Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Mycenean had 4% to 12 % steppe this is well known did they mean extra steppe?

Perhaps extra steppe in the upcoming Mycenaean samples, which are supposed to be in the Crete Armenoi-Mycenaean cline.
 
He should toss the G25 Ancient Averages in the garbage too, because they are shallow, meaningless, and false constructs.

So he is going to toss the whole G25 in the garbage too.


Mycenean had 4% to 12 % steppe this is well known did they mean extra steppe?

Many other samples are going to be analyzed and therefore we will have a clearer picture.
 
Is he throwing the G25 for the ancients out or is it that it's something he "should" do.
 
The 19 samples from Lazaridis et al 2017 using the haplotype sharing version of the Ancient Rome Test (Dodecad K7b):

Distance to:I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
8.21697024C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R44_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
8.56108054C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R41_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
9.26009179C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R73_ANAS
9.38234512C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R45_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
9.72201625C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R81_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis


Distance to:I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
5.52719640C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R45_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
7.45358303C3_Imperial_North_African:R80_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
11.17411741C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R44_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
11.98882396C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R81_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
12.41342016C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R41_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis


Distance to:I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
2.46420373C2_Neolithic:R18_Ripabianca_di_Monterado
6.42559725C2_Neolithic:R3_Grotta_Continenza
6.49773037C2_Neolithic:R9_Grotta_Continenza
6.79702141C2_Neolithic:R8_Grotta_Continenza
8.07598291C2_Neolithic:R10_Grotta_Continenza


Distance to:I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
7.49957999C2_Neolithic:R18_Ripabianca_di_Monterado
8.01460542C2_Neolithic:R9_Grotta_Continenza
8.86164206C2_Neolithic:R3_Grotta_Continenza
9.59023983C2_Neolithic:R10_Grotta_Continenza
10.82345139C2_Neolithic:R8_Grotta_Continenza


Distance to:I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
8.19051280C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R45_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
8.47232554C3_Imperial_North_African:R80_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
11.91073885C3_Imperial_North_African:R132_Marcellino_&_Pietro
11.92794618C2_Neolithic:R18_Ripabianca_di_Monterado
14.17824742C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R44_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis


Distance to:I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
1.32416011C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1287_Cancelleria
1.88425051C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1285_Cancelleria
3.30650873C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria
3.49626944C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
5.09095276C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R111_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


Distance to:I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
4.80837810C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
5.36721529C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R107_Crypta_Balbi
5.37528604C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
5.37823391C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_Tribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
6.15416932C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna


Distance to:I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
4.66981798C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R107_Crypta_Balbi
5.26573831C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
5.74124551C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
6.13335960C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
6.66366266C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna


Distance to:I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
6.15228413C2_Neolithic:R18_Ripabianca_di_Monterado
9.73947637C3_Imperial_North_African:R80_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
9.79227246C2_Neolithic:R8_Grotta_Continenza
11.00876015C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R45_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
11.10393624C2_Neolithic:R3_Grotta_Continenza
 
LdhsLZl.png


Armenoi_Crete I9123, and Mycenaeans I9033, and I9042 plot closest to the C6_Mediterranean cluster.
 
the serbs are not slavs!!!!??? This says it all. They are definitely slavs and have absorbed balkanite populations, while the romanians are the opposite.....balkanites that have absorbed slavic population.

As for the dorians, we still have to identify a northern dorian grave. There is still a huge debate and no general agreement where they came from.
For me dorians are typically hallstatt.


Sent from my iphone using eupedia forum
i do not have much knowledge about serbs but i do believe they are not all slavs at all, very simple just look at their dna, i have posted before about their dna into pelasgian pre ancient greeks< would their dna be ev13 post, now maybe you mean they might be slavinez much more then what their real dna be, if we consider r1a is highly highly slavic then i can say serbs are around 25% slavic with dna, however they are slavinized much more i guess from their language or slavic culture, it is very interesting actually how slavs had so much impact on many balkan countries where actually their dna is far of being slavic to anything above 20%
 
Might have to do with "Greek-like" being used as an umbrella term.

If one was to use the same line of reasoning for most nations in the Balkans and elsewhere they would get crucified.
An example, if Angela was to say Saxons, Vikings, Normans were English-like... that would certainly raise some eyebrows. Its like sayings eggs are cake-like.

For the record, I am very close autosomally to a lot of Greek populations, more specifically using the latest calculators (our best tool atm), I am closer to Macedonia Greeks than to North Albanians. Would I have an issue with someone describing me as "Greek-like"? I would not mind. Do I think it is faulty logic to group eggs and milk in one category, and call this category "egg-like" just because they both are ingredients in cake? Most definitively.

I am sure the last analogy will fly above some peoples heads...

Maybe these images will be useful.

G25 Distances: Me.
rtlmSR3.png
VERY INTERESTING INDEED, I DIDNT KNOW EVEN J2b IS CLOSEST TO GREEKS AND ALBANIANS, E-V13 IS EVEN CLOSER TO GREEKS AND ALBANIANS SO TO R1B, OR MAYBE THIS J2B WELL IS FROM YOU ONLY AND DONT WANT TO GENERALIZE, HOWEVER AS FAR AS CLOSEST DNA MATCHES WITH MOST OR ALMOST ALL HAPLOGROUPS, I CAN SAY THAT GREEKS AND ALBANIANS SHARE THE CLOSEST DNA MATCH IN BETWEEN THEM WITH ANY OTHER CLOSE RELATIVES OR NEIGHBOURS

WE ALL KNOW PEOPLE MOVED SO MUCH THAT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO PROVE WITH ECACT TIMEFRAMES< ONLY MORE DNA SAMPLES WILL PROVE THAT, FACT IS GREEKS AND ALBANIANS HAVE SO MUCH ALMOST IDENTICAL DNA THAT THEY CAN BE LABELED AS BROTHERS LOL, I GUESS SOME WOULD NOT LIKE IT BUT AS I SEE IT, DNA TALKS AND TIME WILL CONFIRM THIS ALSO :rolleyes:
 
Throughout the last 4000 years who would be considered Greek in your opinion? Minoans? Myceneans? Dorians? One tribe or the other? Macedonians or Spartans? Or they were all the same? If you go out of your way to say all the abovementioned peoples were the same, then you might want to change the definition of what "Greek" means. We see cultural, philologic, religious, philosophical, architectural and genetic changes and shifts across time and space (geography).

NO NEED TO SAY ANYTHING ELSE AT ALL :grin:
 
i do not have much knowledge about serbs but i do believe they are not all slavs at all, very simple just look at their dna, i have posted before about their dna into pelasgian pre ancient greeks< would their dna be ev13 post, now maybe you mean they might be slavinez much more then what their real dna be, if we consider r1a is highly highly slavic then i can say serbs are around 25% slavic with dna, however they are slavinized much more i guess from their language or slavic culture, it is very interesting actually how slavs had so much impact on many balkan countries where actually their dna is far of being slavic to anything above 20%

I think if we talk culturally, Serbs are as South Slavic as it gets. If we define Slavic genetically, then yeah Y-DNA wise and Autosomally the input is not 100% Slavic.

I also wonder how in history some minority peoples were able to assimilate much larger populations.
Go no further than Anatolia, relatively speaking Turkic Y-DNA is negligible in Turkey and autosomally the pull is not what you would expect from a large invading population. Yet they managed to change the proto-IE language of Anatolia to a Turkic one. This case is even more peculiar and extreme than Slavic language domination in Balkan Slavs, since the input population of genetics and culture was even smaller, relatively speaking.
 
VERY INTERESTING INDEED, I DIDNT KNOW EVEN J2b IS CLOSEST TO GREEKS AND ALBANIANS, E-V13 IS EVEN CLOSER TO GREEKS AND ALBANIANS SO TO R1B, OR MAYBE THIS J2B WELL IS FROM YOU ONLY AND DONT WANT TO GENERALIZE, HOWEVER AS FAR AS CLOSEST DNA MATCHES WITH MOST OR ALMOST ALL HAPLOGROUPS, I CAN SAY THAT GREEKS AND ALBANIANS SHARE THE CLOSEST DNA MATCH IN BETWEEN THEM WITH ANY OTHER CLOSE RELATIVES OR NEIGHBOURS

WE ALL KNOW PEOPLE MOVED SO MUCH THAT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO PROVE WITH ECACT TIMEFRAMES< ONLY MORE DNA SAMPLES WILL PROVE THAT, FACT IS GREEKS AND ALBANIANS HAVE SO MUCH ALMOST IDENTICAL DNA THAT THEY CAN BE LABELED AS BROTHERS LOL, I GUESS SOME WOULD NOT LIKE IT BUT AS I SEE IT, DNA TALKS AND TIME WILL CONFIRM THIS ALSO :rolleyes:

Y-DNA wise I think my haplo is not really represented in Greece. And based on the 4kya Mokrin sample and 3.7kya Coratia MBA sample it probably came from the North.
Autosomally however I am not an outlier among Albanians. In fact many Greek members from Anthrogenica plot closer to Albanins than fellow Greeks. I as well as some other Albanian members on calculators plot closer to Thessaly and Central Macedonia Greeks than Albania. This might be due to overlap, or faulty models, or both.

Scaled:
0.02639508 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02798197 Albanian
0.03231981 Swiss_Italian
0.03358316 Moldavian
0.03551570 Greek_Thessaly
0.03693863 Bulgarian
0.03703262 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03756595 Italian_Tuscany
0.03872656 Italian_Piedmont
0.03908284 Gagauz

Unscaled:
0.01598550 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.01717197 Greek_Peloponnese
0.01855310 Greek_Izmir
0.01900119 Albanian
0.01967526 Moldavian
0.02016515 Montenegrin
0.02066099 Romanian
0.02068590 Bulgarian
0.02195740 Swiss_Italian
0.02196469 Macedonian


Target: AC_scaled
Distance: 2.3967% / 0.02396666
94.0 Southern_Europe
4.8 Western_Europe
1.2 East_Asia



Distance to: AC_scaled
0.02639508 Southern_Europe:Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03693863 Southern_Europe:Bulgarian
0.04552827 Southern_Europe:Italian_Bergamo
0.05876807 Southern_Europe:Sicilian_East
0.05878750 Southern_Europe:Spanish_Andalucia
0.05970204 Southern_Europe
tongue.gif
ortuguese
0.06274470 Western_Europe:French_Auvergne
0.06323644 Southern_Europe:Spanish_Valencia
0.07517540 Western_Europe:Belgian
0.07594046 Eastern_Europe:Hungarian
0.07832863 Southern_Europe:Spanish_Asturias
0.08317272 Western_Europe:German
0.09745185 Western_Europe:English
0.10319285 Western_Europe:Irish
0.10608261 Middle_East:Turkish_Central
0.10749825 Eastern_Europe
tongue.gif
olish
0.10768508 Eastern_Europe:Ukrainian
0.10842489 Northern_Europe:Swedish
0.11104422 Northern_Europe:Icelandic
0.11694972 Middle_East:Lebanese_Christian
0.12299287 Eastern_Europe:Russian_Smolensk
0.12685249 Middle_East:Assyrian
0.13069549 Eastern_Europe:Lithuanian_PA
0.16141992 Middle_East:Iranian_Mazandarani
0.17084764 South_Asia
tongue.gif
arsi_Pakistan

Courtesy of Dosas from Anthrogenica: He mislabeled my sample as Hawk, another Albanian member.
screencapture-genoplot-com-pca-1596177654867.png


dosas-greek-cluster-new3.jpg


Some PCAs:

main-qimg-5a9999c74ffb08f75e2fd8cdd8ad5efe


KnQnE4i.png


You can clearly see some overlap between Albanians, Tuscans and Greeks.
 
I think if we talk culturally, Serbs are as South Slavic as it gets. If we define Slavic genetically, then yeah Y-DNA wise and Autosomally the input is not 100% Slavic.

I also wonder how in history some minority peoples were able to assimilate much larger populations.
Go no further than Anatolia, relatively speaking Turkic Y-DNA is negligible in Turkey and autosomally the pull is not what you would expect from a large invading population. Yet they managed to change the proto-IE language of Anatolia to a Turkic one. This case is even more peculiar and extreme than Slavic language domination in Balkan Slavs, since the input population of genetics and culture was even smaller, relatively speaking.

INDEED CULTURALLY, SO ACTUALLY SERBS R1A 16% ONLY? IT WOULD BE LIKE AROUND 16% OF SLAVS CAME TO THOSE REGIONS AND ASSIMIALTED WHOLE THAT REGION INCLUDING THE LANGUAGE, IT WOULD BE INTERESTED TO KNOW WHAT THOSE REGIONS SPOKE BEFORE THE ADOPTION OF SLAVIC LANGUAGE, AND STUDIES SHOWED ALSO THAT SLAVS ARE THE LATEST INHABITANTS COMING TO THE SOUTH BALKANS, IT MUST HAVE BEEN SOME HUGE FORCE OR ARMY THAT WAS ABLE TO DO THIS IF THIS IS THE TRUE CASE.

ONE THING I CAN SPECULATE THAT SERBS ARE SLAVIC BY DNA ONLY 16%, SO IT WOULD REALLY BE IRONICAL IF THEY CALL THEMSELF FULLY SLAVIC :shocked:

AS PER TURKIC PEOPLE YES, THE BIG EMPIRE THAT THEY HAD MUST HAVE HAD QUITE A BIG IMPACT, LOOKS LIKE THE BIGGER FORCES HAD THEIR INPACT IN THE BOTH CASES WHERE THE BIG FISH EATS A SMALL ONE, ALTHOUGH IN THE COLONIZED REGIONS PER HEAD NUMBERS THEY WERE STILL A MONORITY :petrified:
 
I also wonder how in history some minority peoples were able to assimilate much larger populations.
Go no further than Anatolia, relatively speaking Turkic Y-DNA is negligible in Turkey and autosomally the pull is not what you would expect from a large invading population. Yet they managed to change the proto-IE language of Anatolia to a Turkic one.
There is a noticeable influence the medieval Turkic migrations left upon much of the Turkish population. We did touch upon that four months back. Look at the following posts for example.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page83?p=603225&viewfull=1#post603225
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page83?p=603231&viewfull=1#post603231
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page83?p=603276&viewfull=1#post603276
Also, i would like to emphasize that Anatolians didn't speak PIE, but rather IE languages that were part of an early (the first) branch that diverged from PIE. Nonetheless, turkification of Anatolia didn't essentially begin until after the Battle of Manzikert (1071), meaning that prior of its turkification Anatolia had already lost its Anatolian IE languages in favor of hellenization that had began from the Iron Age and had culminated in the Hellenistic era.
 
Y-DNA wise I think my haplo is not really represented in Greece. And based on the 4kya Mokrin sample and 3.7kya Coratia MBA sample it probably came from the North.
Autosomally however I am not an outlier among Albanians. In fact many Greek members from Anthrogenica plot closer to Albanins than fellow Greeks. I as well as some other Albanian members on calculators plot closer to Thessaly and Central Macedonia Greeks than Albania. This might be due to overlap, or faulty models, or both.

Scaled:
0.02639508 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02798197 Albanian
0.03231981 Swiss_Italian
0.03358316 Moldavian
0.03551570 Greek_Thessaly
0.03693863 Bulgarian
0.03703262 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03756595 Italian_Tuscany
0.03872656 Italian_Piedmont
0.03908284 Gagauz

Unscaled:
0.01598550 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.01717197 Greek_Peloponnese
0.01855310 Greek_Izmir
0.01900119 Albanian
0.01967526 Moldavian
0.02016515 Montenegrin
0.02066099 Romanian
0.02068590 Bulgarian
0.02195740 Swiss_Italian
0.02196469 Macedonian


Target: AC_scaled
Distance: 2.3967% / 0.02396666
94.0 Southern_Europe
4.8 Western_Europe
1.2 East_Asia



Distance to: AC_scaled
0.02639508 Southern_Europe:Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03693863 Southern_Europe:Bulgarian
0.04552827 Southern_Europe:Italian_Bergamo
0.05876807 Southern_Europe:Sicilian_East
0.05878750 Southern_Europe:Spanish_Andalucia
0.05970204 Southern_Europe
tongue.gif
ortuguese
0.06274470 Western_Europe:French_Auvergne
0.06323644 Southern_Europe:Spanish_Valencia
0.07517540 Western_Europe:Belgian
0.07594046 Eastern_Europe:Hungarian
0.07832863 Southern_Europe:Spanish_Asturias
0.08317272 Western_Europe:German
0.09745185 Western_Europe:English
0.10319285 Western_Europe:Irish
0.10608261 Middle_East:Turkish_Central
0.10749825 Eastern_Europe
tongue.gif
olish
0.10768508 Eastern_Europe:Ukrainian
0.10842489 Northern_Europe:Swedish
0.11104422 Northern_Europe:Icelandic
0.11694972 Middle_East:Lebanese_Christian
0.12299287 Eastern_Europe:Russian_Smolensk
0.12685249 Middle_East:Assyrian
0.13069549 Eastern_Europe:Lithuanian_PA
0.16141992 Middle_East:Iranian_Mazandarani
0.17084764 South_Asia
tongue.gif
arsi_Pakistan

Courtesy of Dosas from Anthrogenica: He mislabeled my sample as Hawk, another Albanian member.
screencapture-genoplot-com-pca-1596177654867.png


dosas-greek-cluster-new3.jpg


Some PCAs:

main-qimg-5a9999c74ffb08f75e2fd8cdd8ad5efe


KnQnE4i.png


You can clearly see some overlap between Albanians, Tuscans and Greeks.

These Modern samples are no longer valid even according to Davidski.

Also, Anthrogenica is filled with dishonest people.
 
INDEED CULTURALLY, SO ACTUALLY SERBS R1A 16% ONLY? IT WOULD BE LIKE AROUND 16% OF SLAVS CAME TO THOSE REGIONS AND ASSIMIALTED WHOLE THAT REGION INCLUDING THE LANGUAGE, IT WOULD BE INTERESTED TO KNOW WHAT THOSE REGIONS SPOKE BEFORE THE ADOPTION OF SLAVIC LANGUAGE, AND STUDIES SHOWED ALSO THAT SLAVS ARE THE LATEST INHABITANTS COMING TO THE SOUTH BALKANS, IT MUST HAVE BEEN SOME HUGE FORCE OR ARMY THAT WAS ABLE TO DO THIS IF THIS IS THE TRUE CASE.

ONE THING I CAN SPECULATE THAT SERBS ARE SLAVIC BY DNA ONLY 16%, SO IT WOULD REALLY BE IRONICAL IF THEY CALL THEMSELF FULLY SLAVIC :shocked:

AS PER TURKIC PEOPLE YES, THE BIG EMPIRE THAT THEY HAD MUST HAVE HAD QUITE A BIG IMPACT, LOOKS LIKE THE BIGGER FORCES HAD THEIR INPACT IN THE BOTH CASES WHERE THE BIG FISH EATS A SMALL ONE, ALTHOUGH IN THE COLONIZED REGIONS PER HEAD NUMBERS THEY WERE STILL A MONORITY :petrified:

Please reframe from typing in all caps.
 
There is a noticeable influence the medieval Turkic migrations left upon much of the Turkish population. We did touch upon that four months back. Look at the following posts for example.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page83?p=603225&viewfull=1#post603225
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page83?p=603231&viewfull=1#post603231
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page83?p=603276&viewfull=1#post603276
Also, i would like to emphasize that Anatolians didn't speak PIE, but rather IE languages that were part of an early (the first) branch that diverged from PIE. Nonetheless, turkification of Anatolia didn't essentially begin until after the Battle of Manzikert (1071), meaning that prior of its turkification Anatolia had already lost its Anatolian IE languages in favor of hellenization that had began from the Iron Age and had culminated in the Hellenistic era.

Thank you for posting the links as I was about to make a post regarding what you already touched on.
However, I would argue that "According to the study, "the contributions ranging between 13%–58% must be considered with a caution because they harbor uncertainties about the state of pre-nomadic invasion and further local movements." A 2006 study concluded that the Central Asian contribution to Anatolia for Y-DNA is 13%, mtDNA 22%, alu insertion (autosomal) 15%, autosomal 22%, with respect to Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Uyghur, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan."
That is a minrity of the population 13%-22% that was able to change the IE language of Anatolia, whatever it was, to Turkic.

@noUseForAname

Actually I2-Dinaric is also Slavic, apart from R1a... that is why I said that the case of Anatolia is more extreme where the main Y-DNA of central Asia such as C,Q, and O are almost nonexistent in Turkey <3%... But when you account that the Turkic nomads might have had K1, R1a, R1B ~13% makes sense. Yet it is impressive how such a small percent of the population 13-22% could have imposed their language on the majority of the natives...
 
Also, stop discussing Albanian genetics, this is about Mycenaeans and Minoans.

Maybe you missed the G25 distances to the Minoan and Mycenaean sample I posted?
Or the fact that among the PCA's I posted Minoan and Mycenaeans apear as clusters juxtaposed to modern population culsters?

CSAN1AH.png

wdxz9BI.png


KnQnE4i.png

screencapture-genoplot-com-pca-1596177654867.png


If my distance to Minoan and Mycenean is "relatively" close why would I be excluded from the conversation?
I do not get this sort of exclusivity some people have. Its somehow OK for posters to discuss how Mycenaeans relate to Greek genetics, but God forbid if Albanian genetics are discussed in the same context.
 
Thank you for posting the links as I was about to make a post regarding what you already touched on.
However, I would argue that "According to the study, "the contributions ranging between 13%–58% must be considered with a caution because they harbor uncertainties about the state of pre-nomadic invasion and further local movements." A 2006 study concluded that the Central Asian contribution to Anatolia for Y-DNA is 13%, mtDNA 22%, alu insertion (autosomal) 15%, autosomal 22%, with respect to Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Uyghur, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan."
That is a minrity of the population 13%-22% that was able to change the IE language of Anatolia, whatever it was, to Turkic.
Yes, considerable influence or not is subjective with these numbers, that's why i wrote noticeable. Furthermore, the same is true for Greeks (and Albanians) who continue to have mostly pre-IE autosomal ancestry.
 
Also, stop discussing Albanian genetics, this is about Mycenaeans and Minoans.

However if we are talking about Greek genetics and relation with Mycenaeans and Minoans then we cannot exclude Albanian genetics also because they have the closest match rather identical with all the other close neighbors, I would also not exclude Bulgarian nor North Macedonian genetics.

Havent Lazaridis concluded in his study that the Mycenaeans genetically are closest to the current location of Greece Albania North Macedonia etc?
if so then why not talk about also Albanian North Macedonian and Bulgarian genetics?
 
However if we are talking about Greek genetics and relation with Mycenaeans and Minoans then we cannot exclude Albanian genetics also because they have the closest match rather identical with all the other close neighbors, I would also not exclude Bulgarian nor North Macedonian genetics.

Havent Lazaridis concluded in his study that the Mycenaeans genetically are closest to the current location of Greece Albania North Macedonia etc?
if so then why not talk about also Albanian North Macedonian and Bulgarian genetics?

Not really sure about Lazaridis but I would not be surprised. (The 3 links I followed were all paywalled, don't have the patience to find the paper right now)
However based on the data I have seen from "amateur" calculators (from the first pages of this thread) I think South-West Italians were the top matches to the Mycenaeans. So I would be surprised if he did not mention them in the same breath.

PS: Credit to Jovialis for pointing out Eurogenes discontinued modern G25 due to sampling issues. However, as far as the Albanian population the G25 vahaduo calculators are extremely consistent with (my estimate) most calculators on Admixture Studio (the sad part is most of them don't even have Albanian as a reference, but the ones that do are consistent/similar). My guess is that this is due to Albanians having among the highest if not the highest IBD (identity by descent?) in Europe. This means that sampling errors as far as Albanian samples go are minimal. Another fun fact from an old study (think its 2011) Italians share as much IBD with Albanians as with fellow Italians.


Found it.
"Analysis of autosomal DNA, which analyses all genetic components has revealed that few rigid genetic discontinuities exist in European populations, apart from certain outliers such as Saami, Sardinians, Basques, Finns and Kosovar Albanians. They found that Albanians, on the one hand, have a high amount of identity by descent sharing, suggesting that Albanian-speakers derived from a relatively small population that expanded recently and rapidly in the last 1,500 years. On the other hand, they are not wholly isolated or endogamous because Greek and Macedonian samples shared much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. At the same time the sampled Italians shared nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other.[156]"

Ralph, Peter; Coop, Graham (2013). "The Geography of Recent Genetic Ancestry across Europe". PLOS Biology. 11 (5). e1001555. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555. ISSN 1545-7885. PMC 3646727. PMID 23667324.
 

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