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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #3001
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    Code:
    Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017,3.38,0,1.25,0,36.32,5.47,0,0,7.73,1.07,44.26,0.51
    Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,3.66,1.15,38.24,6.6,0.59,0.65,13.92,0,35.19,0
    Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017,1.55,1.33,2.36,0,39.11,8.61,2.19,0,7.76,0,34.35,2.74
    Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017,3.15,0,2.41,0,37.19,8.87,0,0,10.69,0,37.17,0.52
    NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019,0.47,0,4.06,0,36.68,5.45,0,0,12.64,0,40.71,0
    IMO, Empuries2, specifically I8208, despite being found in Iberia, is totally appropriate for Aegean_IA, because it matches the Mycenaeans. Furthermore, it also matches the two Greek_IA found in Campania:


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    Not using Levantine:

    Target: Italian_Veneto
    Distance: 1.8577% / 0.01857729
    51.0 ITA_Etruscan
    33.4 HRV_IA
    15.6 DEU_MA_Alemannic

    Using Levantine:

    Target: Italian_Veneto
    Distance: 1.2078% / 0.01207796
    30.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    25.2 DEU_MA_Alemannic
    15.6 HRV_IA
    14.6 ITA_Etruscan
    14.0 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic

    And the fit is not even that different 1.8 to 1.2. This proves that using multiply sources is usually inaccurate, therefore those sort of calculations should be used only for 2 populations in relation with chronological historical events.
    Like for example using 200CE-400CE "Croats" versus Poles (assuming they are an accurate proxy) as an ancestry source for 900CE Slavic Croats as a target is accurate but further than that it get murky.

  3. #3003
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    It reminds me of 4 way Oracles under GEDMatch. Great fits but results that don't make sense.

  4. #3004
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    Indeed, 14% Levant in Veneto should be enough to prove that this modeling with Levantine is erroneous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    It reminds me of 4 way Oracles under GEDMatch. Great fits but totally results that don't make sense.
    Good analogy, this is precisely what I mean.

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    Has anybody seen this before? Seems pretty relevant:

    https://www.wseas.org/multimedia/jou...605909-068.pdf

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    Has anybody seen this before? Seems pretty relevant:

    https://www.wseas.org/multimedia/jou...605909-068.pdf
    Seems pretty pseudo-scholarship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Seems pretty pseudo-scholarship.
    “Isotopic studies suggest that these could have been people hired all the way from the Catalan coast, from the Iberian peninsula, or from mainland Greece or even from the Black Sea coast,” says Mario Novak at the Institute for Anthropological Research in Croatia.


    https://www.newscientist.com/article...in-key-battle/


    What do you think about this? Excuse me for my ignorance but I don't think it is talking about Autosomal DNA. What was the difference between Mainland Greeks and a Sicilian Greeks? Many of Sicilian Greeks came from Mainland.

    I think it is on par with study saying South Italians were just Greek-like not influenced genetically by Greeks.

    Also hired people from the Black Sea and Spain? Seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    “Isotopic studies suggest that these could have been people hired all the way from the Catalan coast, from the Iberian peninsula, or from mainland Greece or even from the Black Sea coast,” says Mario Novak at the Institute for Anthropological Research in Croatia.
    https://www.newscientist.com/article...in-key-battle/
    What do you think about this? Excuse me for my ignorance but I don't think it is talking about Autosomal DNA. What was the difference between Mainland Greeks and a Sicilian Greeks? Many of Sicilian Greeks came from Mainland.
    I think it is on par with study saying South Italians were just Greek-like not influenced genetically by Greeks.
    Also hired people from the Black Sea and Spain? Seriously?
    Isotope analysis has nothing to do with any DNA. However isotope analysis will tell you whether somebody was local or not and DNA analysis would tell you their heritage. I am sure that Greeks as well other powers of the era used mercenaries. I am not a great believer in Herodotus historicity. I think of him as a story teller and a travelogue. I would not use him as my only source.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 21-10-21 at 06:22.

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    Totally plausible results. Historical sources tell us that my own Ligures went to fight in Greece, in Sicily on both sides, in Italy on Hannibal's side.

    Ancient armies, unlike the early armies of ancient Rome, contained lots of mercenaries from, indeed, across the Mediterraneana.


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  11. #3011
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    Something i'm curious about. Did Ionian Greeks bring Iron Age Anatolian admixture on mainland Greece?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idontknowwhatimdoing View Post
    Something i'm curious about. Did Ionian Greeks bring Iron Age Anatolian admixture on mainland Greece?
    Not that I know of. However Ionian islanders did bring Greek genetic heritage to the western shores of Asia Minor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Isotope analysis has nothing to do with any DNA. However isotope analysis will tell you whether somebody was local or not and DNA analysis would tell you their heritage. I am sure that Greeks as well other powers of the era used mercenaries. I am not a great believer in Herodotus historicity. I think of him as a story teller and a travelogue. I would not use him as my only source.
    It's not about Herodotus. It's that the geographical difference is very big. It would not suprise me if they hired some people from Italy or Greece but Spain and Black Sea is way too far away.
    Maybe they were Greeks from Spain and Black Sea. Greeks had colonies there.

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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Spain is not that far from Sicily if you are talking about the Sicilian wars.

  15. #3015
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    Greek and Cypriot admixture

    I removed the ones that have high overlap, removed Anatolia for Cypriots and southern Greece because it might be just over correcting. What do you think of this?
    1) Model for Cypriots, Crete and Southern Greece:
    with Aegean, Levant, Balkan_east, Illyria, Latium, Sardinia, South Semitic, Early Slav:
    Code:
    Target: Greek_Cypriot Distance: 1.0956% / 0.01095610
    60.0 Levant_BA
    40.0 Aegean_BA_IA
    Target: Greek_Crete Distance: 1.0963% / 0.01096350
    51.4 Aegean_BA_IA
    38.2 Levant_BA
    10.4 Early_Slav_EMA
    Target: Greek_Laconia Distance: 0.8220% / 0.00822018
    33.4 Aegean_BA_IA
    29.4 Levant_BA
    23.6 Early_Slav_EMA
    11.8 Illyria_MBA
    1.8 Latium_IA
    Target: Greek_Peloponnese Distance: 0.7043% / 0.00704278
    40.6 Aegean_BA_IA
    26.2 Early_Slav_EMA
    24.2 Levant_BA
    9.0 Illyria_MBA



    2) Model for Thessaly and Northern Greeks:
    with Aegean, Thracia, Balkan_East, Illyria,
    Latium, Early Slav:
    Code:
     
    Target: Greek_Thessaly Distance: 1.5587% / 0.01558661
    76.6 Aegean_BA_IA
    17.0 Early_Slav_EMA
    6.4 Thracia_IA
    Target: Greek_Macedonia Distance: 1.8699% / 0.01869922
    64.2 Aegean_BA_IA
    29.6 Early_Slav_EMA
    6.2 Thracia_IA
    Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia Distance: 1.7044% / 0.01704350
    59.0 Aegean_BA_IA
    30.4 Early_Slav_EMA
    10.6 Thracia_IA
    3) Model Without Levant/Illyrian/East_Balkan/ancient Italy for mainland Greeks:
    Code:
    Target: Greek_Thessaly Distance: 0.9638% / 0.00963832
    54.4 Aegean_BA_IA
    21.2 Anatolia_BA
    21.2 Early_Slav_EMA
    2.0 Thracia_IA
    1.2 Turkic_West_and_Ottoman
    Target: Greek_Laconia Distance: 1.6771% / 0.01677115
    37.8 Anatolia_BA
    33.8 Aegean_BA_IA
    28.4 Early_Slav_EMA
    Target: Greek_Peloponnese Distance: 1.0207% / 0.01020653
    36.4 Aegean_BA_IA
    33.4 Anatolia_BA
    28.0 Early_Slav_EMA
    2.2 Turkic_West_and_Ottoman
    Target: Greek_Macedonia Distance: 0.8531% / 0.00853082
    35.6 Early_Slav_EMA
    32.2 Anatolia_BA
    31.0 Aegean_BA_IA
    1.2 Turkic_West_and_Ottoman
    Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia Distance: 0.7424% / 0.00742435
    34.8 Aegean_BA_IA
    34.4 Early_Slav_EMA
    26.6 Anatolia_BA
    2.2 Thracia_IA
    2.0 Turkic_West_and_Ottoman
    Full source:
    Code:
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:West_Turkic:KAZ_Kipchak:DA179,0.067156,-0.041637,-0.012822,-0.005814,-0.018773,0.002789,0.001645,0.009,-0.0045,-0.011481,-0.01088,3e-04,0.004311,0.000963,0.000271,0.016706,0.012256,-0.007601,0.006159,0.000625,-0.000749,0.002844,0.001849,0.01458,-0.006706
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:Ottoman_1400ad:MA2195,0.072847,-0.144205,0.035449,-0.000969,-0.045855,-0.02008,0.009165,0.004154,-0.014112,-0.011299,-0.006008,-0.006594,-0.001189,-0.013349,0.004072,0.00053,0.005476,0.002914,-0.005405,0.007879,-0.012104,0.000495,-0.011339,-0.006386,-0.004191
    
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:KAZ_Karakhanid:DA204,0.068294,-0.155376,0.032055,0.014535,-0.05601,0,0.002585,0.003692,-0.010226,-0.015126,-0.018675,-0.002847,0.001189,-0.016928,0.009365,0.00358,-0.01695,0.000887,0.005028,0.001751,-0.018343,0.003215,-0.00456,-0.006627,-0.007185
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:KAZ_Karakhanid:DA205,0.05805,-0.199044,0.027907,0.002907,-0.041854,-0.01004,0.00705,0.005307,-0.011862,-0.007472,-0.010555,-0.001199,-0.000446,-0.007156,0.012758,0.007955,0.002086,0.001774,0.000377,0.006003,-0.015348,0.003833,-0.00419,-0.003735,-0.002515
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:KAZ_Karluk:DA222,0.064879,-0.158423,0.023004,0.000969,-0.05601,-0.00753,0.00658,0.014999,-0.01493,-0.010934,-0.018188,0.001649,0,-0.004266,0.0076,-0.000928,-0.006519,0.005448,0.01081,0.001501,-0.015473,-0.003586,-0.003328,-0.004579,0.005987
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:KAZ_Karluk:DA230,0.061464,-0.145221,0.011691,-0.002584,-0.037545,0.001673,0.00329,0.009461,-0.01718,-0.009476,-0.021922,-0.003297,0,-0.001101,0.013979,-0.006895,-0.020992,0.002914,0.003771,-0.005378,-0.004492,-0.000742,0.00037,0.000602,0.002155
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:KAZ_Kimak:DA87,0.080814,-0.140143,0.043746,0.027455,-0.050471,-0.011435,0.00376,0.000462,-0.020043,-0.018224,-0.007632,-0.003147,-0.006244,-0.002064,0.008822,0.007425,-0.019558,0.005448,-0.003142,-0.027013,-0.02533,-0.010387,-0.001479,-0.010363,0.001317
    
    Anatolia_BA:TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
    Anatolia_BA:TUR_Ovaoren_EBA,0.0990263,0.151991,-0.0452547,-0.0812883,-0.0043087,-0.022776,-0.0019583,-0.0081533,-0.0088627,0.027457,0.0073077,0.0044463,-0.0130327,-0.0065143,-0.0147933,-0.000442,0.0126037,0.003801,0.0043577,-0.0017507,0.0003327,0.0055233,-0.0028757,0.0011247,-0.0024747
    Anatolia_BA:TUR_Isparta_EBA,0.114582,0.1590993,-0.040226,-0.0802117,-0.004411,-0.024728,7.83e-05,-0.003846,-0.0115897,0.0329847,0.0068207,0.003497,-0.012686,-0.003257,-0.0225297,0.0032263,0.0214267,-0.0024493,0.0070393,-0.0007087,-0.0044507,-0.003215,0.000575,-0.003213,-0.0022353
    
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Mycenaean:Average,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Mycenaean:I9006,0.119514,0.160454,-0.006788,-0.068476,0.014464,-0.03514,-0.003055,-0.006923,-0.002863,0.050115,0.004384,0.015137,-0.009366,0.00289,-0.019815,-0.005304,0.024643,0.007601,0.020992,-0.000375,-0.007487,-0.012365,-0.010969,-0.000602,-0.001796
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Mycenaean:I9010,0.110408,0.160454,-0.015462,-0.071383,0.029544,-0.038487,-0.003525,0.004154,0.013499,0.056129,0.018025,0.017235,-0.00223,-0.00234,-0.023208,-0.005038,0.031553,0.003421,0.005908,-0.004002,-0.006613,0.003215,-0.016145,-0.007109,-0.003113
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Mycenaean:I9033,0.091058,0.150298,-0.004148,-0.050388,0.022773,-0.013387,0.007285,-0.006692,0.003068,0.041003,-0.003573,0.019333,-0.020218,0.005505,-0.006515,-0.026518,0.00678,-0.003167,0.012193,-0.008629,-0.002995,-0.006306,-0.000616,0.005904,0.006945
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Mycenaean:I9041,0.110408,0.15436,-0.006034,-0.068476,0.020004,-0.021475,-0.00282,0.000923,0.007976,0.042097,0.003248,0.016036,-0.019326,-0.008533,-0.016015,-0.002387,0.021122,0.006588,0.010182,-0.002876,-0.006364,0.016199,0.001356,0.006386,-0.00491
    
    Aegean_BA_IA:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
    Aegean_BA_IA:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208,0.1161,0.158423,-0.017348,-0.06783,0.026774,-0.032351,-0.00282,-0.001154,0.007158,0.04319,0.003573,0.015586,-0.017096,0.006468,-0.016965,-0.02559,-0.007693,-0.000253,0.00993,-0.017133,-0.003494,0.000866,0.005053,0.00241,-0.010538
    Aegean_BA_IA:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215,0.120652,0.158423,-0.000754,-0.066215,0.023697,-0.023427,0.00611,-0.009,0.002659,0.041914,0.002111,0.006894,-0.01665,0.000688,-0.020087,-0.005967,0.014864,0.001014,-0.000754,-0.008254,-0.013102,0.002226,-0.001725,0.011809,-0.006466
    
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Cycladic_EBA,0.1160995,0.1701015,-0.021119,-0.081073,0.018311,-0.035419,-0.0024675,-0.0050765,0.0076695,0.048657,0.00682,0.0138625,-0.020664,0.0059865,-0.0281615,-0.0046405,0.014342,0.002534,0.0099305,-0.011693,-0.009483,-0.0005565,-0.002095,0.0018675,-0.002395
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Helladic_EBA,0.112685,0.179749,-0.000754,-0.08721,0.02739,-0.032351,-0.003995,-0.005769,0.028224,0.06761,0.002111,0.010641,-0.020812,0.005643,-0.030944,-0.021347,0.009127,0.003927,0.00729,-0.014757,-0.007237,0.000742,-0.000986,0.007953,-0.005269
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Helladic_MBA,0.1206525,0.1482675,0.0226275,-0.011951,0.022312,-0.010319,-0.0043475,-0.0032305,-0.0011245,0.0132125,0.0017865,0.011315,-0.0136765,0.000963,-0.0094325,-0.0129275,-0.0063885,-0.0008235,0.0072275,-0.0086295,-0.0116045,0.0025965,0.008073,0.005362,-0.0020955
    Aegean_BA_IA:Helladic_Cycladic_Mix,0.116479,0.1660393,0.0002515,-0.060078,0.022671,-0.0260297,-0.0036033,-0.004692,0.0115897,0.0431598,0.0035725,0.0119395,-0.0183842,0.0041975,-0.022846,-0.0129717,0.0056935,0.0018792,0.0081493,-0.0116932,-0.0094415,0.0009273,0.001664,0.0050608,-0.0032532
    Aegean_BA_IA:Hel_Cyc_Min_EBA,0.1160995,0.1674355,-0.0041484,-0.0679108,0.0238508,-0.028377,-0.001645,-0.0041535,0.0141122,0.0463564,0.0052776,0.0101911,-0.0175789,0.0040771,-0.0255492,-0.0163915,0.0040094,0.0024229,0.0080918,-0.0113649,-0.0095456,0.002674,0.0002928,0.0026209,-0.0020209
    
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Minoan_EBA,0.114961,0.171624,-0.017348,-0.091409,0.02739,-0.035419,0.00423,-0.002538,0.02168,0.055946,0.010393,0.004946,-0.015163,0.003716,-0.033659,-0.026651,-0.001043,0.004054,0.007919,-0.01038,-0.009858,0.007914,-0.003821,-0.004699,0.001676
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.170609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
    
    Thracia_IA:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12,0.135449,0.138112,0.015462,-0.012274,0.020927,-0.008088,0.00235,-0.007384,-0.006545,0.034625,0.000487,0.008542,-0.008325,-0.008533,-0.014522,0.005171,0.025946,-0.000127,0.011439,0.005878,-0.019091,0.007666,0.004067,0.011929,-0.000239
    
    Balkan_East_IA:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
    
    Illyria_MBA:HRV_MBA:I4331,0.12862,0.151314,0.028284,-0.007429,0.038776,-0.006972,-0.00705,-0.006,0.003681,0.028064,0.006171,0.010341,-0.017542,-0.003578,-0.0076,0.006497,0.008084,-0.003041,0.006159,-0.011631,-0.005865,-0.001113,-0.00037,0.003856,-0.001197
    Illyria_MBA:HRV_MBA:I4332,0.120652,0.147252,0.034318,-0.012274,0.038469,0.002231,-0.00423,0.001154,0.009613,0.032074,-0.006008,0.01094,-0.012487,-0.014726,-0.005972,0.01074,0.02047,-0.00114,0.000754,-0.011005,-0.001248,0.008656,-0.00419,0.002048,-0.002395
    
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    Ancient_Sicilia_LBA:ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372,0.133173,0.174671,0.00792,-0.065892,0.049855,-0.026216,-0.006815,-0.004384,0.033951,0.063965,-0.003248,0.008542,-0.02438,-0.001514,-0.025244,-0.031822,-0.005607,0.005321,0.01081,-0.015257,-0.009982,-0.00136,-0.005669,-0.013737,0.002155
    Ancient_Sicilia_LBA:ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876,0.1161,0.165531,0.010559,-0.059432,0.0437,-0.022032,-0.00846,-0.003923,0.019839,0.056858,-0.00065,0.013788,-0.017393,0.003303,-0.018051,-0.016309,-0.00339,0.004687,0.006788,-0.001,-0.005366,0.003586,0.001602,-0.010845,0.006706
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    Berberes_MA:Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun005,-0.01935,0.125926,0.004148,-0.056848,0.049855,-0.029841,-0.034782,0.005307,0.066675,0.028247,0.00406,-0.006894,0.016204,-0.015276,0.019544,0.001856,0.017993,-0.01761,-0.034567,0.018384,-0.0141,-0.025596,0.020706,-0.006145,-0.011376
    
    Early_Slav_EMA:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.081458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
    
    Levant_BA:Levant_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790729,0.087644,0.147252,-0.067505,-0.097546,-0.017849,-0.041834,-0.003525,-0.009,0.008999,0.008018,0.021273,-0.007343,0.022002,0.007432,-0.011401,0.000928,-0.011604,-0.002027,0.004777,0.014132,0.011355,0.018548,-0.000123,-0.006145,0.005868
    Levant_BA:Levant_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790730,0.084229,0.146236,-0.056945,-0.091732,-0.008309,-0.043786,-0.00658,-0.000923,0.005522,0.005467,0.01088,-0.008243,0.014569,0.000275,-0.012079,0.016574,0.011735,0.003674,-0.001131,0.005628,0.001622,0.005688,-0.003328,0.008194,-0.002155
    Levant_BA:Levant_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790731,0.079676,0.153345,-0.057699,-0.100453,-0.003693,-0.041834,-0.00564,-0.006,0.017794,0.010387,0.007795,-0.017534,0.029137,0.000688,-0.008958,0.009679,0.000913,-0.006714,0.005405,-0.005628,0.001248,0.00507,0.006286,0.004097,0.000599
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    Levant_BA:Levant_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790733,0.079676,0.137096,-0.063733,-0.102714,-0.015695,-0.029284,0.00423,-0.007384,0.007567,0.011845,0.00341,-0.010491,0.020812,0.011698,-0.003122,0.004508,0.001304,0.001394,-0.002765,0.005127,0.005116,0.005812,-0.008751,0.000964,-0.002994
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    BedouinA_Arab_North_Modern,0.0285823,0.1335987,-0.047601,-0.0827598,-0.0138829,-0.0323513,-0.0107061,-0.0046408,0.0234522,-0.0016198,0.0081734,-0.0107237,0.0247439,0.0004741,0.0015682,0.0070567,-0.0027381,-0.0022382,-0.0034079,0.008254,0.0002081,0.002528,0.0001916,0.0017672,-0.0015967
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    South_Semitic_EBA:Arabian_Bedouins:Levant_JOR_EBA:I1706,0.071709,0.139128,-0.062225,-0.111113,-0.008001,-0.043507,-0.011751,-0.015692,0.041723,0.009476,0.013316,-0.019782,0.049653,-0.00523,0.000814,0.028639,-0.000522,-0.00038,-0.001131,0.020135,0.006364,0.012489,-0.00419,0.003133,-0.002036
    
    Ancient_WestAfrican:West_African_Cereal-Farmer:HGDP00915,-0.599848,0.064994,0.017348,0.008721,0.002462,0.008646,-0.042302,0.034152,-0.03027,0.02606,0.003897,0.004646,0.024975,-0.002477,0.014658,-0.016839,0.007302,0.004561,-0.00264,-0.003126,-0.002496,-0.005317,0.000863,-0.002651,-0.002874
    Ancient_WestAfrican:Benue_Cereal_Farmer,-0.627165,0.066009,0.021496,0.015181,0.002462,0.01255,-0.050292,0.05169,-0.046836,0.031891,0.005359,-0.003447,0.027651,0.00234,0.015472,-0.011005,0.006258,-0.002027,0.005028,0.001751,-0.001622,-0.000124,-0.000986,0.001205,0.002155
    
    Bantu_Peoples:Bantu_Cereal_Farmer,-0.613507,0.061947,0.023004,0.010659,0.008001,0.013108,0.009165,-0.000231,-0.019839,0.009476,0.011692,-0.000599,-0.008771,0.012661,-0.008279,0.023071,-0.010561,0.051436,-0.03243,-0.001,0,0.002473,0.00949,-0.011447,-0.003233
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    Bantu_Peoples:East_Bantu_Cereal_Farmer:I2298,-0.616921,0.066009,0.021119,0.011305,0.004001,0.013108,-0.00987,0.016153,-0.020248,0.002187,0.000812,0.007943,-0.014717,0.003165,-0.019272,0.005304,-0.014212,0.00266,-0.006034,0.006503,0.004118,0.003957,0.001849,0.005663,0.003233
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    Last edited by Idontknowwhatimdoing; 21-10-21 at 17:44.

  16. #3016
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    It's not about Herodotus. It's that the geographical difference is very big. It would not suprise me if they hired some people from Italy or Greece but Spain and Black Sea is way too far away.
    Maybe they were Greeks from Spain and Black Sea. Greeks had colonies there.
    If Greeks from Spain could make it to Sicily to fight why couldn't Spaniards? The trade route was long established.

    Sorry, that's no logical.

    The only actual way to know, of course, is for the scientists to analyze the dna and give us the autosomal and uniparental results.

  17. #3017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If Greeks from Spain could make it to Sicily to fight why couldn't Spaniards? The trade route was long established.

    Sorry, that's no logical.

    The only actual way to know, of course, is for the scientists to analyze the dna and give us the autosomal and uniparental results.
    I suppose yes but it's more likely for them to be Greeks than Native Iberians? No?
    I was completely unaware that they would hire Mercenaries from Spain for Sicilian wars. It was a suprise. Greek or non Greek.

  18. #3018
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    Angela look:

    "The team’s analysis revealed that some historical claims could be validated – there were two battles, about two thirds of the Himeran forces in the first conflict weren’t local while only a quarter in the second battle weren’t from there, and Greek soldiers from outside of the city did fight alongside local Himerans. But the contemporary accounts weren’t entirely accurate: the isotope evidence suggests that many of the non-local soldiers weren’t actually Greek, but came from across the Mediterranean."

    “Isotopic studies suggest that these could have been people hired all the way from the Catalan coast, from the Iberian peninsula, or from mainland Greece or even from the Black Sea coast,” says Mario Novak at the Institute for Anthropological Research in Croatia.


    All of those 3 regions had a Greek presence. They can be Iberians too.



    “So, this could have been either Greeks but also some Indigenous people that classical sources considered barbarians. Obviously, these ‘barbarians’ were much more incorporated into the everyday lives of the “proper” Greeks than previously thought,” he says.
    Again "could have been", I don't think they have Autosomal DNA.

    In particular, Herodotus suggests that in 480 BC, during the first Battle of Himera, local soldiers received aid from other Greek allies and successfully defeated the Carthaginians. But during a second battle in 409 BC, the local soldiers went unaided and the city of Himera fell to the Carthaginians.

    The researchers found that only about one-third of Himera's soldiers from the first battle were local to the area, while around three-fourths were locals in the second battle, corroborating the written claims that Himera was more aided by outsiders the first time than in the second battle. However, the evidence also shows that, contrary to written accounts, many outsiders were not Greek allies, but were instead mercenaries hired from beyond Greek territories.



  19. #3019
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    According to Wikipedia:

    Gelo and Theron had a well trained, battle tested army at their disposal. In addition to citizens, hired mercenaries from Greeks and Sicels augmented their forces. Gelon took out a loan from citizens to fund his war efforts, which indicates the seriousness of the situation. The Syracusan army at Himera is said to have numbered 50,000 foot and 5,000 horse – perhaps another exaggeration.[26] The size of the army of Theron is not known. The main hoplite force came from the citizens of the Sicilian Greek cities. They were augmented by mercenary hoplites hired from Sicily and Italy, and even mainland Greece. Some of the citizens also served as peltasts while the wealthier citizens formed the cavalry units. Sicels and Sikan soldiers also served in the force. Mercenaries provided archers, slingers and cavalry.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...ominate_Sicily

  20. #3020
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    Country: Cyprus



    1 members found this post helpful.
    The goal is to hit a distance of 0.9-1.1%, we don't want it below 0.9% because there might be over corrections since the calculator does not care if it makes sense but it just cares for getting the lowest distance. The acceptable distance usually for models like this is below 2% and around 1% are not too low and not too high so i think 0.9-1.1 is more balanced from what i observed.

    1) Reduce the populations to 2, if the distance is higher than 1.1% then the TARGET must be mixed between more populations so increase it by 1 population.

    2)If you get a distance below 0.9%
    then there might be over corrections so increase distance cooldown until you get 0.9-1.1% distance. If you still get below 0.9% then just keep increasing the distance cooldown until it gets the closest to 0.9-1.1%, if it's above 1.1% with distance cooldown then increase by 1 population

    3) If you got higher than 1.1% distance with 2 populations then you increased the populations by 1 and so you must repeat the steps above but with the increased populations, keep repeating the steps until you get a distance between 0.9-1.1%.

    3) If you keep getting above 1.1% and below 2% then reduce it to 5-6 populations if there are more and try adding 0.25x distance cooldown. If the distance changed only by 0.1% then it might have removed over corrections and worked.
    If it goes above 2% then the model is not good for you either because you are mixed or not a Greek or a Turk, excluding East Anatolian Turks since i didn't add Caucasian proxies.

    Target: Greek_Cypriot
    Distance: 1.0956% / 0.01095610 | R2P
    60.0 Levant_BA
    40.0 Aegean_BA_IA

    Target: Greek_Crete
    Distance: 1.0799% / 0.01079905 | R3P | ADC: 0.5x RC
    54.8 Aegean_BA_IA
    29.2 Levant_BA
    16.0 Anatolia_BA

    Target: Greek_Dodecanese
    Distance: 1.1191% / 0.01119087 | R3P | ADC: 0.5x RC
    38.8 Aegean_BA_IA
    35.4 Levant_North_BA
    25.8 Anatolia_BA

    Target: Greek_Laconia
    Distance: 1.0081% / 0.01008117 | R3P | ADC: 0.5x RC
    44.4 Aegean_BA_IA
    28.2 Levant_BA
    27.4 Early_Slav_EMA

    Target: Greek_Peloponnese
    Distance: 0.8024% / 0.00802394 | R3P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    53.8 Aegean_BA_IA
    24.0 Early_Slav_EMA
    22.2 Levant_BA

    Target: Greek_Thessaly
    Distance: 1.0050% / 0.01005012 | R3P
    53.2 Aegean_BA_IA
    23.8 Anatolia_BA
    23.0 Early_Slav_EMA

    Target: Greek_Macedonia
    Distance: 0.9139% / 0.00913891 | R3P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    50.0 Aegean_BA_IA
    29.0 Early_Slav_EMA
    21.0 Levant_North_BA

    Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
    Distance: 0.8742% / 0.00874231 | R3P | ADC: 0.5x RC
    45.8 Aegean_BA_IA
    35.6 Early_Slav_EMA
    18.6 Levant_North_BA

    Target: Greek_Izmir
    Distance: 1.0162% / 0.01016167 | R3P
    49.6 Anatolia_BA
    25.6 Aegean_BA_IA
    24.8 Early_Slav_EMA

    Target: Turkish_Northwest
    Distance: 0.9892% / 0.00989196 | R3P
    48.2 Anatolia_East_BA
    35.0 Turkic_West_and_Ottoman
    16.8 Early_Slav_EMA

    Code:
    Levant_North_BA:TUR_Alalakh_MLBA,0.0965915,0.1477878,-0.0603812,-0.0906553,-0.0162764,-0.0337457,0.0003786,-0.0057946,-0.0039201,0.0126552,0.0068112,-0.0044502,0.0079451,0.0040828,-0.0105598,0.0052299,-0.0008258,0.0020939,0.0050908,-0.00247,0.0018509,0.0040154,-0.0036426,-0.0030559,0.0006421
    
    Anatolia_East_BA:TUR_Arslantepe_EBA,0.1032945,0.1546142,-0.0594908,-0.089552,-0.0198495,-0.0290045,0.0017625,-0.010615,-0.0177422,0.012483,0.0054808,0.0017985,-0.005649,0.003888,-0.0106202,-0.0020882,0.0073667,0.0017735,0.0029852,0.0010945,-0.001435,0.004235,-0.0016332,-0.0043682,-0.000509
    
    Anatolia_BA:TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
    Anatolia_BA:TUR_Ovaoren_EBA,0.0990263,0.151991,-0.0452547,-0.0812883,-0.0043087,-0.022776,-0.0019583,-0.0081533,-0.0088627,0.027457,0.0073077,0.0044463,-0.0130327,-0.0065143,-0.0147933,-0.000442,0.0126037,0.003801,0.0043577,-0.0017507,0.0003327,0.0055233,-0.0028757,0.0011247,-0.0024747
    Anatolia_BA:TUR_Isparta_EBA,0.114582,0.1590993,-0.040226,-0.0802117,-0.004411,-0.024728,7.83e-05,-0.003846,-0.0115897,0.0329847,0.0068207,0.003497,-0.012686,-0.003257,-0.0225297,0.0032263,0.0214267,-0.0024493,0.0070393,-0.0007087,-0.0044507,-0.003215,0.000575,-0.003213,-0.0022353
    
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:West_Turkic:KAZ_Kipchak:DA179,0.067156,-0.041637,-0.012822,-0.005814,-0.018773,0.002789,0.001645,0.009,-0.0045,-0.011481,-0.01088,3e-04,0.004311,0.000963,0.000271,0.016706,0.012256,-0.007601,0.006159,0.000625,-0.000749,0.002844,0.001849,0.01458,-0.006706
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:Ottoman_1400ad:MA2195,0.072847,-0.144205,0.035449,-0.000969,-0.045855,-0.02008,0.009165,0.004154,-0.014112,-0.011299,-0.006008,-0.006594,-0.001189,-0.013349,0.004072,0.00053,0.005476,0.002914,-0.005405,0.007879,-0.012104,0.000495,-0.011339,-0.006386,-0.004191
    
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:KAZ_Karakhanid:DA204,0.068294,-0.155376,0.032055,0.014535,-0.05601,0,0.002585,0.003692,-0.010226,-0.015126,-0.018675,-0.002847,0.001189,-0.016928,0.009365,0.00358,-0.01695,0.000887,0.005028,0.001751,-0.018343,0.003215,-0.00456,-0.006627,-0.007185
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:KAZ_Karakhanid:DA205,0.05805,-0.199044,0.027907,0.002907,-0.041854,-0.01004,0.00705,0.005307,-0.011862,-0.007472,-0.010555,-0.001199,-0.000446,-0.007156,0.012758,0.007955,0.002086,0.001774,0.000377,0.006003,-0.015348,0.003833,-0.00419,-0.003735,-0.002515
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:KAZ_Karluk:DA222,0.064879,-0.158423,0.023004,0.000969,-0.05601,-0.00753,0.00658,0.014999,-0.01493,-0.010934,-0.018188,0.001649,0,-0.004266,0.0076,-0.000928,-0.006519,0.005448,0.01081,0.001501,-0.015473,-0.003586,-0.003328,-0.004579,0.005987
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:KAZ_Karluk:DA230,0.061464,-0.145221,0.011691,-0.002584,-0.037545,0.001673,0.00329,0.009461,-0.01718,-0.009476,-0.021922,-0.003297,0,-0.001101,0.013979,-0.006895,-0.020992,0.002914,0.003771,-0.005378,-0.004492,-0.000742,0.00037,0.000602,0.002155
    Turkic_West_and_Ottoman:KAZ_Kimak:DA87,0.080814,-0.140143,0.043746,0.027455,-0.050471,-0.011435,0.00376,0.000462,-0.020043,-0.018224,-0.007632,-0.003147,-0.006244,-0.002064,0.008822,0.007425,-0.019558,0.005448,-0.003142,-0.027013,-0.02533,-0.010387,-0.001479,-0.010363,0.001317
    
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Mycenaean:Average,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Mycenaean:I9006,0.119514,0.160454,-0.006788,-0.068476,0.014464,-0.03514,-0.003055,-0.006923,-0.002863,0.050115,0.004384,0.015137,-0.009366,0.00289,-0.019815,-0.005304,0.024643,0.007601,0.020992,-0.000375,-0.007487,-0.012365,-0.010969,-0.000602,-0.001796
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Mycenaean:I9010,0.110408,0.160454,-0.015462,-0.071383,0.029544,-0.038487,-0.003525,0.004154,0.013499,0.056129,0.018025,0.017235,-0.00223,-0.00234,-0.023208,-0.005038,0.031553,0.003421,0.005908,-0.004002,-0.006613,0.003215,-0.016145,-0.007109,-0.003113
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Mycenaean:I9033,0.091058,0.150298,-0.004148,-0.050388,0.022773,-0.013387,0.007285,-0.006692,0.003068,0.041003,-0.003573,0.019333,-0.020218,0.005505,-0.006515,-0.026518,0.00678,-0.003167,0.012193,-0.008629,-0.002995,-0.006306,-0.000616,0.005904,0.006945
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Mycenaean:I9041,0.110408,0.15436,-0.006034,-0.068476,0.020004,-0.021475,-0.00282,0.000923,0.007976,0.042097,0.003248,0.016036,-0.019326,-0.008533,-0.016015,-0.002387,0.021122,0.006588,0.010182,-0.002876,-0.006364,0.016199,0.001356,0.006386,-0.00491
    
    Aegean_BA_IA:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
    Aegean_BA_IA:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208,0.1161,0.158423,-0.017348,-0.06783,0.026774,-0.032351,-0.00282,-0.001154,0.007158,0.04319,0.003573,0.015586,-0.017096,0.006468,-0.016965,-0.02559,-0.007693,-0.000253,0.00993,-0.017133,-0.003494,0.000866,0.005053,0.00241,-0.010538
    Aegean_BA_IA:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215,0.120652,0.158423,-0.000754,-0.066215,0.023697,-0.023427,0.00611,-0.009,0.002659,0.041914,0.002111,0.006894,-0.01665,0.000688,-0.020087,-0.005967,0.014864,0.001014,-0.000754,-0.008254,-0.013102,0.002226,-0.001725,0.011809,-0.006466
    
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Cycladic_EBA,0.1160995,0.1701015,-0.021119,-0.081073,0.018311,-0.035419,-0.0024675,-0.0050765,0.0076695,0.048657,0.00682,0.0138625,-0.020664,0.0059865,-0.0281615,-0.0046405,0.014342,0.002534,0.0099305,-0.011693,-0.009483,-0.0005565,-0.002095,0.0018675,-0.002395
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Helladic_EBA,0.112685,0.179749,-0.000754,-0.08721,0.02739,-0.032351,-0.003995,-0.005769,0.028224,0.06761,0.002111,0.010641,-0.020812,0.005643,-0.030944,-0.021347,0.009127,0.003927,0.00729,-0.014757,-0.007237,0.000742,-0.000986,0.007953,-0.005269
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Helladic_MBA,0.1206525,0.1482675,0.0226275,-0.011951,0.022312,-0.010319,-0.0043475,-0.0032305,-0.0011245,0.0132125,0.0017865,0.011315,-0.0136765,0.000963,-0.0094325,-0.0129275,-0.0063885,-0.0008235,0.0072275,-0.0086295,-0.0116045,0.0025965,0.008073,0.005362,-0.0020955
    Aegean_BA_IA:Helladic_Cycladic_Mix,0.116479,0.1660393,0.0002515,-0.060078,0.022671,-0.0260297,-0.0036033,-0.004692,0.0115897,0.0431598,0.0035725,0.0119395,-0.0183842,0.0041975,-0.022846,-0.0129717,0.0056935,0.0018792,0.0081493,-0.0116932,-0.0094415,0.0009273,0.001664,0.0050608,-0.0032532
    Aegean_BA_IA:Hel_Cyc_Min_EBA,0.1160995,0.1674355,-0.0041484,-0.0679108,0.0238508,-0.028377,-0.001645,-0.0041535,0.0141122,0.0463564,0.0052776,0.0101911,-0.0175789,0.0040771,-0.0255492,-0.0163915,0.0040094,0.0024229,0.0080918,-0.0113649,-0.0095456,0.002674,0.0002928,0.0026209,-0.0020209
    
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Minoan_EBA,0.114961,0.171624,-0.017348,-0.091409,0.02739,-0.035419,0.00423,-0.002538,0.02168,0.055946,0.010393,0.004946,-0.015163,0.003716,-0.033659,-0.026651,-0.001043,0.004054,0.007919,-0.01038,-0.009858,0.007914,-0.003821,-0.004699,0.001676
    Aegean_BA_IA:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.170609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
    
    Thracia_IA:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12,0.135449,0.138112,0.015462,-0.012274,0.020927,-0.008088,0.00235,-0.007384,-0.006545,0.034625,0.000487,0.008542,-0.008325,-0.008533,-0.014522,0.005171,0.025946,-0.000127,0.011439,0.005878,-0.019091,0.007666,0.004067,0.011929,-0.000239
    
    Balkan_East_IA:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
    
    Illyria_MBA:HRV_MBA:I4331,0.12862,0.151314,0.028284,-0.007429,0.038776,-0.006972,-0.00705,-0.006,0.003681,0.028064,0.006171,0.010341,-0.017542,-0.003578,-0.0076,0.006497,0.008084,-0.003041,0.006159,-0.011631,-0.005865,-0.001113,-0.00037,0.003856,-0.001197
    Illyria_MBA:HRV_MBA:I4332,0.120652,0.147252,0.034318,-0.012274,0.038469,0.002231,-0.00423,0.001154,0.009613,0.032074,-0.006008,0.01094,-0.012487,-0.014726,-0.005972,0.01074,0.02047,-0.00114,0.000754,-0.011005,-0.001248,0.008656,-0.00419,0.002048,-0.002395
    
    Latium_IA:Boville_Ernica_IA:RMPR1021,0.126344,0.152329,0.034318,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.01079,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
    Latium_IA:Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
    Etruscan_IA:Etruscan:RMPR473,0.127482,0.158423,0.035072,-0.020672,0.046778,-0.005299,0.00094,-0.000923,0.024952,0.03991,-0.002598,0.013188,-0.018434,-0.006606,-0.00665,-0.018828,-0.011865,0.003294,0.01081,0.00025,-0.001747,-0.000495,-0.000986,-0.000361,-0.003592
    Etruscan_IA:ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b,0.126344,0.149283,0.034318,-0.007752,0.036622,-0.005299,0.003995,-0.004615,0.014726,0.028793,-0.002111,0.015286,-0.01115,-0.002064,-0.00285,0.003182,0.006258,0.007221,0.012318,-0.002626,-0.003369,0.008037,0.000863,-0.000482,-0.001796
    
    Ancient_Sicilia_LBA:ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372,0.133173,0.174671,0.00792,-0.065892,0.049855,-0.026216,-0.006815,-0.004384,0.033951,0.063965,-0.003248,0.008542,-0.02438,-0.001514,-0.025244,-0.031822,-0.005607,0.005321,0.01081,-0.015257,-0.009982,-0.00136,-0.005669,-0.013737,0.002155
    Ancient_Sicilia_LBA:ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876,0.1161,0.165531,0.010559,-0.059432,0.0437,-0.022032,-0.00846,-0.003923,0.019839,0.056858,-0.00065,0.013788,-0.017393,0.003303,-0.018051,-0.016309,-0.00339,0.004687,0.006788,-0.001,-0.005366,0.003586,0.001602,-0.010845,0.006706
    Ancient_Sicilia_LBA:ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878,0.119514,0.168578,0.015462,-0.063631,0.049855,-0.029562,-0.00799,-0.005538,0.026997,0.063054,-0.001786,0.01094,-0.019475,-0.011836,-0.019951,0.00053,0.011343,-0.003041,-0.00088,-0.003752,-0.009733,-0.003091,-0.006655,-0.014219,-0.005389
    
    Sardinia_EBA_IA:Sardinia:ORC002,0.119514,0.17264,0.035826,-0.05168,0.074168,-0.026495,-0.00047,-0.001154,0.046631,0.089296,-0.00406,0.020382,-0.038949,-0.013625,-0.016829,-0.007425,0.007823,-0.000127,-0.001885,-0.013632,-0.003619,0.005935,-0.010106,-0.034342,-0.000958
    Sardinia_EBA_IA:ITA_Sardinia_EBA,0.1253572,0.1778531,0.0436706,-0.0511417,0.0806305,-0.0266619,-0.0064391,0.0002615,0.058712,0.095431,-0.0010067,0.0160058,-0.0319918,-0.012175,-0.0131377,-0.0052154,0.0081533,0.0006503,0.0050027,-0.0076203,0.0047499,0.0039815,-0.0115524,-0.0290724,0.0011975
    
    Early_Slav_EMA:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.081458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
    
    Levant_BA:Levant_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790729,0.087644,0.147252,-0.067505,-0.097546,-0.017849,-0.041834,-0.003525,-0.009,0.008999,0.008018,0.021273,-0.007343,0.022002,0.007432,-0.011401,0.000928,-0.011604,-0.002027,0.004777,0.014132,0.011355,0.018548,-0.000123,-0.006145,0.005868
    Levant_BA:Levant_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790730,0.084229,0.146236,-0.056945,-0.091732,-0.008309,-0.043786,-0.00658,-0.000923,0.005522,0.005467,0.01088,-0.008243,0.014569,0.000275,-0.012079,0.016574,0.011735,0.003674,-0.001131,0.005628,0.001622,0.005688,-0.003328,0.008194,-0.002155
    Levant_BA:Levant_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790731,0.079676,0.153345,-0.057699,-0.100453,-0.003693,-0.041834,-0.00564,-0.006,0.017794,0.010387,0.007795,-0.017534,0.029137,0.000688,-0.008958,0.009679,0.000913,-0.006714,0.005405,-0.005628,0.001248,0.00507,0.006286,0.004097,0.000599
    Levant_BA:Levant_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790732,0.075123,0.150298,-0.060716,-0.097223,-0.007078,-0.037929,-0.012456,-0.009692,0.017385,0.015126,0.009094,-0.005245,0.021407,0.007432,-0.002307,0.000928,-0.003129,-0.00228,0.001257,0.002001,0.001996,0.002597,-0.00037,0.000843,-0.003832
    Levant_BA:Levant_Sidon_MBA:ERS1790733,0.079676,0.137096,-0.063733,-0.102714,-0.015695,-0.029284,0.00423,-0.007384,0.007567,0.011845,0.00341,-0.010491,0.020812,0.011698,-0.003122,0.004508,0.001304,0.001394,-0.002765,0.005127,0.005116,0.005812,-0.008751,0.000964,-0.002994
    Levant_BA:ISR:Ashkelon_IA2:ASH8,0.080814,0.145221,-0.066373,-0.101422,-0.021542,-0.029562,-0.003055,-0.012923,0.003272,0.002005,0.012179,-0.008393,0.019475,0.003303,0.001086,0.010872,-0.00339,0.001394,0.007668,-0.003627,0.006988,0.001731,0,0.000241,0.003473
    Levant_BA:Levant_Yehud_IBA:I7003,0.087644,0.160454,-0.054682,-0.102391,-0.006155,-0.041555,-0.004935,-0.002769,0.026588,0.013668,0.019487,-0.008243,0.016204,0.030139,-0.007329,-0.007823,-0.026077,0.003421,0.006662,0.005753,-0.00861,0.013973,-0.006039,0.003374,-0.002515
    Levant_BA:Levant_Megiddo_MLBA,0.0861261,0.1455592,-0.0646134,-0.1002072,-0.014596,-0.0394563,-0.0045434,-0.0097249,0.0131382,0.0089382,0.0103465,-0.0088707,0.0219027,0.0020119,-0.007316,0.005411,-0.0024898,0.004217,0.0036812,0.0073607,0.0047534,0.0040982,-0.0049357,-0.0025361,-0.0014427
    Levant_BA:Levant_Megiddo_IA,0.084229,0.150298,-0.060716,-0.091409,-0.014464,-0.044623,-0.00517,-0.005077,0.011658,0.006014,0.012179,-0.007343,0.019177,0.006193,-0.002307,0.002254,-0.026207,0.005828,0.00729,-0.005753,0.001622,-0.002226,-0.006162,-0.000843,-0.005987
    Levant_BA:Levant_Megiddo_IBA,0.078538,0.152329,-0.058077,-0.112405,0.001846,-0.044344,-0.01034,-0.009,0.030883,0.00164,0.012829,-0.013038,0.026016,-0.001651,-0.008686,0.013259,-0.005085,0.008868,-0.000126,0.001751,-0.000624,0.006059,-0.008134,0.000241,-0.004431
    
    BedouinA_Arab_North_Modern,0.0285823,0.1335987,-0.047601,-0.0827598,-0.0138829,-0.0323513,-0.0107061,-0.0046408,0.0234522,-0.0016198,0.0081734,-0.0107237,0.0247439,0.0004741,0.0015682,0.0070567,-0.0027381,-0.0022382,-0.0034079,0.008254,0.0002081,0.002528,0.0001916,0.0017672,-0.0015967
    
    BedouinB_Arab_South_Modern,0.041925,0.1439232,-0.0598156,-0.1169808,-0.0093179,-0.0480622,-0.0141008,-0.0087432,0.05154,-0.0052038,0.0158689,-0.0305729,0.0629496,0.004855,0.0043959,0.0288529,-0.0199706,0.00366,-0.0040153,0.029,0.0109668,0.0152299,-0.0039166,0.0071025,-0.0083092
    
    South_Semitic_EBA:Arabian_Bedouins:Levant_JOR_EBA:I1706,0.071709,0.139128,-0.062225,-0.111113,-0.008001,-0.043507,-0.011751,-0.015692,0.041723,0.009476,0.013316,-0.019782,0.049653,-0.00523,0.000814,0.028639,-0.000522,-0.00038,-0.001131,0.020135,0.006364,0.012489,-0.00419,0.003133,-0.002036
    
    Berberes_MA:Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun005,-0.01935,0.125926,0.004148,-0.056848,0.049855,-0.029841,-0.034782,0.005307,0.066675,0.028247,0.00406,-0.006894,0.016204,-0.015276,0.019544,0.001856,0.017993,-0.01761,-0.034567,0.018384,-0.0141,-0.025596,0.020706,-0.006145,-0.011376
    Last edited by Idontknowwhatimdoing; 27-10-21 at 14:12.

  21. #3021
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
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    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Now I even doubt E-V13 existed at all among Classical Age Peloponnesians. Let's wait and see.
    There is something strange with Peloponnesians being so northern shifted and close to Greek Macedonians when they have half of I2a and R1a that Greek Macedonians have.

    Maybe the Dorian blood,
    what Makedonians claim.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  22. #3022
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Maybe the Dorian blood,
    what Makedonians claim.
    Macedonia didnt exist at 1200bc - at least not as an ethnic group. Dorian movements seem to line up with that of the illyrians who also crossed the sea to italy

  23. #3023
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    I have changed my mind about E-V13 in Ancient Peloponnese, I think it existed but it was not very mainstream compared to J2a.

  24. #3024
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Seems pretty pseudo-scholarship.
    We are living a beautiful and rich time where come to life a lot of "scientific" papers finding cognates everywhere.
    Maybe I'm a bit conservative. I know some surprising ties can emerge between words seeming very far one from another but...
    these lists of "cognates" don't convince me for the most. It is not thefirst time helas.

  25. #3025
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.


    Catacomb Culture + Minoan is a good fit for the Mycenaeans (and me), but not for the northern Greece Logkas samples from Clemente et al. 2021.

    Dodecad K12b

    Source:

    Code:
    Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019,25.71,4.68,0,0.61,7.93,55.69,0,0,0,0,2.4,2.97
    Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019,29.97,2.83,0,0.37,3.73,54.49,1.01,0,0,0,5.99,1.62
    Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019,26.39,2.57,0,0,2.96,54.74,2.09,0,0,0,10.33,0.92
    Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019,29.4,1.88,0,0,2.25,59.81,0.86,0,0,0,5.54,0.24
    Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019,28.23,2.3,0,0,0.76,59.25,1.7,0,0,0,6.52,1.23
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0.62,0.55,37.53,0,0,0,15.52,0,45.7,0.09
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017,1.16,0,2.96,0,37.9,0.23,0,0,13.01,0,44.59,0.15
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017,0,0.05,2.92,0.4,36.38,0,0,0,13.48,0,46.7,0.07
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017,0.58,0,4.33,0,39.44,0,0,0,12.45,0,43.19,0
    Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0,0,40.33,0,0,1.41,8.2,0,50.06,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017,6.38,2.36,3.13,0,48.96,0,0,0,14.8,1.02,23.34,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,4.55,0,44.82,0,0,0,13.21,0,37.43,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017,1.38,0,0.19,0,41.77,0,0,0.28,17.61,0,38.77,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017,5.16,0,0,0,36.32,0,0,0,19.19,0,39.01,0.33
    Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
    Target:

    Code:
    Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017,3.38,0,1.25,0,36.32,5.47,0,0,7.73,1.07,44.26,0.51
    Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,3.66,1.15,38.24,6.6,0.59,0.65,13.92,0,35.19,0
    Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017,1.55,1.33,2.36,0,39.11,8.61,2.19,0,7.76,0,34.35,2.74
    Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017,3.15,0,2.41,0,37.19,8.87,0,0,10.69,0,37.17,0.52
    Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017,5.02,0,5.95,0,40.19,14.38,0,0,10.66,0,23.79,0
    Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021,2.02,0.51,1.68,0.46,32.46,23.57,0,0.25,7.97,0,30.09,1
    Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021,7.05,1.16,0.26,0,31.18,28.21,0,0.13,4.25,0.92,24.07,2.77

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