Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 117 of 120 FirstFirst ... 1767107115116117118119 ... LastLast
Results 2,901 to 2,925 of 2978

Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #2901
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    30-03-18
    Posts
    64


    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^Don't listen to lynxbythetv. He's a t-roll who has made other foolish posts like this in the past. Frankly, he should be removed from the website, imo.
    im not a troll. im not wrong if there at one stage was a higher slavic input its not as evident because during the ottoman persecutions many anatolian greeks moved to greece proper and many islanders have moved to the mainland.

    i dont actually think greece was all that slavic in the past anyway but you cant discount wars, famines, migrations and plagues having a demographic impact.

    its the same for much of anatolia aswell, many of those turkic conquerors put whole cities to the sword.

    take for example armenia, the steppe admixture was higher at one stage and then came the mongols who wiped much of it out, allegedly.

    Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

  2. #2902
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    30-03-18
    Posts
    64


    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't have the faintest clue what you're asking and how it relates to the discussion.
    if the myceneans only had a small precentage of steppe admixture then that admixture would be heavily diluted in the cretans.

    Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

  3. #2903
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,285

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Somebody who had access to extensive archeological evidence and informations, we are also removed far more years and have more informations than Herodotus had who relied more on stories being passed, subjective viewpoints. Not trying to undermine him, on contrary, he is considered the father of History for a reason, someone needs to start from beginning.
    I can't wait to hear his evidence. If it is linguistics, forget it. So much quackery!

  4. #2904
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,471

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    (R1b-F1794) R-M269
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by lynxbythetv View Post
    im not a troll. im not wrong if there at one stage was a higher slavic input its not as evident because during the ottoman persecutions many anatolian greeks moved to greece proper and many islanders have moved to the mainland.

    i dont actually think greece was all that slavic in the past anyway but you cant discount wars, famines, migrations and plagues having a demographic impact.

    its the same for much of anatolia aswell, many of those turkic conquerors put whole cities to the sword.

    take for example armenia, the steppe admixture was higher at one stage and then came the mongols who wiped much of it out, allegedly.

    Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
    You're pulling nonsense out of your backside. Now you can either substantiate your claims with legitimate genetic papers, or you reframe from speaking. This is your final warning.

  5. #2905
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    473

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Japan



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I can't wait to hear his evidence. If it is linguistics, forget it. So much quackery!
    What evidence? We know next to nothing about Pelasgians, Gimbutas just hypothesized about Pelasgians being synonymous for Peleset/Philistines, and they in turn showing similarities with Vatin-related culture. It's not verified, but neither negated. We don't even have any archeological site defined as Pelasgian in order to define them clearly, they must have been in chunks here and there already being assimilated into Hellenic identity during Herodotus time.

    Otherwise, Pelasgians very well might have been descended from earlier Helladic/Cycladic cultures, being packed with J2a and G2a.

  6. #2906
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,285

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    What evidence? We know next to nothing about Pelasgians, Gimbutas just hypothesized about Pelasgians being synonymous for Peleset/Philistines, and they in turn showing similarities with Vatin-related culture. It's not verified, but neither negated. We don't even have any archeological site defined as Pelasgian in order to define them clearly, they must have been in chunks here and there already being assimilated into Hellenic identity during Herodotus time.

    Otherwise, Pelasgians very well might have been descended from earlier Helladic/Cycladic cultures, being packed with J2a and G2a.
    Yeah, I am not aware of any Pelasgian archaeological, anthropological or genetic studies. We only have the writings of Ancient Greek and Roman authors which are contradictory. Here is what Strabo said of the ancient pre-Greek inhabitants:

    'Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus, that, before the time of the Greeks, it was inhabited by barbarians. Perhaps even the whole of Greece was, anciently, a settlement of barbarians, if we judge from former accounts. For Pelops brought colonists from Phrygia into the Peloponnesus, which took his name; Danaus brought colonists from Egypt; Dry- opes, Caucones, Pelasgi, Leleges, and other barbarous nations, partitioned among themselves the country on this side of the isthmus. The case was the same on the other side of the isthmus; for Thracians, under their leader Eumolpus, took possession of Attica; Tereus of Daulis in Phocaea; the Phoenicians, with their leader Cadmus, occupied the Cadmeian district; Aones, and Temmices, and Hyantes, Boeotia. Pindar says, `there was a time when the Boeotian people were called Syes.' Some names show their barbarous origin, as Cecrops, Codrus, Ceclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. Thracians, Illyrians, and Epirotae are settled even at present on the sides of Greece. Formerly the territory they possessed was more extensive, although even now the barbarians possess a large part of the country, which, without dispute, is Greece. Macedonia is occupied by Thracians, as well as some parts of Thessaly; the country above Acarnania and Aetolia, by Thesproti, Cassopaei, Amphilochi, Molotti, and Athamanes, Epirotic tribes. Book
    7, ch. 7, frg. 1.''



  7. #2907
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,285

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    For Thracians i am pretty sure they didn't encounter, for Pelasgians again it's discutable, Marija Gimbutas proposed that Pelasgians were Late Bronze Age invaders from Grla-Mare Dubovac Culture in Serbia/Romania borders and ancient Greeks just got it totally wrong.
    According to Strabo the Thracians occupied Attica. According to Herodotus the Pelasgians were the original Athenian dwellers.

  8. #2908
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,801

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Pelasgians, may be an alter name for non Dorian Greeks,
    Possibly Mynians, Minoans, and Myceneans.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  9. #2909
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,913

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    according to someones (B. Sergent among them), the name Pelasgian could be related to the Phillistins, but this name could have been misused (abusive extension) to name several pre-Greek people, among them among them Anatolian I-Eans and non-I-Ean people -

  10. #2910
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    262


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    It was just a hypothesis. I gave another hypothesis about Northern Greeks. Thracians were enriched with E-V13 as shown in ancient samples from Serbia. I have also seen some screenshot about lot's of E-V13 in a Thracian zone in an upcomming study.
    Highest rates of E-V13 in Greece is Thessaly. Reaches up to 40% in that region. It has far higher rates that the South Slav countries. So we have to look deeper for its origins. Thessaly was the home of the Pelasgians.

    So either the people invading from the Steppe from the North mixed with E-V13 Balkanoids along the way South in the Balkans.
    Or maybe these people from the Steppe mixed with Thessalian Pelasgians and the went further south, spreading E-v13. It didn't show up yet in Mycenaeans because they have little Steppe, and as such less E-v13. The Dorians may have been one of these waves who brought E-v13 as well.

    -6000.jpg

    E-v13 could be an element of Thessalian cultures, prior to the arrival of peoples from the Steppe.

  11. #2911
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    587


    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Highest rates of E-V13 in Greece is Thessaly. Reaches up to 40% in that region. It has far higher rates that the South Slav countries. So we have to look deeper for its origins. Thessaly was the home of the Pelasgians.

    So either the people invading from the Steppe from the North mixed with E-V13 Balkanoids along the way South in the Balkans.
    Or maybe these people from the Steppe mixed with Thessalian Pelasgians and the went further south, spreading E-v13. It didn't show up yet in Mycenaeans because they have little Steppe, and as such less E-v13. The Dorians may have been one of these waves who brought E-v13 as well.

    -6000.jpg

    E-v13 could be an element of Thessalian cultures, prior to the arrival of peoples from the Steppe.
    The Dorians very likely brought some E-V13 in the Peloponnese but I don't think it was as mainstream in the Classical period as it is now. (I explained the reasoning why before)
    I believe that northern Greeks (including Thessalians) and Thracians made it the dominant Y-DNA in the region, it is the most rational explanation I can come up with.
    The Slavic hypothesis is a very weak one, not impossible though highly unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Yeah I just saw them after I made the post. But:
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    1.) Maniotes are surrounded by E-V13 people.
    2.) E-V13 was obviously present in ancient Peloponnese but I don't think it was greater than J2a.
    3.) Calabria, Eastern Sicily and Crete have around 7%-9% EV-13 and nearly 30% J2a.
    4.) E-V13 does not appear in any of the Roman samples until the Germanic invasions.

    One hypothesis of mine is that E-V13 could've been more dominant in northern regions of Greece and Thrace and after northern Greeks and Thracians adopted the koine language the E-V13 started spearding in the south more due to migration and mixture.

    Something extra
    5.) All regions of Italy (expect for one in north West) outside of Magna Greacia have +5% E-V13 which is not far away from Magna Greacian regions.

  12. #2912
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,801

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    according to someones (B. Sergent among them), the name Pelasgian could be related to the Phillistins, but this name could have been misused (abusive extension) to name several pre-Greek people, among them among them Anatolian I-Eans and non-I-Ean people -

    You are refering to the old testament book of Iezekiel.
    and the translation of 70.
    ''διὰ τοῦτο τάδε λέγει Κύριος· ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐκτείνω τὴν χεῖρά μου ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀλλοφύλους καὶ ἐξολοθρεύσω Κρῆτας καὶ ἀπολῶ τοὺς καταλοίπους τοὺς κατοικοῦντας τὴν παραλίαν·''

    which in hebrew is
    טז לָכֵן, כֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, הִנְנִי נוֹטֶה יָדִי עַל-פְּלִשְׁתִּים, וְהִכְרַתִּי אֶת-כְּרֵתִים; וְהַאֲבַדְתִּי, אֶת-שְׁאֵרִית חוֹף הַיָּם.

    which in Hebrew is Heret or Harit from Caphthor

  13. #2913
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    22-05-21
    Posts
    4


    Country: Greece



    Hello,

    according to this paper, what percentage of the Late Bronze Era Myceneans and Minoans were J2a?

  14. #2914
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    587


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos80 View Post
    Hello,

    according to this paper, what percentage of the Late Bronze Era Myceneans and Minoans were J2a?
    2 Mycenaeans were J2a out of 4. Also 4 Empuries samples that were Mycenean-like were all J, probably all J2a too.
    J2a is very high in Sicily, especially Eastern Sicily, Calabria, Crete, and it is higher in Maniots than in other Peloponnesians.

  15. #2915
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    22-05-21
    Posts
    4


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    2 Mycenaeans were J2a out of 4. Also 4 Empuries samples that were Mycenean-like were all J, probably all J2a too.
    J2a is very high in Sicily, especially Eastern Sicily, Calabria, Crete, and it is higher in Maniots than in other Peloponnesians.
    Thank you for your answer.
    Could that mean that the Myceneans were a more or less homogeneous people regarding their Y Dna ancestry?
    The pie chart with the various haplogroups would be like modern day Ireland, if that is the case.


    Is any research done on what haplogroup were the classical Greeks and what were the percentages of each haplogroup?


    Empuries was an Ionian colony in the antiquity. If they were predominantly J2, then the classical Athenians could possibly be predominantly J2 too.


    I wonder what haplogroup the Spartans and the Macedonians were.

  16. #2916
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    587


    Country: Albania



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos80 View Post
    Thank you for your answer.
    Could that mean that the Myceneans were a more or less homogeneous people regarding their Y Dna ancestry?
    The pie chart with the various haplogroups would be like modern day Ireland, if that is the case.


    Is any research done on what haplogroup were the classical Greeks and what were the percentages of each haplogroup?


    Empuries was an Ionian colony in the antiquity. If they were predominantly J2, then the classical Athenians could possibly be predominantly J2 too.

    I wonder what haplogroup the Spartans and the Macedonians were.
    "The pie chart with the various haplogroups would be like modern day Ireland, if that is the case."
    Ireland is 70%-80% R1b.
    I suppose something like that but more diverse. J2a, G, T and the Anatolian R1b IMO were 95%-99% of Mycenaean Y-DNA. With J2a being on top.
    Maybe Peloponnese in Bronze Age was 50%-60% J2a.



    "Is any research done on what haplogroup were the classical Greeks and what were the percentages of each haplogroup?"
    No, that's a very hard one.

  17. #2917
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    153

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    One R1b was found in Ambracia, in Classical Greece (unpublished result). On the mtDNA side, several haplogroup H samples were found, and one haplogroup W. It would not be surprising to find more R1b in Classical Greece or later, given how widespread it is.

  18. #2918
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    1,091

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    rare E-FGC7391
    MtDNA haplogroup
    h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    One R1b was found in Ambracia, in Classical Greece (unpublished result). On the mtDNA side, several haplogroup H samples were found, and one haplogroup W. It would not be surprising to find more R1b in Classical Greece or later, given how widespread it is.
    Do you know the other y haplogroups
    From classical greece ( unpublished) ?

    P.s
    Should be e-v13 and j2 ..
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

  19. #2919
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    153

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Do you know the other y haplogroups
    From classical greece ( unpublished) ?
    P.s
    Should be e-v13 and j2 ..

    None yet except for the one R1b sample shared by another Eupedia member in a video, that I posted above. It was also said some R1b was found in Mycenaeans.

    Eurogenes says some unpublished classical Greece samples are heterogenous but he will not provide any details (except for some close to Cyprus). Heterogenous how, I wonder, south to north, closer to Levant or Caucasus, more west or northwest, etc?

  20. #2920
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    262


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post

    Eurogenes says some unpublished classical Greece samples are heterogenous but he will not provide any details (except for some close to Cyprus). Heterogenous how, I wonder, south to north, closer to Levant or Caucasus, more west or northwest, etc?
    The outliers would probably be close to the MBA North Greek samples all the way to samples which are close to Cyprus.

    Do we have Autosomal DNA of the unpublished Greek sample? Or just the haplogroup? When will the research be published?

  21. #2921
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,471

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    (R1b-F1794) R-M269
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The outliers would probably be close to the MBA North Greek samples all the way to samples which are close to Cyprus.

    Do we have Autosomal DNA of the unpublished Greek sample? Or just the haplogroup? When will the research be published?
    Indeed, autosomal context is important. I'd imagine Iran_N/CHG is far more likely, than Levantine input. Based on what we have already seen. For example, the Greek input in Calabria and the rest of Southern Italy in Sarno et al. 2021 shows Iran_N/CHG input, not Levantine.

  22. #2922
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    1,091

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    rare E-FGC7391
    MtDNA haplogroup
    h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    None yet except for the one R1b sample shared by another Eupedia member in a video, that I posted above. It was also said some R1b was found in Mycenaeans.

    Eurogenes says some unpublished classical Greece samples are heterogenous but he will not provide any details (except for some close to Cyprus). Heterogenous how, I wonder, south to north, closer to Levant or Caucasus, more west or northwest, etc?

    r1b is the alpha male of ancient remains
    we see it everywhere and in high number dominant

  23. #2923
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,471

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    (R1b-F1794) R-M269
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Indeed, autosomal context is important. I'd imagine Iran_N/CHG is far more likely, than Levantine input. Based on what we have already seen. For example, the Greek input in Calabria and the rest of Southern Italy in Sarno et al. 2021 shows Iran_N/CHG input, not Levantine.
    Greek colonization began to slowly accrue between 800 BC - 700 BC:






  24. #2924
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    153

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The outliers would probably be close to the MBA North Greek samples all the way to samples which are close to Cyprus.

    Do we have Autosomal DNA of the unpublished Greek sample? Or just the haplogroup? When will the research be published?
    Eurogenes says (just trying to report, not giving or taking away validity) that a study should come out soon, showing Greek DNA from different ancient periods and the Middle Ages. Looking very forward to it, but we know these studies take a long time.

    To my knowledge the material I referenced above shows only uniparental markers, though the screenshot I took of the video says aDNA. Here is the video from which the samples came.

    https://youtu.be/HGKZKoH4yv0

    Eurogenes does say that the Classical Greek DNA samples are broadly Mycenaean and Anatolia/Levant, but heterogenous. When asked if there is overlap with modern Greeks, he said Slavs came from the north and did not give a direct yes or no answer.

  25. #2925
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-04-17
    Posts
    23






    I honestly don't see them being in any great hurry to release Classical Greek samples (at least legit ones).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •