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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakattack View Post
    The quality is not the worst, but is by far the worst among the samples, which I don't see you commenting at... There are GEDmatch kits for them too, in case you missed it!
    Mycenaean I9041 is apparently more similar to modern Italians than Greeks (K36):

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
    IT_Lazio IT_Tuscany IT_Abruzzo FR_Corsica IT_Campania
    19.40262 20.61775 21.15594 21.54431 22.15129
    Albania_South IT_Marche IT_Apulia
    22.40601 22.47039 23.24806

    I9041

    Population percent

    IT_Lazio 58.85
    IT_Tuscany 20.55
    IT_Campania 10.30
    IT_Sardinia 7.90
    Albania_South 1.20
    IT_Abruzzo 0.90
    Gr_Kalymnos 0.15
    FR_Corsica 0.15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Mycenaean I9041 is apparently more similar to modern Italians than Greeks (K36):
    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
    IT_Lazio IT_Tuscany IT_Abruzzo FR_Corsica IT_Campania
    19.40262 20.61775 21.15594 21.54431 22.15129
    Albania_South IT_Marche IT_Apulia
    22.40601 22.47039 23.24806
    I9041
    Population percent
    IT_Lazio 58.85
    IT_Tuscany 20.55
    IT_Campania 10.30
    IT_Sardinia 7.90
    Albania_South 1.20
    IT_Abruzzo 0.90
    Gr_Kalymnos 0.15
    FR_Corsica 0.15
    Can you do em all? I mean, if you can (I don't want to be bossy).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakattack View Post
    Crete_Armenoi is a low quality sample of a female that does not posdate the Dorian arrive.
    Did I or did I not state that the usual suspects would ignore this?

    "We acknowledge the possibility that there was geographical structure in the Bronze Age Cretan population (the Armenoi sample comes from northwestern Crete; Fig. 1a), or that population change had occurred between the time of the samples from Moni Odigitria and Lasithi and the time of thisindividual, however, the lack of high quality data does not allow us to test these hypotheses further."

    If Nick Patterson signs onto that, then that's the way it is.

    Of course, that won't stop some modelers from trying to spin stories from it.



    As to this sample being half-Sardinian and half-Ukrainian...

    Davef: Interesting. I doubt any modern european group is half and half Sardinian-like and Slavic-like.
    Yeah, it's particularly interesting because there were no Slavs then.

    @Tomenable,
    I'm so glad you ran a sample which was so bad that the Reich Lab said no conclusions could be drawn from it through a Eurogenes calculator which is absolutely horrible at predicting Italian ancestry.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Angela, which one is supposedly horrible at predicting Italian ancestry?

    Please PM me your K36 results and we will see how well I can predict it.

    Yeah, it's particularly interesting because there were no Slavs then.
    But there were already Slavic-like genes (though it is possible that ethnic-specific drift increased their frequency in populations directly ancestral to Proto-Slavs only later). At K36 for example East-Central Euro and Central Euro are typically Slavic admixtures (they are named after their modern distribution) and as you can see Crete_Armenoi scores them.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    @Angela, which one is supposedly horrible at predicting Italian ancestry?

    Please PM me your K36 results and we will see how well I can predict it.



    But there were already Slavic-like genes (though it is possible that ethnic-specific drift increased their frequency in populations directly ancestral to Proto-Slavs only later). At K36 for example East-Central Euro and Central Euro are typically Slavic admixtures (they are named after their modern distribution) and as you can see Crete_Armenoi scores them.
    Mycenaeans were half-Slavs.
    Dorian's probably even more.
    Agamemnon's real name probably was Miroslav.

    We got your point.


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    @Sakattack,

    No it is rather about branching off from a common branch of Indo-European ancestors.

    @Mlukas,

    Will you upload these ancient Greeks to DNA.Land, like you did with Sarmatians?:



    I want to see how much of "North Slavic" will Crete_Armenoi get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    No it is rather about branching from common Indo-European ancestors.

    @Mlukas,

    Will you upload these ancient Greeks to DNA.Land, like you did with Sarmatians?: :)



    I want to see how much "North Slavic" will Crete_Armenoi get. :)
    You used the worst possible sample.
    You used one of the worst possible calculators.
    You stated openly, insisting even after the first correction, that she maybe Dorian.
    You didn't even bother to apologise for this (intended?) mistake.
    And you are overdrawing conclusions.

    Get over it man. Mycenaeans are in tiny percentages "steppe-like". There is a big paper upon it. Nothing Slavic, or protoSlavic, or sameparentSlavic. Sorry to poop at your party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Can someone help an idiot out? I don't understand how (according to this chart) Thessalonikis are like Cypriots with just a small extra spread of red stuff (EHG or steppe or whatever pushes them north) and it looks like Cypriots and Thessalonkikis are closer to one of the Minoan groups (Lashi or whatever it's called). I wonder if that's true for other Greeks. I'll have to read it.
    But I'll admit that my interpretation could be far off and I don't understand what the chart is telling us.
    https://images.nature.com/full/natur...e23310-sf1.jpg
    Hey Angela, can you help me out with this please?
    Tomenable, it's cool to take pride in your background, but I don't think the Reich dudes want you to look into the cretan armeloudian queen.

    Oh crap, I'm late for something. Gotta go

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Mycenaean I9041 is apparently more similar to modern Italians than Greeks (K36):

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
    IT_Lazio IT_Tuscany IT_Abruzzo FR_Corsica IT_Campania
    19.40262 20.61775 21.15594 21.54431 22.15129
    Albania_South IT_Marche IT_Apulia
    22.40601 22.47039 23.24806

    I9041

    Population percent

    IT_Lazio 58.85
    IT_Tuscany 20.55
    IT_Campania 10.30
    IT_Sardinia 7.90
    Albania_South 1.20
    IT_Abruzzo 0.90
    Gr_Kalymnos 0.15
    FR_Corsica 0.15

    Eurogenes K36 inflates its Italian component and it gets a bit unreliable. Results from other calculators are more consistent with what Mycenaean I9041 is: a Sardinian-shifted Sicilian/South Italian/Greek islander

    MDLP K23b models Mycenaean I9041 as a Sardinian-shifted Greek as well

    75.1% Greek_Islands ( ) + 24.9% Sardinian ( ) @ 7.81
    5 77% Greek_Athens ( ) + 23% Sardinian ( ) @ 9.8
    8 81.6% Sicilian_Center ( ) + 18.4% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.04
    10 76% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 24% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.28
    13 76.8% Greek_Phokaia ( ) + 23.2% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.53
    16 76.1% Greek ( ) + 23.9% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.72
    18 83.7% Greek_Islands ( ) + 16.3% Basque_Spanish ( ) @ 11.05
    19 84.1% Greek_Islands ( ) + 15.9% Basque_French ( ) @ 11.12

    MDLP K23b Oracle results:
    Admix Results (sorted):

    #PopulationPercent
    1 Caucasian 41.3
    2 European_Early_Farmers 36.93
    3 Near_East 10.41
    4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 6.83
    5 North_African 1.4
    6 Ancestral_Altaic 1
    7 Melano_Polynesian 0.89
    8 South_Central_Asian 0.63
    9 African_Pygmy 0.61

    Single Population Sharing:

    #Population (source)Distance
    1 Italian_Abruzzo ( ) 13.44
    2 Sicilian_Center ( ) 15
    3 Kosovar ( ) 15.16
    4 Albanian_Tirana ( ) 15.37
    5 Italian_Tuscan ( ) 15.51
    6 Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) 15.84
    7 Greek_Thessaly ( ) 15.92
    8 Central_Greek ( ) 16.61
    9 Italian_Piedmont ( ) 16.77
    10 Sicilian_East ( ) 16.8
    11 Greek_Northwest ( ) 16.94
    12 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 17.15
    13 Ashkenazi ( ) 17.31
    14 Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) 17.44
    15 Italian_South ( ) 17.5
    16 Sicilian_Trapani ( ) 17.58
    17 Greek_Athens ( ) 17.69
    18 French_Jew ( ) 17.99
    19 Sicilian_Agrigento ( ) 18.15
    20 Greek_Phokaia ( ) 18.19

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    2 75.1% Greek_Islands ( ) + 24.9% Sardinian ( ) @ 7.81
    4 77.1% Italian_South ( ) + 22.9% Sardinian ( ) @ 9.5
    5 77% Greek_Athens ( ) + 23% Sardinian ( ) @ 9.8
    8 81.6% Sicilian_Center ( ) + 18.4% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.04
    10 76% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 24% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.28
    13 76.8% Greek_Phokaia ( ) + 23.2% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.53
    16 76.1% Greek ( ) + 23.9% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.72
    18 83.7% Greek_Islands ( ) + 16.3% Basque_Spanish ( ) @ 11.05
    19 84.1% Greek_Islands ( ) + 15.9% Basque_French ( ) @ 11.12

    Dodecad K12b Oracle results:


    #PopulationPercent
    1 Atlantic_Med 40.33
    2 Caucasus 40
    3 Southwest_Asian 9.37
    4 North_European 8.38
    5 Gedrosia 1.82
    6 Northwest_African 0.1

    Single Population Sharing:

    #Population (source)Distance
    1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.77
    2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.83
    3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 12.29
    4 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.34
    5 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.72
    6 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 15.47
    7 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 15.81
    8 Greek (Dodecad) 16.06
    9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.16
    10 O_Italian (Dodecad) 17.76
    11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 18.17
    12 North_Italian (HGDP) 20.37
    13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 21.35
    14 Cypriots (Behar) 22.41
    15 Baleares (1000Genomes) 28.39
    16 Turkish (Dodecad) 28.44
    17 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 29.42
    18 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 29.63
    19 Murcia (1000Genomes) 30.01
    20 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 30.25

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    3 78.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.29
    4 78.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.5% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.43



    Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    #PopulationPercent
    1 East_Med 34.36
    2 West_Med 32.11
    3 North_Atlantic 24.56
    4 West_Asian 7.75
    5 Red_Sea 1.22

    Single Population Sharing:

    #Population (source)Distance
    1 West_Sicilian 13.18
    2 South_Italian 14.27
    3 Tuscan 14.82
    4 Italian_Jewish 14.82
    5 Algerian_Jewish 15.66
    6 Italian_Abruzzo 16.21
    7 Sephardic_Jewish 16.32
    8 East_Sicilian 16.63
    9 Central_Greek 17.25
    10 Ashkenazi 18.09
    11 North_Italian 18.58
    12 Tunisian_Jewish 19.85
    13 Libyan_Jewish 20.41
    14 Greek_Thessaly 20.45
    15 Sardinian 22.13
    16 Spanish_Andalucia 23.08
    17 Spanish_Extremadura 23.98
    18 Cyprian 24.29
    19 Spanish_Murcia 24.41
    20 Spanish_Valencia 24.5

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 62% Italian_Jewish + 38% Sardinian @ 7.52
    3 64.5% South_Italian + 35.5% Sardinian @ 8.94
    5 68.4% West_Sicilian + 31.6% Sardinian @ 9.38


    Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:


    #PopulationPercent
    1 East_Med 31.38
    2 West_Med 28.12
    3 Atlantic 22.29
    4 West_Asian 9.7
    5 North_Sea 7.39
    6 Red_Sea 1.11

    Single Population Sharing:

    #Population (source)Distance
    1 West_Sicilian 12.79
    2 South_Italian 13.99
    3 Algerian_Jewish 14.6
    4 Italian_Jewish 14.85
    5 Tuscan 14.98
    6 Italian_Abruzzo 15.67
    7 East_Sicilian 15.98
    8 Sephardic_Jewish 16.1
    9 Central_Greek 16.34
    10 Greek 18.07
    11 North_Italian 18.29
    12 Tunisian_Jewish 19.11
    13 Ashkenazi 19.35
    14 Greek_Thessaly 20.04
    15 Libyan_Jewish 21.32
    16 Spanish_Andalucia 21.81
    17 Cyprian 22.21
    18 Sardinian 23.14
    19 Spanish_Murcia 23.34
    20 Spanish_Extremadura 23.5

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    3 66.3% South_Italian + 33.7% Sardinian @ 8.81
    5 70.1% West_Sicilian + 29.9% Sardinian @ 9.01


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    Mycenaeans are in tiny percentages "steppe-like".
    I don't care about the sheer amount (however a dozen or so is not "tiny"), what is important is that steppe ancestry was present. Every model shows it. And this steppe ancestry is the only thing which differentiates Non-Indo-European Minoans from Greek-speaking Mycenaeans. So ask yourself where did the Proto-Greeks come from. And obviously shortly after coming, they had to have more of steppe ancestry. But after mixing with the locals, their steppe ancestry got dilluted.

    It is likely that some of Early Mycenaeans were much more steppe than others. Because, you know, when two populations mix, initially there are big differences between individuals. Only after some generations everyone is similar to everyone else, as proportions of admixtures homogenize across the population - assuming that they intermarry freely.

    But it is unlikely that those Proto-Mycenaeans came directly from the steppe.

    So when they entered Greece, they were not 100% steppe but much less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But there were already Slavic-like genes (though it is possible that ethnic-specific drift increased their frequency in populations directly ancestral to Proto-Slavs only later). At K36 for example East-Central Euro and Central Euro are typically Slavic admixtures (they are named after their modern distribution) and as you can see Crete_Armenoi scores them.
    Slavic admixtures or "presently Slavic-majority" admixtures, you probably wanted to mean. Slavs are among the most recently expanded Indo-European groups, and because of that we have enough historic (archaeological and written) evidence that the vast majority of Slavs were part of Baltic, Germanic, Illyrian, Dacian, Thracian and Finno-Ugric ethnicities until a mere 1,000-1,500 years ago. If one finds very specific admixtures or subclades of particular haplogroups which have a noticeable peak/concentration and expansion spot from around southern Belarus/northern Ukraine, the most probable origin of Slavic people, then we'd be willing to talk about "Slavic genes" even if only in relative terms.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It is likely that some of Early Mycenaeans were much more steppe than others. Because, you know, when two populations mix, initially there are big differences between individuals. Only after some generations everyone is similar to everyone else, as proportions of admixtures homogenize across the population - assuming that they intermarry freely.
    It's quite obvious we need more samples to draw definitive conclusions. And not just for Mycenaeans and Minoans, but for any other historical population.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I don't care about the sheer amount (however a dozen or so is not "tiny"), what is important is that steppe ancestry was present. Every model shows it. And this steppe ancestry is the only thing which differentiates Non-Indo-European Minoans from Greek-speaking Mycenaeans. So ask yourself where did the Proto-Greeks come from. And obviously shortly after coming, they had to have more of steppe ancestry. But after mixing with the locals, their steppe ancestry got dilluted.
    You do care about their steppe percentages. And you care a lot! And - to be honest - you've made so far a huge effort to present it bigger than it is, giving it bigger impact than it has.
    You also care about their Y-haplos, sorry, party pooper again...

    Of course this 9-13% is important. I guess the rest 87-91% is more important though, makes 8-9 times more than the steppe their genetic make-up.

    The authors are not sure, haven't drawn any conclusions, from where it may have arrived. You take for granted that it came through the Steppe via Balkans. We'll see if you are right, but at least don't take it for granted. There are other possible explanations, for some maybe even more plausible...

    You also take for granted that the... Dorians a) invaded Greece from the North b) were half-EEF half-Slaviclike people... You really pushing it too far...

    You must admit that this paper was a direct punch in some people's faces (yours too?), who had been dreaming, speculating and insisting about the blond haired IEs with their chariots and their horses talking up Greece and writing golden history during the centuries... Well, that's not the case my friend.

    IMO based on this paper and not only, the IEs are contributed not more than 20% in Greece's genetic make-up (no more than 15% in antiquity) and I am taking about admixture IN GENERAL (including their ENF etc). Even the IE Greek language has a lot of non IE vocabulary in basic terms as well. And, to make a guess, even these steppe people, were nothing close to the modern East Europeans or Germanics.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Hey Angela, can you help me out with this please?
    Tomenable, it's cool to take pride in your background, but I don't think the Reich dudes want you to look into the cretan armeloudian queen.

    Oh crap, I'm late for something. Gotta go
    That's total and utter rubbish. You think Nick Patterson cares about these stupid internet agendas?

    Careful, your other "face" is showing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I'm Italian, from central Puglia. I spoke about it in more detail here. NG, is national geographic. But unfortunately, the Helix version doesn't allow you to download the raw data file yet.
    Central Apulia is Bari-Brindisi? NG test said that your first reference population was Greek, and the second Tuscan, because they have no South Italian reference population there. Apulians usually plot with other Southern Italians.

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    Of course I am using the "steppe" term meaning IE/PIE.

    It's possible that these people have nothing to do with the real Steppe at all, they could possibly only share genes with the real Steppe people, via numerous possible routes and admixtures...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
    Eurogenes K36 inflates its Italian component and it gets a bit unreliable.
    Admix-4 Oracle based on K36 shows Greek + Sardinian, but only with Gaussian method:

    I9041

    1) Gaussian Method:

    Gaussian method.
    Noise dispersion set to 0,130062


    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 FR_Corsica @ 4,860315
    2 IT_Lazio @ 4,878331
    3 GR_Kythera @ 4,933544
    4 IT_Campania @ 4,937751
    5 IT_Abruzzo @ 4,963038
    6 Gr_Kalymnos @ 4,986924
    7 IT_Calabria @ 5,05098
    8 IT_Apulia @ 5,218651
    9 IT_Marche @ 5,252171
    10 IT_Tuscany @ 5,287467
    11 GR_Dodecanes @ 5,287997
    12 Sicily_Messina @ 5,322997
    13 Sicily_Trapani @ 5,324955
    14 Sicily_Catania @ 5,347346
    15 Albania_South @ 5,375962
    16 GR_Ikaria @ 5,460638
    17 Malta @ 5,496799
    18 Sicily_Palermo @ 5,511079
    19 Albania_North @ 5,516049
    20 Sicily_Caltanisetta @ 5,520629
    337 iterations.


    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Sardinia @ 4,710116
    2 GR_Kythera+IT_Sardinia @ 4,755685
    3 IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia @ 4,773085
    4 Cyprus+IT_Sardinia @ 4,794487
    5 IT_Calabria+IT_Sardinia @ 4,80946
    6 GR_Dodecanes+IT_Sardinia @ 4,858273
    7 FR_Corsica+FR_Corsica @ 4,860315
    8 IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio @ 4,878331
    9 IT_Campania+IT_Lazio @ 4,890791
    10 IT_Campania+FR_Corsica @ 4,89831
    11 GR_Kythera+FR_Corsica @ 4,902538
    12 GR_Kythera+IT_Lazio @ 4,923158
    13 Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Lazio @ 4,933047
    14 GR_Kythera+GR_Kythera @ 4,933544
    15 IT_Campania+IT_Campania @ 4,937751
    16 IT_Lazio+FR_Corsica @ 4,940078
    17 IT_Calabria+FR_Corsica @ 4,946903
    18 IT_Abruzzo+IT_Lazio @ 4,949468
    19 IT_Abruzzo+IT_Sardinia @ 4,951643
    20 IT_Calabria+IT_Lazio @ 4,957579
    56953 iterations.


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Gr_Kalymnos +25% IT_Sardinia +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,710116
    2 50% IT_Campania +25% IT_Campania +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,721285
    3 50% Gr_Kalymnos +25% Gr_Kalymnos +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,723584
    4 50% IT_Campania +25% GR_Kythera +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,745798
    5 50% IT_Campania +25% Gr_Kalymnos +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,746731
    6 50% GR_Kythera +25% GR_Kythera +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,747892
    7 50% Gr_Kalymnos +25% IT_Campania +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,753109
    8 50% GR_Kythera +25% IT_Sardinia +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,755685
    9 50% GR_Kythera +25% IT_Campania +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,758602
    10 50% IT_Sardinia +25% Gr_Kalymnos +25% IT_Campania @ 4,76319
    11 50% IT_Campania +25% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,765475
    12 50% IT_Campania +25% IT_Calabria +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,765875
    13 50% IT_Sardinia +25% Gr_Kalymnos +25% GR_Kythera @ 4,769419
    14 50% IT_Campania +25% IT_Abruzzo +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,771945
    15 50% IT_Campania +25% IT_Sardinia +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,773085
    16 50% GR_Kythera +25% IT_Calabria +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,77924
    17 50% IT_Sardinia +25% GR_Kythera +25% IT_Campania @ 4,77937
    18 50% Gr_Kalymnos +25% GR_Kythera +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,781961
    19 50% GR_Kythera +25% Gr_Kalymnos +25% IT_Sardinia @ 4,784228
    20 50% IT_Sardinia +25% Gr_Kalymnos +25% IT_Calabria @ 4,784297
    17455464 iterations.


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Gr_Kalymnos+Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Sardinia+IT_Sardinia @ 4,710116
    2 IT_Campania+IT_Campania+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia @ 4,721285
    3 Gr_Kalymnos+Gr_Kalymnos+Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Sardinia @ 4,723584
    4 GR_Kythera+IT_Campania+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia @ 4,745798
    5 Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Campania+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia @ 4,746731
    6 GR_Kythera+GR_Kythera+GR_Kythera+IT_Sardinia @ 4,747892
    7 Gr_Kalymnos+Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia @ 4,753109
    8 GR_Kythera+GR_Kythera+IT_Sardinia+IT_Sardinia @ 4,755685
    9 GR_Kythera+GR_Kythera+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia @ 4,758602
    10 Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia+IT_Sardinia @ 4,76319
    11 IT_Campania+IT_Campania+IT_Lazio+IT_Sardinia @ 4,765475
    12 IT_Calabria+IT_Campania+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia @ 4,765875
    13 Gr_Kalymnos+GR_Kythera+IT_Sardinia+IT_Sardinia @ 4,769419
    14 IT_Campania+IT_Campania+IT_Abruzzo+IT_Sardinia @ 4,771945
    15 IT_Campania+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia+IT_Sardinia @ 4,773085
    16 Gr_Kalymnos+GR_Kythera+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia @ 4,775053
    17 GR_Kythera+GR_Kythera+IT_Calabria+IT_Sardinia @ 4,77924
    18 GR_Kythera+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia+IT_Sardinia @ 4,77937
    19 Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Campania+IT_Lazio+IT_Sardinia @ 4,781759
    20 Gr_Kalymnos+Gr_Kalymnos+GR_Kythera+IT_Sardinia @ 4,781961
    21 GR_Kythera+IT_Calabria+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia @ 4,78303
    22 Gr_Kalymnos+GR_Kythera+GR_Kythera+IT_Sardinia @ 4,784228
    23 Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Calabria+IT_Sardinia+IT_Sardinia @ 4,784297
    24 Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Campania+IT_Abruzzo+IT_Sardinia @ 4,784753
    25 Cyprus+Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Sardinia+IT_Sardinia @ 4,785062
    26 GR_Dodecanes+Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Sardinia+IT_Sardinia @ 4,785082
    27 Cyprus+GR_Kythera+IT_Sardinia+IT_Sardinia @ 4,785759
    28 Gr_Kalymnos+Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Lazio+IT_Sardinia @ 4,786706
    29 GR_Kythera+IT_Campania+IT_Lazio+IT_Sardinia @ 4,786891
    30 Gr_Kalymnos+Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Abruzzo+IT_Sardinia @ 4,787425
    31 Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Calabria+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia @ 4,788791
    32 GR_Kythera+IT_Campania+IT_Abruzzo+IT_Sardinia @ 4,789709
    33 GR_Kythera+IT_Calabria+IT_Sardinia+IT_Sardinia @ 4,789861
    34 Gr_Kalymnos+Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Calabria+IT_Sardinia @ 4,790481
    35 GR_Dodecanes+Gr_Kalymnos+Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Sardinia @ 4,794305
    36 Cyprus+Cyprus+IT_Sardinia+IT_Sardinia @ 4,794487
    37 GR_Kythera+GR_Kythera+IT_Abruzzo+IT_Sardinia @ 4,795735
    38 IT_Calabria+IT_Calabria+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia @ 4,797289
    39 GR_Dodecanes+IT_Campania+IT_Campania+IT_Sardinia @ 4,79877
    40 GR_Kythera+IT_Calabria+IT_Calabria+IT_Sardinia @ 4,798929
    543510244 iterations.

    2) Least-squares method:

    Least-squares method.


    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 IT_Lazio @ 19,4018
    2 IT_Tuscany @ 20,616302
    3 IT_Abruzzo @ 21,156405
    4 FR_Corsica @ 21,542647
    5 IT_Campania @ 22,15217
    6 Albania_South @ 22,40565
    7 IT_Marche @ 22,467514
    8 IT_Apulia @ 23,24806
    9 Sicily_Trapani @ 23,832789
    10 IT_Calabria @ 23,940173
    11 Albania_FYROM @ 24,12481
    12 Albania_North @ 24,164755
    13 IT_North @ 24,197524
    14 Sicily_Catania @ 24,464497
    15 GR_Kythera @ 24,558784
    16 Sicily_Ragusa @ 24,671749
    17 Gr_Kalymnos @ 24,721003
    18 Sicily_Palermo @ 25,071979
    19 Greek_Peloponnes @ 25,194446
    20 Sicily_Agrigento @ 25,200382
    337 iterations.


    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio @ 19,4018
    2 IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany @ 19,660071
    3 IT_Abruzzo+IT_Lazio @ 20,021717
    4 IT_Campania+IT_Tuscany @ 20,026295
    5 IT_Lazio+FR_Corsica @ 20,072112
    6 IT_Abruzzo+IT_Tuscany @ 20,117985
    7 IT_Lazio+Albania_South @ 20,281012
    8 IT_Campania+IT_Lazio @ 20,281326
    9 IT_Abruzzo+FR_Corsica @ 20,494688
    10 IT_Campania+FR_Corsica @ 20,594858
    11 IT_Lazio+IT_Marche @ 20,615736
    12 IT_Tuscany+IT_Tuscany @ 20,616302
    13 IT_Calabria+IT_Tuscany @ 20,71075
    14 Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Tuscany @ 20,749523
    15 IT_Tuscany+Albania_South @ 20,750756
    16 IT_Tuscany+FR_Corsica @ 20,770734
    17 IT_Apulia+IT_Tuscany @ 20,806292
    18 FR_Corsica+Albania_South @ 20,881172
    19 IT_Apulia+IT_Lazio @ 20,933217
    20 IT_Lazio+Albania_FYROM @ 20,965807
    56953 iterations.


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Tuscany @ 19,44019
    2 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Campania +25% IT_Tuscany @ 19,61427
    3 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Lazio +25% FR_Corsica @ 19,629512
    4 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Abruzzo +25% IT_Tuscany @ 19,641765
    5 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Abruzzo +25% IT_Lazio @ 19,643418
    6 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Tuscany +25% IT_Tuscany @ 19,660071
    7 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Lazio +25% Albania_South @ 19,669751
    8 50% IT_Tuscany +25% IT_Campania +25% IT_Lazio @ 19,703424
    9 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Campania +25% IT_Lazio @ 19,705849
    10 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Tuscany +25% Albania_South @ 19,765797
    11 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Tuscany +25% FR_Corsica @ 19,784342
    12 50% IT_Tuscany +25% IT_Abruzzo +25% IT_Lazio @ 19,820198
    13 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Abruzzo +25% FR_Corsica @ 19,822401
    14 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Campania +25% FR_Corsica @ 19,84433
    15 50% IT_Lazio +25% FR_Corsica +25% Albania_South @ 19,883361
    16 50% IT_Lazio +25% Gr_Kalymnos +25% IT_Tuscany @ 19,883893
    17 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Calabria +25% IT_Tuscany @ 19,910875
    18 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Marche @ 19,920316
    19 50% IT_Tuscany +25% Gr_Kalymnos +25% IT_Lazio @ 19,926941
    20 50% IT_Lazio +25% IT_Lazio +25% Albania_FYROM @ 19,952047
    18502090 iterations.


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio @ 19,4018
    2 IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany @ 19,44019
    3 IT_Campania+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany @ 19,61427
    4 IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+FR_Corsica @ 19,629512
    5 IT_Abruzzo+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany @ 19,641765
    6 IT_Abruzzo+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio @ 19,643418
    7 IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany+IT_Tuscany @ 19,660071
    8 IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+Albania_South @ 19,669751
    9 IT_Campania+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany+IT_Tuscany @ 19,703424
    10 IT_Campania+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio @ 19,705849
    11 IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany+Albania_South @ 19,765797
    12 IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany+FR_Corsica @ 19,784342
    13 IT_Abruzzo+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany+IT_Tuscany @ 19,820198
    14 IT_Abruzzo+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+FR_Corsica @ 19,822401
    15 IT_Campania+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+FR_Corsica @ 19,84433
    16 IT_Campania+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany+FR_Corsica @ 19,869771
    17 IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+FR_Corsica+Albania_South @ 19,883361
    18 Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany @ 19,883893
    19 IT_Calabria+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany @ 19,910875
    20 IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Marche @ 19,920316
    21 Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany+IT_Tuscany @ 19,926941
    22 IT_Abruzzo+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany+FR_Corsica @ 19,936748
    23 IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+Albania_FYROM @ 19,952047
    24 IT_Campania+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany+IT_Sardinia @ 19,967332
    25 IT_Campania+IT_Tuscany+IT_Tuscany+IT_Tuscany @ 19,970891
    26 IT_Campania+IT_Abruzzo+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany @ 19,977925
    27 IT_Abruzzo+IT_Abruzzo+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany @ 19,981194
    28 IT_Calabria+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany+IT_Tuscany @ 19,984789
    29 IT_Campania+IT_Campania+IT_Tuscany+IT_Sardinia @ 19,987182
    30 IT_Apulia+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany @ 19,99741
    31 IT_Campania+IT_Abruzzo+IT_Tuscany+IT_Sardinia @ 20,005796
    32 IT_Calabria+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio @ 20,015003
    33 Gr_Kalymnos+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio @ 20,019032
    34 IT_Abruzzo+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio+Albania_South @ 20,020145
    35 IT_Abruzzo+IT_Abruzzo+IT_Lazio+IT_Lazio @ 20,021717
    36 IT_Campania+IT_Campania+IT_Tuscany+IT_Tuscany @ 20,026295
    37 IT_Campania+IT_Abruzzo+IT_Tuscany+IT_Tuscany @ 20,026651
    38 IT_Campania+IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany+Albania_South @ 20,028103
    39 IT_Lazio+IT_Tuscany+IT_Tuscany+Albania_South @ 20,039476
    40 IT_Campania+IT_Tuscany+IT_Sardinia+Albania_South @ 20,042785
    540225922 iterations.

  18. #268
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    There are reasonable people with whom one can have a reasonable debate, and then there are "the others", people whose only interest is in pushing some noxious, race or ethnicity based agenda, who are best just ignored.

    As for the Eurogenes calculators, I don't know about Greeks but they're all horrible at predicting Italian ancestry. The best any have ever given me is around 5-6, Bergamo and TSI. That's what happens when you load your calculator to show increased East European for everybody, along with a lot of other problems. It's going to throw all the other calculations off.

    MDLP isn't much better in most cases, although one of them does get that I'm closest to the Piemonte/Emilia sample, but still only in the high 4's. Some others say I'm Greek, so totally wrong, given all my "western" ancestry, but most important, it shows there's absolutely no consistency between runs.

    The old and now outdated dodecad calculator is still the best for most southern Europeans, imo, giving me around a 2 for best fit.

    That's why I don't bother with gedmatch any more. Those calculators don't work for Italians, period. Oh, another example, the Eurogenes 36 ludicrously only gives me 22% Italian.

    So, no surprise for me that these are the fits that Dodecad gets for one sample:

    Dodecad K12b Oracle results:


    #PopulationPercent
    1 Atlantic_Med 40.33
    2 Caucasus 40
    3 Southwest_Asian 9.37
    4 North_European 8.38
    5 Gedrosia 1.82
    6 Northwest_African 0.1

    Single Population Sharing:

    #Population (source)Distance
    1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.77
    2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.83
    3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 12.29
    4 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.34
    5 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.72
    6 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 15.47
    7 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 15.81
    8 Greek (Dodecad) 16.06
    9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.16
    10 O_Italian (Dodecad) 17.76
    11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 18.17
    12 North_Italian (HGDP) 20.37
    13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 21.35
    14 Cypriots (Behar) 22.41
    15 Baleares (1000Genomes) 28.39
    16 Turkish (Dodecad) 28.44
    17 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 29.42
    18 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 29.63
    19 Murcia (1000Genomes) 30.01
    20 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 30.25

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    3 78.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.29
    4 78.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.5% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.43

    Considering how old these samples are, the goodness of fit is rather amazing.

    And these are admixture calculators based on modern populations, hardly the most sophisticated analysis.

    Maybe I'll have to reconsider...I did always like Odysseus at least, even if I could never stand Agamemnon and Menelaus. :)

    Was someone actually touting a fit of 24 as good?

    What oh what does Sikeliot think? Oh, maybe he's gone out to drown his sorrows.:)

  19. #269
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Angela let me see what you get with K36 Oracle.

    This one is not available on GEDmatch of course.

    the Eurogenes 36 ludicrously only gives me 22% Italian.
    You mean "Italian" genetic component, not actual Italian ancestry?

    Because nobody in Italy scores 100% of "Italian" out of 36 components.

    Actually around 20% is pretty normal for most of Italian regions:

    Distribution of K36 "Italian" component in modern populations


  20. #270
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    K36 gives you 22% "Italian" and K12b gives you... 0%. :)

    ===================

    Some ancient North Italians in K36:

    Remedello RISE489 (2908-2578 BC), GEDmatch kit T135721:

    Basque 9.34
    Iberian 28.02
    Italian 28.18
    West_Med 34.46

    Remedello RISE486 (2134-1773 BC), GEDmatch kit T319214:

    Arabian 11.50
    Basque 8.83
    East_Balkan 5.43
    Iberian 19.02
    Italian 22.71
    West_Med 32.51

    Some ancient Iberians in K36:

    http://i.imgur.com/6oDTFfD.png


  21. #271
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Messier 67 View Post
    Homer: "There is a land called Crete, in the midst of the wine-dark sea, a fair, rich land, begirt with water, and therein are many men, past counting, and ninety cities. They have not all the same speech, but their tongues are mixed. There dwell Achaeans, there great-hearted native Cretans, there Cydonians, and Dorians of waving plumes, and goodly Pelasgians."

    Where the Dorians came from: "the Pelasgians ... were once neighbors of the people now called Dorians, and at that time inhabited the country which now is called Thessalian." (Herodotus)

    J2 were predominately the Minoans so cross them off as Dorians and they did not come from the north. J1 did not come from the North either. Neither did E1b1b.

    Northern Greece is 16% I2a and 22.5% total I. It is 13% R1b. And 18% R1a. The homeland of the Dorians, according to Herodotus.

    Crete is 5-10% R1b-S28 and 5-10% R1b-ht35. 9% R1a. 7% I2a and 12% total I.

    There is a good chance the Dorians were I2a, with their homeland in the north.

    A good percentage of R1b-S28 were Celtic POWs turned Roman slaves and freed throughout the centuries. R1b-ht35 is anatolian and did not come from the north. Not many are saying R1a are the Dorians. That leaves I2a.
    Your theory has many holes in it and makes no sense.

    Many people make the same mistake of lumping all J2 together, you probably did it out of intent. There are many clades of them stemming from: J2a1, J2a2, J2b1, J2b2.

    Dorians were most likely R1b-L23 brother-clade with a minority of J2b2-L283 carriers.

    R1b-ht35 in Anatolia is of Northern, Indo-European/Yamnaya origin aka predominantly North European and partly West Asian. It was strongly based in the Pontic Steppe and spread across the non-Slavic Balkans + around the shores of Pontic Sea.

    I2a1b-"Din" is Slavic as the oldest sample of it has only been found in Medieval Poland.

  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There are reasonable people with whom one can have a reasonable debate, and then there are "the others", people whose only interest is in pushing some noxious, race or ethnicity based agenda, who are best just ignored.

    As for the Eurogenes calculators, I don't know about Greeks but they're all horrible at predicting Italian ancestry. The best any have ever given me is around 5-6, Bergamo and TSI. That's what happens when you load your calculator to show increased East European for everybody, along with a lot of other problems. It's going to throw all the other calculations off.

    MDLP isn't much better in most cases, although one of them does get that I'm closest to the Piemonte/Emilia sample, but still only in the high 4's. Some others say I'm Greek, so totally wrong, given all my "western" ancestry, but most important, it shows there's absolutely no consistency between runs.

    The old and now outdated dodecad calculator is still the best for most southern Europeans, imo, giving me around a 2 for best fit.

    That's why I don't bother with gedmatch any more. Those calculators don't work for Italians, period. Oh, another example, the Eurogenes 36 ludicrously only gives me 22% Italian.

    So, no surprise for me that these are the fits that Dodecad gets for one sample:

    Dodecad K12b Oracle results:


    #PopulationPercent
    1 Atlantic_Med 40.33
    2 Caucasus 40
    3 Southwest_Asian 9.37
    4 North_European 8.38
    5 Gedrosia 1.82
    6 Northwest_African 0.1

    Single Population Sharing:

    #Population (source)Distance
    1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.77
    2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.83
    3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 12.29
    4 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.34
    5 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.72
    6 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 15.47
    7 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 15.81
    8 Greek (Dodecad) 16.06
    9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.16
    10 O_Italian (Dodecad) 17.76
    11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 18.17
    12 North_Italian (HGDP) 20.37
    13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 21.35
    14 Cypriots (Behar) 22.41
    15 Baleares (1000Genomes) 28.39
    16 Turkish (Dodecad) 28.44
    17 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 29.42
    18 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 29.63
    19 Murcia (1000Genomes) 30.01
    20 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 30.25

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    3 78.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.29
    4 78.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.5% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.43

    Considering how old these samples are, the goodness of fit is rather amazing.

    And these are admixture calculators based on modern populations, hardly the most sophisticated analysis.

    Maybe I'll have to reconsider...I did always like Odysseus at least, even if I could never stand Agamemnon and Menelaus. :)

    Was someone actually touting a fit of 24 as good?

    What oh what does Sikeliot think? Oh, maybe he's gone out to drown his sorrows.:)
    One thought here, Homer documented the fall of Troy but not the fall of Mycenae that considering its size should have been more glorious .......and happened later.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  23. #273
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Can someone help an idiot out? I don't understand how (according to this chart) Thessalonikis are like Cypriots with just a small extra spread of red stuff (EHG or steppe or whatever pushes them north) and it looks like Cypriots and Thessalonkikis are closer to one of the Minoan groups (Lashi or whatever it's called). I wonder if that's true for other Greeks. I'll have to read it.
    But I'll admit that my interpretation could be far off and I don't understand what the chart is telling us.
    https://images.nature.com/full/natur...e23310-sf1.jpg
    Davef

    Makedonians setlled Cyprus for centuries,
    Cretans-Minoans had colonies at Makedonia (Skotina Bottiaeans etc)
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Crete_Armenoi could be ethnically Dorian.

    It postdates Dorian infiltration of Crete.
    all samples are dated before Dorian descent,
    Dorian descent is 911 BC +- method fault,

    When we say aMinoan we do NOT mean Cretan but we mean until 1200-1100 BC
    after 900 BC is Cretan, or Minoan style

    when we say Mycenean we mean until 900 BC,
    after that is peloponese or Greek Mycenean style

    Minoan and Mycenean is before sea peoples,


  25. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Davef

    Makedonians setlled Cyprus for centuries,
    Cretans-Minoans had colonies at Makedonia (Skotina Bottiaeans etc)
    Thanks for the help! I gave you an up vote!

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