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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #2876
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    Did we not have a thread about the Y-DNA breakdown of modern Greeks somewhere? Does anybody remember what were the numbers for R1a1-Din (M-417?) and I2A1-Din? I vaguely remember that the Y-DNA numbers did not support wholesale replacement.

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    I'm sure the following needs to be updated. I also don't know how you would distinguish R1a Z93 from the "Eastern European" variety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    The culture and language may have been different but the Mycenaeans were genetically about 80pc Minoan-like.
    just saying that having similar DNA doesn't make them the same people

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    just saying that having similar DNA doesn't make them the same people
    Indeed, but they are fairly similar people and more like modern South Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Indeed, but they are fairly similar people and more like modern South Europeans.
    I'll have to look it up again, but didn't they say in the paper on the palatial civilizations of Greece that the people of Crete and of mainland Greece and the islands were basically the same people until the steppe people arrived in mainland Greece? Did they define them as something like "Aegean peoples"?

    The Anatolian Neolithic people went to Crete and the rest of the islands and they also went to the mainland. Same goes for the Anatolian Bronze Age.

    I don't see the big distinction some people are making. They're all descended from the same migration waves. The only difference is that steppe admixture arrived first on the mainland. It certainly got to Crete later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'll have to look it up again, but didn't they say in the paper on the palatial civilizations of Greece that the people of Crete and of mainland Greece and the islands were basically the same people until the steppe people arrived in mainland Greece? Did they define them as something like "Aegean peoples"?

    The Anatolian Neolithic people went to Crete and the rest of the islands and they also went to the mainland. Same goes for the Anatolian Bronze Age.

    I don't see the big distinction some people are making. They're all descended from the same migration waves. The only difference is that steppe admixture arrived first on the mainland. It certainly got to Crete later.
    Goodness! It couldn't be more obvious. It's right in the summary. How could I forget? :)

    "We sequenced six Early to Middle BA whole genomes, along with 11 mitochondrial genomes, sampled from the three BA cultures of the Aegean Sea. The Early BA (EBA) genomes are homogeneous and derive most of their ancestry from Neolithic Aegeans, contrary to earlier hypotheses that the Neolithic-EBA cultural transition was due to massive population turnover. EBA Aegeans were shaped by relatively small-scale migration from East of the Aegean, as evidenced by the Caucasus-related ancestry also detected in Anatolians. "

    For anyone who doesn't remember, the three Bronze Age cultures of the Aegean are described by the authors as: Helladic (mainland), Minoan (Crete), and Cycladic (rest of the islands).

    They are saying the genomes were homogeneous.
    Now, the graphic does show the tiniest sliver of WHG in EBA Helladic and but it's barely worth mentioning. These were the same peoples.

    So, as we said above. Same people. What changed things was the Middle Bronze Age arrival of some steppe or steppe admixed people on the mainland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Again, if we were so inundated with Slavs, how come we don't look slavic/dinaric, don't have more percentage of blonde/blue eyes? Did we get the dark slavs?
    well greeks from the islands match up with lebanese and you also recieved alot of anatolians aswell so if there was at one stage a more slavic look its not evident anymore.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Genetic similarity and even descent are OBVIOUSLY different from culture and language, which can change with one invasion.

    Mycenaeans were Minoan like (Anatolia Neolithic plus some Anatolian Bronze) plus a minor steppe addition as Vallicanus so correctly said above.

    The minority steppe input eventually spread to Crete as well, as the later sample shows.
    was there a population turnover in crete ?

    how could an already minor ancestry impact an area where there is none ?

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    I have an uniformed question...
    Can IBD be used for such cases? I mean where the time frame is as distant as Minoans and Myceneans?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynxbythetv View Post
    was there a population turnover in crete ?

    how could an already minor ancestry impact an area where there is none ?

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    I don't have the faintest clue what you're asking and how it relates to the discussion.

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    All 5 Maniote Y-DNA in Anthrogenica are J2a too.
    I have started to suspect that E-V13 was increased in Mainland Greece during the Dark Ages (with Slavs).

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynxbythetv View Post
    well greeks from the islands match up with lebanese and you also recieved alot of anatolians aswell so if there was at one stage a more slavic look its not evident anymore.


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    What Lebanese? Levant_N? Anatolia EEF?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    ^^Don't listen to lynxbythetv. He's a t-roll who has made other foolish posts like this in the past. Frankly, he should be removed from the website, imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    All 5 Maniote Y-DNA in Anthrogenica are J2a too.
    I have started to suspect that E-V13 was increased in Mainland Greece during the Dark Ages (with Slavs).
    Nope, couple of them are E-V13 as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Nope, couple of them are E-V13 as well.
    Yeah I just saw them after I made the post. But:
    1.) Maniotes are surrounded by E-V13 people.
    2.) E-V13 was obviously present in ancient Peloponnese but I don't think it was greater than J2a.
    3.) Calabria, Eastern Sicily and Crete have around 7%-9% EV-13 and nearly 30% J2a.
    4.) E-V13 does not appear in any of the Roman samples until the Germanic invasions.

    One hypothesis of mine is that E-V13 could've been more dominant in northern regions of Greece and Thrace and after northern Greeks and Thracians adopted the koine language the E-V13 started spearding in the south more due to migration and mixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    All 5 Maniote Y-DNA in Anthrogenica are J2a too.
    I have started to suspect that E-V13 was increased in Mainland Greece during the Dark Ages (with Slavs).
    I did not know that E-V13 was a characteristic haplogroup of the Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I did not know that E-V13 was a characteristic haplogroup of the Slavs.
    Slavicised Balkanites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Slavicised Balkanites.
    Or locals that changed their language or religion. Genetics are one thing, language and religion is another. Now once you speak the same language and have the same religion it's easier to get absorbed into the general population.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 20-05-21 at 14:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Or locals that changed their language?
    It was just a hypothesis. I gave another hypothesis about Northern Greeks. Thracians were enriched with E-V13 as shown in ancient samples from Serbia. I have also seen some screenshot about lot's of E-V13 in a Thracian zone in an upcomming study.

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    Why E-V13 only, where are the other Y-DNA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    It was just a hypothesis. I gave another hypothesis about Northern Greeks. Thracians were enriched with E-V13 as shown in ancient samples from Serbia. I have also seen some screenshot about lot's of E-V13 in a Thracian zone in an upcomming study.
    People have to remember that the Greeks encountered both Pelasgians and Thracians in mainland Grece when they came down.

  22. #2897
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    People have to remember that the Greeks encountered both Pelasgians and Thracians in mainland Grece when they came down.
    For Thracians i am pretty sure they didn't encounter, for Pelasgians again it's discutable, Marija Gimbutas proposed that Pelasgians were Late Bronze Age invaders from Grla-Mare Dubovac Culture in Serbia/Romania borders and ancient Greeks just got it totally wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    For Thracians i am pretty sure they didn't encounter, for Pelasgians again it's discutable, Marija Gimbutas proposed that Pelasgians were Late Bronze Age invaders from Grla-Mare Dubovac Culture in Serbia/Romania borders and ancient Greeks just got it totally wrong.
    So the ancient Greeks that were 800-1000 years removed got it wrong but somebody 3500 years removed with no evidence is right? OK. Now I don't think that everything that Herodotus or other geographers and historians said is right but come on...

  24. #2899
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    So the ancient Greeks that were 800-1000 years removed got it wrong but somebody 3500 years removed with no evidence is right? OK. Now I don't think that everything that Herodotus or other geographers and historians said is right but come on...
    Somebody who had access to extensive archeological evidence and informations, we are also removed far more years and have more informations than Herodotus had who relied more on stories being passed, subjective viewpoints. Not trying to undermine him, on contrary, he is considered the father of History for a reason, someone needs to start from beginning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Somebody who had access to extensive archeological evidence and informations, we are also removed far more years and have more informations than Herodotus had who relied more on stories being passed, subjective viewpoints. Not trying to undermine him, on contrary, he is considered the father of History for a reason, someone needs to start from beginning.
    and what were Herodotos' sources on this?
    Herodotos always mentioned his sources and added what he believed personnaly

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