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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Here is their main conclusion on the topic:


    "Importantly, the same ancestral sources are equally shared both by the present-day “open” (i.e. not-isolated) Southern Italian populations of Benevento, Castrovillari and Catanzaro, as well as by the geographically and linguistically-isolated communities of the Aspromonte mountain area, thus signaling a common genetic background that possibly predates the linguistic hypotheses originally suggested about the times of formation of the Greco language in Southern Italy. Accordingly, we hypothesize that the genetic continuity between Southern Italian populations and the other Mediterranean groups may date back to these Neolithic and post-Neolithic events and may have been subsequently maintained and in some cases reinforced by continuous and overlapping gene flows following similar paths of diffusion and interaction between populations, among which the migrations of Greek-speaking people during the classical era (Magna Graecia) and/or in Byzantine and subsequent times."

    Only to a connection that predates Magnia Graecia has been evidenced, but they hypothesize interaction may have continued, which has not been detected yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    In what part of the paper exactly?

    You keep misquoting this paper. They only leave it open as a possibility, while not finding any evidence of it. It was shared ancestry from Neolithic populations that they found.
    I have misquoted nothing, you are begging the question with a decidedly negative approach. Excuse me, but it is extremely likely that SOME of the ancestry in southern Italy is attributed to the Ancient Greeks. Considering the FACT that they colonized the area, and were a significant presence.

    "It was shared ancestry from Neolithic populations that they found."


    So you draw a hard and fast conclusion solely on this, but not the possibility of ancient Greek contributions?


    I strongly dislike the tone of your post, and from the looks of your profile, I think you may be one of that retarded "Romanian" t-roll's socks.

    Previous surveys on the ancient genetic legacy of Southern Italy pointed to genetic contributions linking Southern Italy and Mediterranean Greek islands with Anatolia and the Caucasus tracing back to migratory events occurred during the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, in which the Mediterranean served as a preferential crossroad3,13,27. In particular, while the expansion of Anatolian Neolithic farmers significantly impacted all the Peninsula, differential Bronze-Age contributions were observed for Southern Italy with respect to Northern Italian populations. Bronze Age influences in the gene pool of Southern Italians have been in fact associated to a non-steppe Caucasian-related ancestry carried along the Mediterranean shores at the same time, but independently from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe migrations that occurred through Continental Europe. Consistently with this viewpoint, genetic analyses performed by comparing our modern populations with the main ancient ancestral sources have displayed the clustering of analysed Southern Italian groups with Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from Anatolian, Aegean Minoan and Mycenaean populations, as opposed to the affinity of Northern Italy with Late-Neolithic and Bronze-Age samples from continental Europe (Suppl. Figure S8). Accordingly, both f3-outgroup, qpGraph and qpAdmixture analyses (Fig. 4, Suppl. Figure S9, Suppl. Figure S10) revealed influences related to a Steppe ancestry in the Northern Italian groups, instead paralleled in Southern Italy by an analogous Caucasian-related contribution from a non-Steppe CHG/Iran_N source. Importantly, the same ancestral sources are equally shared both by the present-day “open” (i.e. not-isolated) Southern Italian populations of Benevento, Castrovillari and Catanzaro, as well as by the geographically and linguistically-isolated communities of the Aspromonte mountain area (Fig. 4, Suppl. Table S8), thus signaling a common genetic background that possibly predates the linguistic hypotheses originally suggested about the times of formation of the Greco language in Southern Italy. Accordingly, we hypothesize that the genetic continuity between Southern Italian populations and the other Mediterranean groups may date back to these Neolithic and post-Neolithic events and may have been subsequently maintained and in some cases reinforced by continuous and overlapping gene flows following similar paths of diffusion and interaction between populations, among which the migrations of Greek-speaking people during the classical era (Magna Graecia) and/or in Byzantine and subsequent times. Therefore, the observed patterns could be linked to a tendency to mobility that has always characterized these populations, resulting in continuous cultural and genetic exchanges over time. That being so, the Calabrian Greek ethno-linguistic minorities of Southern Italy may be interpreted as the remnants of a wider area of Greek influence, that by virtue of their geographic isolation have preserved and evolved a unique variety of Greek which has survived through centuries in the mountains of the Aspromonte area. At this respect, the communities showing higher signatures of genetic isolation (Roghudi, Gallicianò, Condofuri and Roccaforte del Greco; Suppl. Figure S4, Suppl. Figure S5) are also the ones located in the more impervious areas of the Aspromonte, at the same time still conserving a certain number of Greco speakers (Suppl. Table S1)40,41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I strongly dislike the tone of your post, and from the looks of your profile, I think you may be one of that retarded "Romanian" t-roll's socks.
    There you go again with personal attacks, responding to substantive comments with language for which you give infractions to regular members. Nobody is interested in your tone preferences btw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I have misquoted nothing, you are begging the question with a decidedly negative approach. Excuse me, but it is extremely likely that SOME of the ancestry in southern Italy is attributed to the Ancient Greeks. Considering the FACT that they colonized the area, and were a significant presence.

    "It was shared ancestry from Neolithic populations that they found."


    So you draw a hard and fast conclusion solely on this, but not the possibility of ancient Greek contributions?
    First, please do not change what I said. I did not contest the truthfulness of Ancient Greek ancestry in South Italians, which in my opinion, despite not having been detected yet, will likely be captured in future studies, maybe once IA samples emerge.

    I contested your claim that "Sarno et al. 2021 attributes some of the ancestry in south Italians to Ancient Greeks", which is simply untrue, and thus a misquote. They did not attribute any ancestry in South Italians to Ancient Greeks. They only hypothesized about it in the conclusion and left it as an open-ended question to be researched further in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    There you go again with personal attacks, responding to substantive comments with language for which you give infractions to regular members. Nobody is interested in your tone preferences btw.



    First, please do not change what I said. I did not contest the truthfulness of Ancient Greek ancestry in South Italians, which in my opinion, despite not having been detected yet, will likely be captured in future studies, maybe once IA samples emerge.

    I contested your claim that "Sarno et al. 2021 attributes some of the ancestry in south Italians to Ancient Greeks", which is simply untrue, and thus a misquote. They did not attribute any ancestry in South Italians to Ancient Greeks. They only hypothesized about it in the conclusion and left it as an open-ended question to be researched further in the future.
    There I go again? Have we spoken before? Is this some kind of ban evasion you are pulling?

    You don't contest the truthfulness, then what are you saying? You don't believe it, yet you believe it? You are being needlessly contrarian.

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    Why is it that two socks of the "Romanian" t-roll always circulate around the same set of Albanian members profiles? This is highly peculiar, I am starting to think these members are colluding in trying to disrupt the website.



    • Panda
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    I can see who sees what, who messages who, and who upvotes who. Don't think you are so slick...



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    Don't lie. I have no messages besides your infraction notices and one from Giannicus. I have no idea who those two are.

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    It is unwise to suggest that using the word "attribute" and the authors suggesting in a hypothesis with a very likely scenario is not basically the same thing. You are not the policing language here, enough with the denialism, go to Eurogenes for that. It is a PATHETIC grasp at straws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    It is unwise to suggest that using the word "attribute" and the author's suggesting in a hypothesis with a very likely scenario is not basically the same thing.
    This is not semantics. They did not attribute Ancient Greek ancestry to South Italians. That is the simple truth, yet you keep claiming they did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    This is not semantics. They did not attribute Ancient Greek ancestry to South Italians. That is the simple truth, yet you keep claiming they did.
    You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth, because you said that you believe they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    What I am saying is very clear: South Italians may have some ancestry from Ancient Greeks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    First, please do not change what I said. I did not contest the truthfulness of Ancient Greek ancestry in South Italians, which in my opinion, despite not having been detected yet, will likely be captured in future studies, maybe once IA samples emerge.
    And again here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth, because you said that you believe they did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Believe it or not, it is possible to have beliefs without claiming a paper supported them.

    - It is my own belief that South Italians have some Ancient Greek ancestry.
    - It is a fact that Sarno et al did not state that South Italians have some Ancient Greek ancestry.

    I don't know if such a simple distinction can be made any clearer than this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post

    Believe it or not, it is possible to have beliefs without claiming a paper supported them.

    - It is my own belief that South Italians have some Ancient Greek ancestry.
    - It is a fact that Sarno et al did not state that South Italians have some Ancient Greek ancestry.

    I don't know if such a simple distinction can be made any clearer than this.
    They only proposed it as a likely hypothesis that they ATTRIBUTED it to them. You are being insufferable!

    Accordingly, we hypothesize that the genetic continuity between Southern Italian populations and the other Mediterranean groups may date back to these Neolithic and post-Neolithic events and may have been subsequently maintained and in some cases reinforced by continuous and overlapping gene flows following similar paths of diffusion and interaction between populations, among which the migrations of Greek-speaking people during the classical era (Magna Graecia) and/or in Byzantine and subsequent times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    Greek continuity from the BA cannot be evaluated properly with the crumbs of data that has been made available so far. Data from IA to the Late Middle Ages is completely lacking. We only have a limited amount of BA samples, and modern samples from Greece (very few used in studies for some reason).

    The Antonio et al paper on Rome showed how modern results overlapping with IA or BA ones are not necessarily indicative of the former being descendant of the latter, as modern samples there overlap with IA and Republic-era results, but the intermediate periods show significant south-eastern and then north-western shifts. The authors attributed this to migrants from the East Mediterranean first, and from Central Europe later (which was not well-taken here I remember). So the overlap between IA and modern samples was at least partially coincidental. If we had from Rome, only the amount of data we have from Greece, many would now be speaking about genetic continuity from the Iron Age to today.

    So far, it can only be said that modern Greeks are among the European peoples who plot near samples from BA Greece. This hints, at the very least, to shared ancestry between modern Greeks and those samples, but this could be due to either modern Greeks descending of those BA populations, or of other populations that had similar ancestry components, or (more likely) both. But it does not prove either possibility. Just like in Rome, it may be that the modern and BA similarity has a more complex explanation.

    There are already small hints that favor a similar scenario in mainland Greece, while the islands may have been largely unaffected. We now know that Steppe-related ancestry arrived to the Aegean during MBA, as it is missing from earlier periods. Therefore, new samples from MBA mainland Greece likely represent some of the most Steppe-like prehistoric populations of the region, and such ancestry was almost certainly subsequently diluted through admixture with non-Steppe peoples of the Aegean. In fact, Mycenean samples of the Late Bronze Age already show diminished Steppe-related ancestry, and this trend probably continued through the IA and into Antiquity. So if the latest study showed that modern mainland Greeks can be modeled as the heavily Steppe MBA samples with some additional Steppe ancestry, it is probable that a larger Steppe-related component is required to model them with IA or Classical period Ancient Greeks, which would suggest important influxes from the north in subsequent periods.
    Seemingly your entire existence on this board is to deny Greeks and Italians any continuity to their ancestors, why is it that some Albanians are obsessed with doing this? Perhaps if you read the paper from Antonio et al. 2019, you would see how deeply flawed your paragraph is. The Eastern Immigrants did not contribute to the later populations, dying out according to their sample set in the middle ages. Funny how you are absolutely certain of something which is false, but fits your prejudice. FYI there are samples from the Iron Age in Italy that are near both Northern, and Southern Italians; within the same haplotype-sharing groups. Your ignorance is a disgrace!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    They only proposed it as a likely hypothesis that they ATTRIBUTED it to them. You are being insufferable!

    Accordingly, we hypothesize that the genetic continuity between Southern Italian populations and the other Mediterranean groups may date back to these Neolithic and post-Neolithic events and may have been subsequently maintained and in some cases reinforced by continuous and overlapping gene flows following similar paths of diffusion and interaction between populations, among which the migrations of Greek-speaking people during the classical era (Magna Graecia) and/or in Byzantine and subsequent times.
    Yes, this is the exact paragraph I quoted earlier. The part mentioning the Neolithic is what they have detected, the part talking about later periods is what they think may be detected in the future. Note the difference, it's clearly stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Seemingly your entire existence on this board is to deny Greeks and Italians any continuity to their ancestors, why is it that some Albanians are obsessed with doing this? Perhaps if you read the paper from Antonio et al. 2019, you would see how deeply flawed your paragraph is. The Eastern Immigrants did not contribute to the later populations, dying out according to their sample set in the middle ages. Funny how you are absolutely certain of something which is false, but fits your prejudice. FYI there are samples from the Iron Age in Italy that are near both Northern, and Southern Italians; within the same haplotype-sharing groups. Your ignorance is a disgrace!
    Personal attacks and stereotypes once again... No, Greek-Italian connections are not my main focus, but it is the most commonly and actively discussed topic here, by far, so I participate. Also, I don't aim to deny this connection altogether, just understand it and discuss it within the limits of scientific findings.

    Of course I have read the paper, many times actually. I think it is one of the best papers on Mediterranean archaeogenetics. Maybe you misunderstood my points in the post you quoted. Which part did you find inaccurate?

    Take it easy btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    Yes, this is the exact paragraph I quoted earlier. The part mentioning the Neolithic is what they have detected, the part talking about later periods is what they think may be detected in the future. Note the difference, it's clearly stated.



    Personal attacks and stereotypes once again... No, Greek-Italian connections are not my main focus, but it is the most commonly and actively discussed topic here, by far, so I participate. Also, I don't aim to deny this connection altogether, just understand it and discuss it within the limits of scientific findings.

    Of course I have read the paper, many times actually. I think it is one of the best papers on Mediterranean archaeogenetics. Maybe you misunderstood my points in the post you quoted. Which part did you find inaccurate?

    Take it easy btw.
    FWIW, I have long said on this website that I speculate that there are native Greek-like populations, that have been in southern Italy, prior to arrival of the Greeks. However, they were re-enforced by Greek colonization. I think the Sarno et al. 2021 hypothesis shares this sentiment. In fact, I suggested that the so-call Latin outliers from Antonio et al. 2019, who cluster with southerners, may be representative of this populations. As well as many of the C6 haplotype cohort that is present in the Imperial era, and subsequent eras.


    Perhaps I have been a bit harsh, so in a show of good faith, I will reverse your infractions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    FWIW, I have long said on this website that I speculate that there are native Greek-like populations, that have been in southern Italy, prior to arrival of the Greeks. However, they were re-enforced by Greek colonization. I think the Sarno et al. 2021 hypothesis shares this sentiment.
    This is something I agree with, and I think sooner or later there will be a paper which traces the ancestry of southern Italians, or at least some regions or groups, partially to Ancient Greeks. Until now, if you ask me, the strongest and maybe only direct evidence for that in a scientific paper, is not from Sarno et al but the Finocchio et al, 2018: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9

    J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution... ...The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE...

    I don't think all of J2a-L397 (J-L70) in the Mediterranean is linked to the Ancient Greeks, and if they had a larger sample from other countries they may have evidenced that, but at least some of its subclades should be.

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    Although many consider one of the Latins an Outlier, no Latins made it into (M.L. Antonio) Table S27 (Significant genetic outliers for each time period … )

    If it was highly unusual the authors would have added it in the table.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf

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    Jovialis/Salento/Cerc:

    I put my MTA map. The Greek colonization in Southern Italian Mainland and Sicily we all agree started around 800 BC. Otzi is my best ancient Match on MTA but I get several ancient Greeks, including some from the most recent study (Clemente et al 2021 "The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations") along with R850 (Antonio et al 2019). I also get a match to R437 but it fell out of my top 100 for this Kit (It is still in an older Kit run that I have kept to document it is a Deep Dive match). But I think in my case, which is anecdotal, there are 5 ancient Greeks that I get deep matches with in period well before 800 BC, and of course Otzi a Late Neolithic Italian along with 2 Republican Romans and numerous Imperial Romans.

    I don't think either of my Y and mtdna Haplogroups can be categorized as Greek per se so it seems in my case there is some common ancestry in both ancient Sicily and mainland Southern Italy and Greece that existed well before the Greek Colonization circa 800 BC.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    This is something I agree with, and I think sooner or later there will be a paper which traces the ancestry of southern Italians, or at least some regions or groups, partially to Ancient Greeks. Until now, if you ask me, the strongest and maybe only direct evidence for that in a scientific paper, is not from Sarno et al but the Finocchio et al, 2018: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9
    J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution... ...The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE...
    I don't think all of J2a-L397 (J-L70) in the Mediterranean is linked to the Ancient Greeks, and if they had a larger sample from other countries they may have evidenced that, but at least some of its subclades should be.
    I don't think this is a better study than Sarno et al. 2021, considering they don't even use ancient DNA for autosomal analysis.

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    @Jovialis
    I regret the tone taken by your opposition to Cerç (you 'chilled' down a bit, what I find correct), because you're an educated man and very often competent and open minded. I 'm not taking too much part in this interesting thread, but on the little I 've read of his arguments, and his doubts, I think they are kind of legitimate prudence in front of diverse affirmations of continuity, here and there, for more than a pop. Whatever which side has the truth, I find we can and may exchange our oppositions of views without it would be taken as a try to sink a thread down. We need calm and to distinguish intellectual opposition and trolling.
    I hope my words will not be taken as an offense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill7 View Post
    But it should be next to impossible for thessalian epirotans and Macedonian Greeks during the iron age to be log_2 like and southern Greeks to be cypriot - anatolian like. Modern mainland Greeks even today are close to each other genetically and cluster closely
    Obviously not. They are probably the outliers of the Greek genetic mainframe. Most classical Greeks will be anywhere between those two groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Jovialis
    I regret the tone taken by your opposition to Cerç (you 'chilled' down a bit, what I find correct), because you're an educated man and very often competent and open minded. I 'm not taking too much part in this interesting thread, but on the little I 've read of his arguments, and his doubts, I think they are kind of legitimate prudence in front of diverse affirmations of continuity, here and there, for more than a pop. Whatever which side has the truth, I find we can and may exchange our oppositions of views without it would be taken as a try to sink a thread down. We need calm and to distinguish intellectual opposition and trolling.
    I hope my words will not be taken as an offense.
    Ironically, he and I generally agree. However, if you look back at the origin of this dispute, it was his tone which I found to be less than civil. At any rate, the issue is moot, all is good.


    Nevertheless, there is a kind of Albanian-click that is constantly causing conflicts here. Not all Albanian members, some of whom I actually like reading posts from, like iHype. Further I don't think Cere is one of them. I will not name, names, but I find some of the activity behind the scenes, highly suspicious. Which I suspect is connected to a very disruptive t-roll. Please understand, there is more context to this issue. Further, who knows if these actors are even Albanian? They could be using it as a cover, to sow conflict, which would not surprise me. I don't want people to feel as though I am targeting people based on their ethnicity. If you look back thread you will see I try to be as open as possible to all members. I myself have a commonality with Albanians (and Greeks) according to the Ancestry DNA breakdown, which I think is pretty cool.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Reconstruction of Greek from Magna Grecia. If you ask me this man could fit right in South Italy, but also modern Greece, and Albania.
    Like the saying goes ”Una Faccia, Una Razza.”

    PEACE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Like the saying goes ”Una Faccia, Una Razza.”

    PEACE
    And we both like to talk with our hands and are loud and expressive and loving.

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    A lot of folks want to claim some sort of affinity with the Ancient Greeks but I do think genetically Southern Italians and Eastern Aegean Greek Islanders are the closest. I'm a mainland Greek with deep roots in the Peloponnese but from my observations of various models (G25) I find to have a closer genetic link to Illyrians (usually the biggest component) and/or other Paleo-Balkanites than the heavier CHG, decreased Steppe ancient pops.

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