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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #2976
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    A lot of folks want to claim some sort of affinity with the Ancient Greeks but I do think genetically Southern Italians and Eastern Aegean Greek Islanders are the closest. I'm a mainland Greek with deep roots in the Peloponnese but from my observations of various models (G25) I find to have a closer genetic link to Illyrians (usually the biggest component) and/or other Paleo-Balkanites than the heavier CHG, decreased Steppe ancient pops.
    If Iron age Greeks turn out log_2 like I think your close affinity with illyrians is going to be replaced by these samples. Also I believe that when we get ancient Macedonians and epirotans mainland Greeks are going to be really close genetically to them

  2. #2977
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill7 View Post
    If Iron age Greeks turn out log_2 like I think your close affinity with illyrians is going to be replaced by these samples. Also I believe that when we get ancient Macedonians and epirotans mainland Greeks are going to be really close genetically to them
    This. It's also interesting that on 23andMe these days I notice many Balkanites getting Peloponnesian as part of their Ancestry.

  3. #2978
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    This. It's also interesting that on 23andMe these days I notice many Balkanites getting Peloponnesian as part of their Ancestry.
    I think 23andme autosomal breakdown model is a bit skewed. Notice, i said model, they can improve that a lot though.

  4. #2979
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvatar View Post
    Also for the record i do believe there is substantial slavic admixture in greece. Something like 30% for most of the mainland from a Serbian like source would make sense.
    Seems like it, when using Sicilians versus Serbs for Peloponnese:
    Target: Greek_Peloponnese
    Distance: 1.6654% / 0.01665386
    67.6 Sicilian_East
    32.4 Serbian

  5. #2980
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    Target: Greek_Trabzon
    Distance: 1.5673% / 0.01567298
    83.8 Georgian_Laz
    16.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

  6. #2981
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Seems like it, when using Sicilians versus Serbs for Peloponnese:
    Target: Greek_Peloponnese
    Distance: 1.6654% / 0.01665386
    67.6 Sicilian_East
    32.4 Serbian
    But Peloponnesians as Serbs do carry native paleobalkan admixture which in this 2-way model can only be expressed by inflating the latter...
    It rises by almost 15 points if you choose Serbs instead of Poles/Ukrainians.

    It's even more evident in your national average which gets modelled as 52% Sicilian_east and 48% Serbian whereas the NE signal is reduced by almost 23! points when choosing Poles/Ukrainians.
    Do you believe that you really are almost half Serbian like ? Personally I don't think so ...

  7. #2982
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lacreme View Post
    But Peloponnesians as Serbs do carry native paleobalkan admixture which in this 2-way model can only be expressed by inflating the latter...
    It rises by almost 15 points if you choose Serbs instead of Poles/Ukrainians.

    It's even more evident in your national average which gets modelled as 52% Sicilian_east and 48% Serbian whereas the NE signal is reduced by almost 23! points when choosing Poles/Ukrainians.
    Do you believe that you really are almost half Serbian like ? Personally I don't think so ...
    Well I choosed Sicilians instead of Empuries for one reason.
    If you use Empuries it's roughly 50/50 for Serbs. Also I find it hard to believe that Slavs that reached Greece in the early stage were Serb-like. Even if they turn to be that way we need to make sure that they are not outliers before comming up with the conclusions.

    What do you think of using Croats as an admixture for Ballkanic-related ( Albanian, Thracian, Venetian etc), Germanic and Slavic admixture combined together for post-Classical Age Peloponnese versus Empuries?


    Target: Greek_Peloponnese
    Distance: 2.3217% / 0.02321709
    58.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    41.6 Croatian
    Last edited by ihype02; 07-09-21 at 17:14.

  8. #2983
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by lacreme View Post
    But Peloponnesians as Serbs do carry native paleobalkan admixture which in this 2-way model can only be expressed by inflating the latter...
    It rises by almost 15 points if you choose Serbs instead of Poles/Ukrainians.

    It's even more evident in your national average which gets modelled as 52% Sicilian_east and 48% Serbian whereas the NE signal is reduced by almost 23! points when choosing Poles/Ukrainians.
    Do you believe that you really are almost half Serbian like ? Personally I don't think so ...
    Beautiful things are happening, Greeks reducing the Slavic influence of Albanians as an argument in their continuity theory in mainland. For the record, I believe that Modern Greeks have continuity from the Ancient ones, but probably not in mainland.


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  9. #2984
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Seems like it, when using Sicilians versus Serbs for Peloponnese:
    Target: Greek_Peloponnese
    Distance: 1.6654% / 0.01665386
    67.6 Sicilian_East
    32.4 Serbian
    If modern Peloponnesians are a proxy for old Greek genes and have near zero ancient continuity, and Sicilians are a good representative of ancient Greek ancestry, they have quite a bit in common with Sicilians. The replacement populations are pretty “Greek-like,” if Sicilians are among the closest to ancient Greeks (using the few Mycenaean and Empuries samples).

  10. #2985
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    Now I even doubt E-V13 existed at all among Classical Age Peloponnesians. Let's wait and see.
    There is something strange with Peloponnesians being so northern shifted and close to Greek Macedonians when they have half of I2a and R1a that Greek Macedonians have.

  11. #2986
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Now I even doubt E-V13 existed at all among Classical Age Peloponnesians. Let's wait and see.
    There is something strange with Peloponnesians being so northern shifted and close to Greek Macedonians when they have half of I2a and R1a that Greek Macedonians have.
    It is absolutely for sure E-V13 did exist among classical age Peleponnesians, the question is just which subclades and frequency! Because Psenichevo, the main Thracian group, directly to the North, covering a portion of modern Greece, was packed with E-V13. And we know that the Greeks mixed with Thracians. Historical Greek people had Thracian fathers, Thracian soldiers were mentioned in various armies and cities, and they were common among the Greek slaves as well. This means there is practically no way V13 was absent from classical Greece, including the Peleponnese, but it could have been fairly low. That's possible, a very low percentage and that almost none of the old lineages did survive into modernity. E-V13 was definitely picked up and incorporated by Slavs at different stages, from the Proto-Slavic to the Balkan Slavic stage. So they picked up E-V13 constantry, from starting point to destination. This means that they too brought a lot of E-V13 to Greece, presumably.
    Its even possible that more of the classical era E-V13 survived in Anatolian and Cypriotic Greeks, as well as Southern Italians, than in modern Northern Greece. Because V13 is not V13 in this context. Its the subclades which really matter, since V13 was present since about 1.300-1.000 BC in Greece, but some lineages died out, others came in with different people. Just like R1b is not R1b for the Germanic vs. Celtic context, comparing e.g. U152 vs. U106. The same applies to some subclades of E-V13, but the problem is its timing is much shorter, and the original expansion involved all major lineages, so we really have to look for more recent subclades to know. In this case, early Greek and Thracian lineages in Greece should have no TMRCA with obvious Albanian, Vlach and Slavic lineages after 0 AD or better earlier. There are a lot which meet this requirement, but that's probably just because the sampling is insufficient. If it holds, there should be Greek lineages with no more recent TMRCA with other Balkan groups, but only Anatolian, Cypriotic and Southern Italian matches after 0 AD and preferably a last common ancestor even earlier. Ideally from the first expansion phase up to Hallstatt, so no later than 500 BC.

  12. #2987
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    It is absolutely for sure E-V13 did exist among classical age Peleponnesians, the question is just which subclades and frequency! Because Psenichevo, the main Thracian group, directly to the North, covering a portion of modern Greece, was packed with E-V13. And we know that the Greeks mixed with Thracians. Historical Greek people had Thracian fathers, Thracian soldiers were mentioned in various armies and cities, and they were common among the Greek slaves as well. This means there is practically no way V13 was absent from classical Greece, including the Peleponnese, but it could have been fairly low. That's possible, a very low percentage and that almost none of the old lineages did survive into modernity. E-V13 was definitely picked up and incorporated by Slavs at different stages, from the Proto-Slavic to the Balkan Slavic stage. So they picked up E-V13 constantry, from starting point to destination. This means that they too brought a lot of E-V13 to Greece, presumably.
    Its even possible that more of the classical era E-V13 survived in Anatolian and Cypriotic Greeks, as well as Southern Italians, than in modern Northern Greece. Because V13 is not V13 in this context. Its the subclades which really matter, since V13 was present since about 1.300-1.000 BC in Greece, but some lineages died out, others came in with different people. Just like R1b is not R1b for the Germanic vs. Celtic context, comparing e.g. U152 vs. U106. The same applies to some subclades of E-V13, but the problem is its timing is much shorter, and the original expansion involved all major lineages, so we really have to look for more recent subclades to know. In this case, early Greek and Thracian lineages in Greece should have no TMRCA with obvious Albanian, Vlach and Slavic lineages after 0 AD or better earlier. There are a lot which meet this requirement, but that's probably just because the sampling is insufficient. If it holds, there should be Greek lineages with no more recent TMRCA with other Balkan groups, but only Anatolian, Cypriotic and Southern Italian matches after 0 AD and preferably a last common ancestor even earlier. Ideally from the first expansion phase up to Hallstatt, so no later than 500 BC.
    There are some Asiatic haplogroups in Europe with negligible percentages <1%, given were are in the time of globalization those numbers might increase I would say this "X" clade came during the 21/22th century not the Middle Ages. :P
    I was being hyperbolic with my words. There was an Eastern African in Balkans.

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