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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #2926
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Eurogenes says (just trying to report, not giving or taking away validity) that a study should come out soon, showing Greek DNA from different ancient periods and the Middle Ages. Looking very forward to it, but we know these studies take a long time.
    To my knowledge the material I referenced above shows only uniparental markers, though the screenshot I took of the video says aDNA. Here is the video from which the samples came.
    https://youtu.be/HGKZKoH4yv0
    Eurogenes does say that the Classical Greek DNA samples are broadly Mycenaean and Anatolia/Levant, but heterogenous. When asked if there is overlap with modern Greeks, he said Slavs came from the north and did not give a direct yes or no answer.
    Yes you took the words from my mouth. When he was asked about whenever there will be some sort of a northern shift in Classical Greeks he a left a vague response: "from the north came the Slavs".
    He also said that most Balkan samples are like the Thracian sample but with more Steppe. Probably not refering to old Greek samples he has seen.

    I am not so sure that is the same study (in the Youtube link) that Davidski is talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Yes you took the words from my mouth. When he was asked about whenever there will be some sort of a northern shift in Classical Greeks he a left a vague response: "from the north came the Slavs".
    He also said that most Balkan samples are like the Thracian sample but with more Steppe. Probably not refering to old Greek samples he has seen.
    I am not so sure that is the same study (in the Youtube link) that Davidski is talking about.
    But eurogenes wasn't the guy that claimed that mycaeneans were going to turn out pure corded ware and yamnaya like? Should his words taken for granted?
    Last edited by Bill7; 26-05-21 at 00:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill7 View Post
    But eurogenes wasn't the guy that claimed that mycaeneans were going to turn out pure corded ware and yamnaya like? Should his words taken fot granted?
    He has seen the samples but that might not be the full picture. Maybe those were just from Peloponnese or the South.
    Nobodies predictions should be taken for granted. Most people thought years ago that I2a was mostly Illyrian in Dalmatia and that turned out to be a big error. I used to suspect that Bronze Age Sicilians were very close to old Greeks before the colonization that turned out to be false.

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    I wonder how davidski knows
    All this
    ..
    Does he got friends in those labs
    That leak information for him ....


    p.s
    i wish i would have this kind of friends
    Last edited by kingjohn; 25-05-21 at 14:34.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    He has seen the samples but that might not be the full picture. Maybe those were just from Peloponnese or the South.
    Nobodies predictions should be taken for granted. Most people thought years ago that I2a was mostly Illyrian in Dalmatia and that turned out to be a big error. I used to suspect that Bronze Age Sicilians were very close to old Greeks before the colonization that turned out to be false.
    I see we will wait to see the full picture my prediction is that iron age Greeks are going to be mycaenean like maybe with an extra 5-15% steppe plus some anatolian admixture I guess

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Yes you took the words from my mouth. When he was asked about whenever there will be some sort of a northern shift in Classical Greeks he a left a vague response: "from the north came the Slavs".
    He also said that most Balkan samples are like the Thracian sample but with more Steppe. Probably not refering to old Greek samples he has seen.

    I am not so sure that is the same study (in the Youtube link) that Davidski is talking about.
    The study in the Youtube video is from Ambrakia, a colony of the Corinthians in Epirus. There were only two Y-DNA haplogroups identified, one r1b and the other G. There was damage to the other male samples so they could not determine their haplogroup.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 25-05-21 at 16:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    The study in the Youtube video is from Ambrakia, a colony of the Corinthians in Epirus. There were only two Y-DNA hapless identified, one r1b and the other G. There was damage to the other male samples.

    thanks
    so it was cornithian colony
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambracia
    but 2 samples is extremely low number
    bummer

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks
    so it was cornithian colony
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambracia
    but 2 samples is extremely low number
    bummer
    Yeah, people don't understand how few samples are actually usable from all the tombs. Then you have funding issues and graduate student schedules, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    He has seen the samples but that might not be the full picture. Maybe those were just from Peloponnese or the South.
    Nobodies predictions should be taken for granted. Most people thought years ago that I2a was mostly Illyrian in Dalmatia and that turned out to be a big error. I used to suspect that Bronze Age Sicilians were very close to old Greeks before the colonization that turned out to be false.
    There was never any doubt on it, 10-12 years ago Kenn Nordvedt clearly explained that I2a-Din is a Slavic marker through and through. because people didn't bother to read it, that's another story.

    Also, on 2008 Dienekes Pontikos explained that E-V13 has a Late Bronze Age expansion, but he couldn't pinpoint from which direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill7 View Post
    But eurogenes wasn't the guy that claimed that mycaeneans were going to turn out pure corded ware and yamnaya like? Should his words taken fot granted?

    He was dead wrong concerning the Mycenaeans. However, Davidski's leak about the Roman paper turned out to be overall right.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    There was never any doubt on it, 10-12 years ago Kenn Nordvedt clearly explained that I2a-Din is a Slavic marker through and through. because people didn't bother to read it, that's another story.

    Also, on 2008 Dienekes Pontikos explained that E-V13 has a Late Bronze Age expansion, but he couldn't pinpoint from which direction.
    Have we found out later which direction? It seems east right?
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    He was dead wrong concerning the Mycenaeans. However, Davidski's leak about the Roman paper turned out to be overall right.
    It was other people who leaked some results of the paper on Ancient Rome, not him.

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    I would like to ask something. Is it possible to say how much slavic ancestry Greeks have? I have seen many users on anthrogenica claiming that Greeks and Albanians have atleast 35-40% balto-slavic dreaft but that seems an exaggeration what do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill7 View Post
    I would like to ask something. Is it possible to say how much slavic ancestry Greeks have? I have seen many users on anthrogenica claiming that Greeks and Albanians have atleast 35-40% balto-slavic dreaft but that seems an exaggeration what do you think?
    Compared to Myceneaen and Slovaks. You can use a ruler with academic PCAs you can see that Greek Macedonians are shifted 1/3 on average towards Poles. Slovaks are more southern than Poles plus when taking in consideration some negligible Anatolian ancestry which influences a southern shift, you get similar percentages 35%-40%.
    But it's not all just Slavic but also more 'northern' ancestry.
    Last edited by ihype02; 27-05-21 at 21:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Compared to Myceneaen and Slovaks. You can use a ruler with academic PCAs you can see that Greek Macedonians are shifted 1/3 on average towards Poles. Slovaks are more southern than Poles plus when taking in consideration some neglible Anatolian ancestry which influences a southern shift, you get similar percentages 35%-40%.
    But it's not all just Slavic but also more 'nothern' ancestry.
    Yeah I agree this northern ancestry is not all slavic some of it might be present in Greece prior to slavs or it could be from hellenized thracians, illyrians, paeonians. I also believe that ancient Macedonians were more northern shifted than mycaeneans. I personally doubt that Greeks have more than 20% actual slavic ancestry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Greek colonization began to slowly accrue between 800 BC - 700 BC:


    Sarno et al. 2021 attributes some of the ancestry in south Italians to Ancient Greeks. Why would some of the ancestry survive there, and not in Greece itself, according to eurogenes, questioning even 1%? I personally get 43% "Greek & Albanian", and only "2% Cyprus" according to Ancestry DNA. The Greeks of this age would not be substantially Cypriot.



    Edit: 3% Cyprus
    Last edited by Jovialis; 27-05-21 at 14:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Sarno et al. 2021 attributes some of the ancestry in south Italians to Ancient Greeks. Why would some of the ancestry survive there, and not in Greece itself, according to eurogenes, questioning even 1%? I personally get 43% "Greek & Albanian", and only "2% Cyprus" according to Ancestry DNA. The Greeks of this age would not be substantially Cypriot.
    In amateur calculators they show up as 5% Anatolian. But I don't even automatically trust the interpretations of scientists let alone some forum members. I only take strict facts for granted like : "Old Greeks carried J2a." "Old Greek plot close to Southern Italians."
    Those statements are facts. Now you can use those facts and derive a complete different story from another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill7 View Post
    Yeah I agree this northern ancestry is not all slavic some of it might be present in Greece prior to slavs or it could be from hellenized thracians, illyrians, paeonians. I also believe that ancient Macedonians were more northern shifted than mycaeneans. I personally doubt that Greeks have more than 20% actual slavic ancestry
    Helladic Middle Bronze Age Log_2 had tones of Steppe, so some cherry picked samples don't picture the whole mosaique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Helladic Middle Bronze Age Log_2 had tones of Steppe, so some cherry picked samples don't picture the whole mosaique.
    some "insiders" said that we are gonna see more steppe heavy paleobalkan samples. I also thought that we had ancient thracian and illyrian remains which clustered with modern Bulgarians and Romanians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill7 View Post
    some "insiders" said that we are gonna see more steppe heavy paleobalkan samples. I also thought that we had ancient thracian and illyrian remains which clustered with modern Bulgarians and Romanians
    These calculators are very basic, nested if's and else's in JavaScript. They just compare a very basic percentage splits between components.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    In amateur calculators they show up as 5% Anatolian. But I don't even automatically trust the interpretations of scientists let alone some forum members. I only take strict facts for granted like : "Old Greeks carried J2a." "Old Greek plot close to Southern Italians."
    Those statements are facts. Now you can use those facts and derive a complete different story from another.


    Reconstruction of Greek from Magna Grecia. If you ask me this man could fit right in South Italy, but also modern Greece, and Albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Compared to Myceneaen and Slovaks. You can use a ruler with academic PCAs you can see that Greek Macedonians are shifted 1/3 on average towards Poles. Slovaks are more southern than Poles plus when taking in consideration some neglible Anatolian ancestry which influences a southern shift, you get similar percentages 35%-40%.
    But it's not all just Slavic but also more 'nothern' ancestry.
    After seeing that in the EBA there was much more steppe ancestry in places like the Thesally/Macedonia border area than the South of Greece, and taking into consideration the rumors that there were also Cypriot like classical Greeks, we shouldn't take anything for granted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    After seeing that in the EBA there was much more steppe ancestry in places like the Thesally/Macedonia border area than the South of Greece, and taking into consideration the rumors that there were also Cypriot like classical Greeks, we shouldn't take anything for granted.
    But it should be next to impossible for thessalian epirotans and Macedonian Greeks during the iron age to be log_2 like and southern Greeks to be cypriot - anatolian like. Modern mainland Greeks even today are close to each other genetically and cluster closely

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill7 View Post
    But it should be next to impossible for thessalian epirotans and Macedonian Greeks during the iron age to be log_2 like and southern Greeks to be cypriot - anatolian like. Modern mainland Greeks even today are close to each other genetically and cluster closely
    Greeks were not totally homogeneous. There were of different tribes or clans. Then they mixed with the locals and we don't know how differentiated they were from each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Sarno et al. 2021 attributes some of the ancestry in south Italians to Ancient Greeks
    In what part of the paper exactly?

    You keep misquoting this paper. They only leave it open as a possibility, while not finding any evidence of it. It was shared ancestry from Neolithic populations that they found.

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