidski is that we don't even have 1% proof of continuity. Statistically speaking, getting to an autosomal mix similar to modern Greeks without at least 1% (realistically much much more) Ancient local DNA is impossible (0% probability). That's what I find ridiculous. Finding properly mixed ANE/STEPPE/CHG etc populations to go through the generational permutations without some local component I find impossible to believe.

Is the proof enough for proper continuity atm, or to gauge the level of continuity? Not enough to convince everyone aparently. So what would be proof enough? As many in this thread have pointed out we need more samples analyzed across the timeline from the region. The samples are there, or at least they have to be. When the Greek agencies, anthropologists and geneticist make the data available everything will be clear.

And I guarantee you there will be much more than <1% continuity, as Davidski is claiming right now. Thinking otherwise is disingenuous.

[Dianatomia]

At this point I feel Greek Academy of Genetics/Anthropology or its equivalent is to blame. I do not bu*y that they do not have ancient samples from LBA/Classical(Iron)/Late Classical/ Early Middle Ages / Middle Ages etc from such a region with rich historical baggage.

One thing I do not agree with Davidski is that we don't even have 1% proof of continuity. Statistically speaking, getting to an autosomal mix similar to modern Greeks without at least 1% (realistically much much more) Ancient local DNA is impossible (0% probability). That's what I find ridiculous. Finding properly mixed ANE/STEPPE/CHG etc populations to go through the generational permutations without some local component I find impossible to believe.

Is the proof enough for proper continuity atm, or to gauge the level of continuity? Not enough to convince everyone aparently. So what would be proof enough? As many in this thread have pointed out we need more samples analyzed across the timeline from the region. The samples are there, or at least they have to be. When the Greek agencies, anthropologists and geneticist make the data available everything will be clear.

And I guarantee you there will be much more than <1% continuity, as Davidski is claiming right now. Thinking otherwise is disingenuous.

I think you are being a little bit hard on Greek academies.
Not many academies have done extensive research on DNA of the inhabitants of the Bronze Age in their region. Where would Greek universities get the funding for these kinds of research post 2010 Greek economic crisis? Not that simple. There were many Greek cities in Albania or Turkey. They could easily extract ancient Greek DNA.

[Archetype0ne]

I think you are being a little bit hard on Greek academies.
Not many academies have done extensive research on DNA of the inhabitants of the Bronze Age in their region. Where would Greek universities get the funding for these kinds of research post 2010 Greek economic crisis? Not that simple. There were many Greek cities in Albania or Turkey. They could easily extract ancient Greek DNA.

Correct. But as you know the cost of sequencing genomes and Y-DNA deep test has exponentially plummeted since 2010.



Meanwhile the first genome sequence "At the lower bound, it would seem that this cost figure is at least $500 million; at the upper bound, this cost figure could be as high as $1 billion. The truth is likely somewhere in between." --- "The originally projected cost for the U.S.'s contribution to the HGP was $3 billion; in actuality, the Project ended up taking less time (~13 years rather than ~15 years) and requiring less funding - ~$2.7 billion." --- "based on these data, NHGRI estimated that the hypothetical 2003 cost to generate a 'second' reference human genome sequence using the then-available approaches and technologies was in the neighborhood of $50 million."

https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Sequencing-Human-Genome-cost



If amateur projects can raise funds to sequence genomes as a hobby. I do not see how a 200 bln GDP economy can not fund 50k-100k projects.

Besides that point. I get what you mean.

[bigsnake49]

I think you are being a little bit hard on Greek academies.
Not many academies have done extensive research on DNA of the inhabitants of the Bronze Age in their region. Where would Greek universities get the funding for these kinds of research post 2010 Greek economic crisis? Not that simple. There were many Greek cities in Albania or Turkey. They could easily extract ancient Greek DNA.

I totally agree with this. First comes the funding. The Greeks don't have to prove anything to Daviski or the regional Balkanites that are desperately trying to prove that they were here even before the Greeks and they are pure. There were a lot of artists, pottery artisans, sculptors, goldsmiths that came from all over the known world to Athens and the other major urban centers of the Ancient Greek World. I am sure that they were admixed with the locals. They all contributed to the Ancient Greek culture and were absorbed into the mainstream. I am sure that in the mountainous villages of Greece and elsewhere you can find pure locals but in the urban centers fat chance.

Also all of these studies and the commercial ancestry sites use reference groups that are at least 3 generations local on both sides to filter out recent migrants. It is not just Pontic Greeks and Cappadocian Greeks that cam over from what is now Turkey although some people like to concentrate on those. There were Greek speaking people from the Aegean Coast of Turkey and Constantinople, Eastern Thrace and Northern Thrace (East Romylia). All of those bring a different genetic makeup.

[Jovialis]

Not heavily ..
But it is for sure there ( slavic admixture)
Lowest in maniots and geting higher as you go north...
Historically there were slavic tribes in greece
They were not able to change the language completely like in bulgaria with the thracians
But they left genetic mark ...

Let us wait for this paper and see were classical greek samples will be autosomally...

P.s
I do agree with you though that if he claim that is not even 1 % continue with ancient greeks
That is crazy ( i guess i mised that thing)
and he need to woke up and see reality

Yes, that was the point I was making. I think to deny some Slavic ancestry in some Greeks, especially in the north is wrong. But to broadly say Modern Greeks are basically a two-way mix of Slavs and recent-Cypriots, while questioning even 1% of continuity to the ancient past, is just weird, and dubious.

[kingjohn]

Yes, that was the point I was making. I think to deny some Slavic ancestry in some Greeks, especially in the north is wrong. But to broadly say Modern Greeks are basically a two-way mix of Slavs and recent-Cypriots, while questioning even 1% of continuity to the ancient past, is just weird, and dubious.

Here is a dna paper who extriminate fallmayer theory

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718

[Ralphie Boy]

What the Fallmerayer people would have to argue now is that nearly 100% of Anatolia Neolithic in modern Greeks is a proxy for ancient Greeks, brought by foreign invaders and settlers who substantially resembled them—a nearly complete replacement by substantially similar people. That seems improbable for at least two reasons: Greek population size in the region and language/culture continuity.

Lazaridis et al argue for continuity, not declare it as indisputable and final. In science the door is open to refutation. We still have big gaps in our knowledge, such as the genetic makeup of pre-Slavic Byzantine Greeks. If they had very little Steppe ancestry, it may mean the Slavic input was greater.

It’s also fair to question if some non-Greeks in the southern Balkans have ancient Greek ancestry, based on the number of historical Greek settlements.

[bigsnake49]

With respect to the Fallmayer theories it points out the pitfalls of depending on ancient and some medieval authors. What I would like is ancient tax records from the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman Empires that list the number of settlers that were moved to an area to repopulate it and census records before and after.

[Pax Augusta]

Here is a dna paper who extriminate fallmayer theory
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718

Those are all theoretical models, there is no smoking gun.


The paper is not really so credible

"The average shared ancestry with French ranges from 39 to 42%; with Andalusians from 53 to 62%; and with the Italians from 85 to 96%. In contrast, the average shared ancestry with the Slavic populations is always <15%. Therefore, the Peloponneseans are genetically much more distinct from the Slavic populations and are much more similar to Southern European populations."

In any case it minimizes the supposed Slavic contribution

"the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%."

[kingjohn]

Those are all theoretical models, there is no smoking gun.
The paper is not really so credible
"The average shared ancestry with French ranges from 39 to 42%; with Andalusians from 53 to 62%; and with the Italians from 85 to 96%. In contrast, the average shared ancestry with the Slavic populations is always <15%. Therefore, the Peloponneseans are genetically much more distinct from the Slavic populations and are much more similar to Southern European populations."
In any case it minimizes the supposed Slavic contribution
"the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%."

Well his theory is that modern greek people in south peloponnesea
Are slavic tribes who are hellenized later by orthodox church ....
Next to him davidski sound logic ....

[Angela]

He is not saying they left no trace, he is saying they are heavily Slavic, combined with recent-Cypriots, which is preposterous.


Why? It is a theory promoted by them, so I think it is salient to the conversation. The Fallmerayer theory was promoted by Nazis to abuse Greeks for apparent Slavic admixture, it is a fact.


It wasn't just Greeks, but other Slavs and Slav-mixed people in the Balkans were brutally murdered by Nazis, because they were considered sub-human.

Don't you remember that HUGE migration from Cyprus to Greece??? Were you sleeping during history class???

You know what the answer always is, right? It was all those TURKISH AND LEVANTINE admixed "Greeks" who came in the exchange!!!

Pity there's a HUGE problem with that, which no matter how many times I've personally brought it up is conveniently forgotten. The paper on the Peloponnese by used VERY carefully chosen samples only from people who were very elderly and whose four grandparents from the area would therefore have been alive BEFORE the exchanges.

WHEN are people going to stop assuming some samples from Thessaly represent ALL mainland Greeks?

As for that comment by Polako in 2017, he thought all Southern Italians (for Northern Italians for that matter) would break out crying when they discovered they have a significant amount of Anatolian Bronze Age. That tells you a lot more about HIS attitudes toward Anatolian Bronze and Anatolian Neolithic for that matter than it says about ITALIAN attitudes. Why do some people assume everyone looks at the world the way that they do?

He also apparently doesn't know that the SLAVIC input into Greeks was considered by the Nazis to make them subhuman. Still thinks it was a good idea for some Poles to have joined battalions which fought for the Nazis. No accounting for some people's values or how they're able to reconcile seemingly contradictory facts.

Oh, since you don't seem to know, the Nazis are a sensitive subject in the Balkans since so many Balkan countries cooperated with, and fought with them. I don't get it. Italians are deeply ashamed of their alliance with Hitler, and express it at every opportunity. That's one reason why they lionize the partisans. Maybe it's different in the Balkans? I really don't know enough about the topic to express an opinion.


Wow, I see you have a new moderator on board. That's good; now I don't feel badly about being around so seldom. :)

[kingjohn]

Well angela ...
Some south slavs from balkan cooperated with
The nazis ( croatians, bosnians) so sometimes history
Is not balck or white but rather grey
Infact me as a jewish know well enough
That even the nazis were amazed by the brutality of the ustache in croatia and bosnia
Thwords jews and also serbs ...
They built extrimination camp for god sake....🤨

P.s
But i am off topic sorry 🤔

[Çerç]

How any individual felt years ago, or today, is irrelevant.

If we are discussing the possibility of Greek continuity since BA, modern closeness with samples recently arrived from the Steppe (or related to others who had), especially considering that the modeling requires an extra Steppe-related component, suggests that modern Greeks have significantly more Steppe ancestry than LBA Greeks, and very likely even more so than the Ancient Greeks of IA, Classical Antiquity and Roman period.

What population brought this important component is yet to be discovered, but Slavs are among the main candidates.

[blevins13]

Don't you remember that HUGE migration from Cyprus to Greece??? Were you sleeping during history class???

You know what the answer always is, right? It was all those TURKISH AND LEVANTINE admixed "Greeks" who came in the exchange!!!

Pity there's a HUGE problem with that, which no matter how many times I've personally brought it up is conveniently forgotten. The paper on the Peloponnese by used VERY carefully chosen samples only from people who were very elderly and whose four grandparents from the area would therefore have been alive BEFORE the exchanges.

WHEN are people going to stop assuming some samples from Thessaly represent ALL mainland Greeks?

As for that comment by Polako in 2017, he thought all Southern Italians (for Northern Italians for that matter) would break out crying when they discovered they have a significant amount of Anatolian Bronze Age. That tells you a lot more about HIS attitudes toward Anatolian Bronze and Anatolian Neolithic for that matter than it says about ITALIAN attitudes. Why do some people assume everyone looks at the world the way that they do?

He also apparently doesn't know that the SLAVIC input into Greeks was considered by the Nazis to make them subhuman. Still thinks it was a good idea for some Poles to have joined battalions which fought for the Nazis. No accounting for some people's values or how they're able to reconcile seemingly contradictory facts.

Oh, since you don't seem to know, the Nazis are a sensitive subject in the Balkans since so many Balkan countries cooperated with, and fought with them. I don't get it. Italians are deeply ashamed of their alliance with Hitler, and express it at every opportunity. That's one reason why they lionize the partisans. Maybe it's different in the Balkans? I really don't know enough about the topic to express an opinion.


Wow, I see you have a new moderator on board. That's good; now I don't feel badly about being around so seldom. :)

The history tell us that the war with Greece was started by Italians without Nazi approval, from that time Albania is still at war with Greece even though we were invaded ourselves. Nazis came to help the Italians that were being beaten by the Greek Army in the mountains of Epirus. These are old stories, and are not relevant at all to this topic. A criminal might use whatever pretext to justify its slaughter, that does not make what Fallmayer said wrong. A criminal that reads your posts here might use your ideas as a justification for a crime, can that make what you said right or wrong? In my modest understanding it is to early to jump to conclusions without more samples from every historical period. Personally I expect continuity but with major Slavic contribution. It will illogical to think that Slavic tribes stoped at the Greek borders for some reason and did not advance further.


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[blevins13]

Well angela ...
Some south slavs from balkan cooperated with
The nazis ( croatians, bosnians) so sometimes history
Is not balck or white but rather grey
Infact me as a jewish know well enough
That even the nazis were amazed by the brutality of the ustache in croatia and bosnia
Thwords jews and also serbs ...
They built extrimination camp for god sake....🤨

P.s
But i am off topic sorry

You are right, in Albania for example, the pro nazi Albanian government was instrumental in saving the Jewish community.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

[Constantine]

I could be out of the loop here, but I don't recall a lot of "subhuman" treatment of Greeks and Balkanites by the Nazis (at least greater than other invaded countries). Anybody have sources on this? Greeks were actually admired, I believe, for their ability to defend themselves (and crushing the initial Italian invaders in short order). I remember skimming through a copy of a "manual" of sorts the Nazi troops were given about the Balkan people where it explicitly states "The modern Greeks have roots in ancient Greece." Sure Hitler hated Slavs, but Many Balkanites collaborated with Nazis. There was even a Muslim Albanian division.

I've also heard from not-untrustworthy sources that Greeks of "good stock" (more often women) were actually taken for creepy breeding programs.