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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Well angela ...
    Some south slavs from balkan cooperated with
    The nazis ( croatians, bosnians) so sometimes history
    Is not balck or white but rather grey
    Infact me as a jewish know well enough
    That even the nazis were amazed by the brutality of the ustache in croatia and bosnia
    Thwords jews and also serbs ...
    They built extrimination camp for god sake....🤨

    P.s
    But i am off topic sorry
    You are right, in Albania for example, the pro nazi Albanian government was instrumental in saving the Jewish community.


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    I could be out of the loop here, but I don't recall a lot of "subhuman" treatment of Greeks and Balkanites by the Nazis (at least greater than other invaded countries). Anybody have sources on this? Greeks were actually admired, I believe, for their ability to defend themselves (and crushing the initial Italian invaders in short order). I remember skimming through a copy of a "manual" of sorts the Nazi troops were given about the Balkan people where it explicitly states "The modern Greeks have roots in ancient Greece." Sure Hitler hated Slavs, but Many Balkanites collaborated with Nazis. There was even a Muslim Albanian division.

    I've also heard from not-untrustworthy sources that Greeks of "good stock" (more often women) were actually taken for creepy breeding programs.

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    ^ You are right Hilter considered Greeks as Aryan but below Germans like Aryan class B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    You are right, in Albania for example, the pro nazi Albanian government was instrumental in saving the Jewish community.


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    Since we are talking about this, and its not considered off topic might as well.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/albani...rotected-jews/

    Albania, only country with more Jews after the Holocaust, inaugurates memorial


    Not that Albania had many Jews before the war, but still it was the only country with more Jews after than before the War in Europe.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Those are all theoretical models, there is no smoking gun.
    The paper is not really so credible
    "The average shared ancestry with French ranges from 39 to 42%; with Andalusians from 53 to 62%; and with the Italians from 85 to 96%. In contrast, the average shared ancestry with the Slavic populations is always <15%. Therefore, the Peloponneseans are genetically much more distinct from the Slavic populations and are much more similar to Southern European populations."
    In any case it minimizes the supposed Slavic contribution
    "
    the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%."
    Thanks for pointing out those figures. Perhaps some people should consider reading papers on the topic, instead of giving personal opinions based on assumptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ^ You are right Hilter considered Greeks as Aryan but below Germans like Aryan class B.
    Purely political, and strategic. Just like their alliance with Japanese, the "honorary Aryans". Nazis believed the ancient Greeks were Nordics.

    This book was born of a surprising discovery: some preliminary research on youth movements and the idea of Europe led me to the speeches of Alfred Rosenberg, in which he claimed that the Greeks were a Northern people. As it turns out, this curious textual artifact merely repeated the canonical work of National Socialist doctrine: Hitler wrote in Mein Kampfthat there was a “racial unity” (Rasse-Einheit) that linked Greeks, Romans, and Germans, and that these three peoples were united in fighting the same millenarian war...The primary effect of this new rhetoric on racial origins, a reimagining of the old Aryan myth, was to draw Greece and Rome into the orbit of the Nordic race and its civilization. The Nordicism of the Greeks and Romans was confirmed by historians and racial scientists and publicized in a number of ways, not all of them scholarly. This rhetoric was also adopted by the regime’s political leaders, to a surprising degree—surprising, that is, for the level of interest they displayed in a seemingly abstract, academic subject. Yet this issue assumed a singular importance for the Nazi leadership,...

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/j.ctt1f5g5m8

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    We are not trying to minimize slavic genetic input but it is what it is, 10-15% average genetic input is huge for a country. I do not see dinaric phenotypes among the Greeks but then I have not visited Veria lately.

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Purely political, and strategic. Just like their alliance with Japanese, the "honorary Aryans". Nazis believed the ancient Greeks were Nordics.
    “Nazis believed the ancient Greeks were Nordics.” Using you logic for Falmerajer, Can we say that if the Nazis say this, is wrong?


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    “Nazis believed the ancient Greeks were Nordics.” Using you logic for Falmerajer, Can we say that if the Nazis say this, is wrong?


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    No, the Nazis believed the Ancient Greeks were Nordic, and were racially degenerated by Slavs and Avars according to their adoption of the Fallmerayer Theory. Which was taught to Nazi officers in the Axis occupation of Greece.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The reality is, the Ancient Greeks were Southern Europeans, and the later Greeks are still Southern Europeans, augmented by some degree Slavic admixture. Some a bit more than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The reality is, the Ancient Greeks were Southern Europeans, and the later Greeks are still Southern Europeans, augmented by some degree Slavic admixture. Some a bit more than others.
    Both are southern Europeans of course, and fairly similar, but the question is how much of modern Greeks' ancestry comes from Ancient Greeks. The answer is not known, but it should be considerably lower than the models we have seen so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    Both are southern Europeans of course, and fairly similar, but the question is how much of modern Greeks' ancestry comes from Ancient Greeks. The answer is not known, but it should be considerably lower than the models we have seen so far.
    Why is that so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    No, the Nazis believed the Ancient Greeks were Nordic, and were racially degenerated by Slavs and Avars according to their adoption of the Fallmerayer Theory. Which was taught to Nazi officers in the Axis occupation of Greece.
    So did The Greeks came from north as the Nazi has promoted or not? Or did they come from Anatolia? What is your position?


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    So did The Greeks came from north as the Nazi has promoted or not? Or did they come from Anatolia? What is your position?


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    Even if the Northern model is correct, it doesn't mean they were Nordic. It also doesn't mean they had a ton of steppe ancestry, by the time they got there.

    I think the Northern model is possible, as there are links to Catacomb culture and Mycenaeans. But as it stands, it is currently unresolved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Why is that so?
    Because, as I explained above, the model from the last paper shows modern mainland Greeks are most similar to MBA samples with recently arrived Steppe-related ancestry, but moderns have even higher Steppe-related %. Periods following MBA will very likely have diluted Steppe-like ancestry as the MBA populations were gradually absorbed by Anatolia and Iran ancestry peoples of the Aegean. You can already notice this in LBA Myceneans, which of course are not as similar to modern Greeks as those MBA samples, and this genetic homogenization will have continued through the IA (maybe somewhat mirroring the cultural one). So the difference in Steppe-like ancestry between modern mainland Greeks and Ancient mainland Greeks is likely greater than that between modern Greeks and Myceneans, and far greater than that between modern mainland Greeks and the MBA samples presented in the latest models.

    The islands may be a different story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    Both are southern Europeans of course, and fairly similar, but the question is how much of modern Greeks' ancestry comes from Ancient Greeks. The answer is not known, but it should be considerably lower than the models we have seen so far.
    The answer well known, if you read genetics, especially from the side of Matriarchical side.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
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    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

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    Nemesis and punishment follows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    So did The Greeks came from north as the Nazi has promoted or not? Or did they come from Anatolia? What is your position?


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    you already know the answer, it is provited many times in Forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    Because, as I explained above, the model from the last paper shows modern mainland Greeks are most similar to MBA samples with recently arrived Steppe-related ancestry, but moderns have even higher Steppe-related %. Periods following MBA will very likely have diluted Steppe-like ancestry as the MBA populations were gradually absorbed by Anatolia and Iran ancestry peoples of the Aegean. You can already notice this in LBA Myceneans, which of course are not as similar to modern Greeks as those MBA samples, and this genetic homogenization will have continued through the IA (maybe somewhat mirroring the cultural one). So the difference in Steppe-like ancestry between modern mainland Greeks and Ancient mainland Greeks is likely greater than that between modern Greeks and Myceneans, and far greater than that between modern mainland Greeks and the MBA samples presented in the latest models.

    The islands may be a different story.
    your answer is obvious, here,






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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Even if the Northern model is correct, it doesn't mean they were Nordic. It also doesn't mean they had a ton of steppe ancestry, by the time they got there.

    I think the Northern model is possible, as there are links to Catacomb culture and Mycenaeans. But as it stands, it is currently unresolved.
    It is a plausible option, the problem is that the link with Armenian is not quite clear in the Northern model of Greeks.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    you already know the answer, it is provited many times in Forum.
    Since was promoted by Nazis, I thought maybe there was a change of hearts. I know your position. Your activity has diminished, how come?


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The reality is, the Ancient Greeks were Southern Europeans, and the later Greeks are still Southern Europeans, augmented by some degree Slavic admixture. Some a bit more than others.

    yes probably greeks from thessaly and macedonia should have more slavic admixture
    than greeks from peloponnese
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    We are not trying to minimize slavic genetic input but it is what it is, 10-15% average genetic input is huge for a country. I do not see dinaric phenotypes among the Greeks but then I have not visited Veria lately.
    There are more Slavic placenames in Peloponnese than Germanic placenames in Lombardy. And Lomardy is many times larger in both size and population than Peloponnese.

    We will see where that 15% will stand after 10 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    yes probably greeks from thessaly and macedonia should have more slavic admixture
    than greeks from peloponnese
    Macedonia and Thessaly may have had more Steppe influence to begin with, as shown by the MBA samples.

    We will see where that 15% will stand after 10 years.
    I think that 15% is overrated for Greeks overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Macedonia and Thessaly may have had more Steppe influence to begin with, as shown by the MBA samples.



    I think that 15% is overrated for Greeks overall.

    i wonder where would byzantine period greeks will cluster autosomally ......


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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i wonder where would byzantine period greeks will cluster autosomally ......

    Is this from a Slav wet dream?

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