Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Crete_Armenoi in Eurogenes K13:

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#Primary Population (source)Secondary Population (source)Distance
151.1%Sardinian+48.9%Ukrainian_Lviv@14.39
256.4%Sardinian+43.6%Russian_Smolensk@14.57
354.5%Sardinian+45.5%Polish@14.7
456.7%Sardinian+43.3%Estonian_Polish@14.8
557.3%Sardinian+42.7%Belorussian@14.81
654.3%Croatian+45.7%Sardinian@14.85
760%Sardinian+40%East_Finnish@15
860%Sardinian+40%Lithuanian@15.01
956.2%Moldavian+43.8%Sardinian@15.04
1056.6%Sardinian+43.4%Ukrainian_Belgorod@15.11

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Sardinian +50% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 15.480942

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% East_German +25% Moroccan +25% Sardinian @ 14.180481

Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Lithuanian + Moroccan + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 12.942441
2 Lithuanian + Moroccan + Sardinian + Spanish_Galicia @ 12.974084
3 French_Basque + Lithuanian + Sardinian + Saudi @ 12.988867
4 Moroccan + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 13.115956
5 Lithuanian + Moroccan + Sardinian + Spanish_Cantabria @ 13.121005
6 Moroccan + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian + Spanish_Galicia @ 13.215809
7 Estonian_Polish + Moroccan + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 13.227383
8 Erzya + Moroccan + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 13.291509
9 Lithuanian + Moroccan + Sardinian + Spanish_Extremadura @ 13.297136
10 Estonian_Polish + Moroccan + Sardinian + Spanish_Galicia @ 13.321469
 
Crete_Armenoi could be ethnically Dorian.

It postdates Dorian infiltration of Crete.
 
Interesting. I doubt any modern european group is half and half Sardinian-like and Slavic-like.

Ed: oh right, it's not a good sample.
 
Sakattack said:
Crete_Armenoi is a low quality sample
Click to expand...

It actually has 17547 SNPs utilized by GEDmatch template so it is not so bad.

I have seen even much lower quality samples whose results still make sense.

=====================

It does postdate Dorian invasions.
 
Crete_Armenoi is relatively close to modern Greeks (K36):

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
GR_Central Greek_Peloponnes Albania_Montenegro
24.04430 26.74130 26.88111
Greek_Macedonia Kosovo Askhenazi
26.97979 27.12096 27.20055
Albania_North Ashkenazi_Eastern_Euro
27.25853 27.35450

K36 admixtures:

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 5.52
Central_African -
Central_Euro 9.19
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan -
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 10.35
East_Med 27.46
Eastern_Euro -
Fennoscandian -
French 7.47
Iberian 14.18
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 7.85
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African 1.82
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 4.29
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 11.88
 
WK6QnI2.png


The so called "Dorian Invasion" (doubtful if it occured at all) was around 1200. In Crete, even a little later. Here Lazaridis is talking about 1300-1400.

So you are only 100-200 years close :p Good effort!

The quality is not the worst, but is by far the worst among the samples, which I don't see you commenting at... There are GEDmatch kits for them too, in case you missed it!
 
Based on my analysis (see above), Crete_Armenoi is close to modern mainland Greeks.

This result is consistent with what their PCA shows. So why do you doubt my analysis?
 
Modeling as a mix of modern populations:

Crete_Armenoi

Population percent

Druze 37.15

IT_Sardinia 23.65

Spain_La-Rioja 16.10
Spain_Valencia 0.10

France_SW 4.05

PL_Sudovia 13.80
PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia 1.10
PL_Mazovia 0.25

Russian_Bryansk 3.80
 
Tomenable said:
Based on my analysis (see above), Crete_Armenoi is close to modern mainland Greeks.

This result is consistent with what their PCA shows. So why do you doubt my analysis?
Click to expand...

Even though its kinda close (24 distance its not that close, but OK), I do not judge according my preferences. Id love to see Minoans, Myceneaeans and Classics indistinguishable from the Greeks, you know!

On the other hand, I can smell agendas and biased opinions: from the 4 samples available at GEDmatch now, you had cherry picked the one that fits you better (even if it is the worst in terms of quality) you mentioned only this on your first post and you dealed only with it: the "Slavic-like" (as you think) ancient Greek individual (according to your analysis which does not include all the other calcs you used, because as you know the results from one to another are not even close ...).

On the top of that, you came with that laughable conclusion that this may be Dorian, even though the Dorians were not even close to Crete by then... and you probably know it.


Go figure...
 
Sakattack said:
The quality is not the worst, but is by far the worst among the samples, which I don't see you commenting at... There are GEDmatch kits for them too, in case you missed it!
Click to expand...

Mycenaean I9041 is apparently more similar to modern Italians than Greeks (K36):

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
IT_Lazio IT_Tuscany IT_Abruzzo FR_Corsica IT_Campania
19.40262 20.61775 21.15594 21.54431 22.15129
Albania_South IT_Marche IT_Apulia
22.40601 22.47039 23.24806

I9041

Population percent

IT_Lazio 58.85
IT_Tuscany 20.55
IT_Campania 10.30
IT_Sardinia 7.90
Albania_South 1.20
IT_Abruzzo 0.90
Gr_Kalymnos 0.15
FR_Corsica 0.15
 
Tomenable said:
Mycenaean I9041 is apparently more similar to modern Italians than Greeks (K36):
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
IT_Lazio IT_Tuscany IT_Abruzzo FR_Corsica IT_Campania
19.40262 20.61775 21.15594 21.54431 22.15129
Albania_South IT_Marche IT_Apulia
22.40601 22.47039 23.24806
I9041
Population percent
IT_Lazio 58.85
IT_Tuscany 20.55
IT_Campania 10.30
IT_Sardinia 7.90
Albania_South 1.20
IT_Abruzzo 0.90
Gr_Kalymnos 0.15
FR_Corsica 0.15
Click to expand...
Can you do em all? I mean, if you can (I don't want to be bossy).
 
Sakattack said:
Crete_Armenoi is a low quality sample of a female that does not posdate the Dorian arrive.
Click to expand...

Did I or did I not state that the usual suspects would ignore this?

"We acknowledge the possibility that there was geographical structure in the Bronze Age Cretan population (the Armenoi sample comes from northwestern Crete; Fig. 1a), or that population change had occurred between the time of the samples from Moni Odigitria and Lasithi and the time of thisindividual, however, the lack of high quality data does not allow us to test these hypotheses further."

If Nick Patterson signs onto that, then that's the way it is.

Of course, that won't stop some modelers from trying to spin stories from it.


As to this sample being half-Sardinian and half-Ukrainian...

Davef: Interesting. I doubt any modern european group is half and half Sardinian-like and Slavic-like.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's particularly interesting because there were no Slavs then.:rolleyes:

@Tomenable,
I'm so glad you ran a sample which was so bad that the Reich Lab said no conclusions could be drawn from it through a Eurogenes calculator which is absolutely horrible at predicting Italian ancestry. :useless:
 
@Angela, which one is supposedly horrible at predicting Italian ancestry?

Please PM me your K36 results and we will see how well I can predict it.

Yeah, it's particularly interesting because there were no Slavs then.
Click to expand...

But there were already Slavic-like genes (though it is possible that ethnic-specific drift increased their frequency in populations directly ancestral to Proto-Slavs only later). At K36 for example East-Central Euro and Central Euro are typically Slavic admixtures (they are named after their modern distribution) and as you can see Crete_Armenoi scores them.
 
Tomenable said:
@Angela, which one is supposedly horrible at predicting Italian ancestry?

Please PM me your K36 results and we will see how well I can predict it.



But there were already Slavic-like genes (though it is possible that ethnic-specific drift increased their frequency in populations directly ancestral to Proto-Slavs only later). At K36 for example East-Central Euro and Central Euro are typically Slavic admixtures (they are named after their modern distribution) and as you can see Crete_Armenoi scores them.
Click to expand...
Mycenaeans were half-Slavs.
Dorian's probably even more.
Agamemnon's real name probably was Miroslav.

We got your point.


Sent from my Robin using Tapatalk
 
@Sakattack,

No it is rather about branching off from a common branch of Indo-European ancestors.

@Mlukas,

Will you upload these ancient Greeks to DNA.Land, like you did with Sarmatians?: (y)

dnaland.jpg


I want to see how much of "North Slavic" will Crete_Armenoi get. :grin:
 
Tomenable said:
No it is rather about branching from common Indo-European ancestors.

@Mlukas,

Will you upload these ancient Greeks to DNA.Land, like you did with Sarmatians?: :)

dnaland.jpg


I want to see how much "North Slavic" will Crete_Armenoi get. :)
Click to expand...
You used the worst possible sample.
You used one of the worst possible calculators.
You stated openly, insisting even after the first correction, that she maybe Dorian.
You didn't even bother to apologise for this (intended?) mistake.
And you are overdrawing conclusions.

Get over it man. Mycenaeans are in tiny percentages "steppe-like". There is a big paper upon it. Nothing Slavic, or protoSlavic, or sameparentSlavic. Sorry to poop at your party.

Sent from my Robin using Tapatalk
 
davef said:
Can someone help an idiot out? I don't understand how (according to this chart) Thessalonikis are like Cypriots with just a small extra spread of red stuff (EHG or steppe or whatever pushes them north) and it looks like Cypriots and Thessalonkikis are closer to one of the Minoan groups (Lashi or whatever it's called). I wonder if that's true for other Greeks. I'll have to read it.
But I'll admit that my interpretation could be far off and I don't understand what the chart is telling us.
https://images.nature.com/full/natu...rent/images_supplementary/nature23310-sf1.jpg
Click to expand...
Hey Angela, can you help me out with this please?
Tomenable, it's cool to take pride in your background, but I don't think the Reich dudes want you to look into the cretan armeloudian queen.

Oh crap, I'm late for something. Gotta go
 
Tomenable said:
Mycenaean I9041 is apparently more similar to modern Italians than Greeks (K36):

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
IT_Lazio IT_Tuscany IT_Abruzzo FR_Corsica IT_Campania
19.40262 20.61775 21.15594 21.54431 22.15129
Albania_South IT_Marche IT_Apulia
22.40601 22.47039 23.24806

I9041

Population percent

IT_Lazio 58.85
IT_Tuscany 20.55
IT_Campania 10.30
IT_Sardinia 7.90
Albania_South 1.20
IT_Abruzzo 0.90
Gr_Kalymnos 0.15
FR_Corsica 0.15
Click to expand...


Eurogenes K36 inflates its Italian component and it gets a bit unreliable. Results from other calculators are more consistent with what Mycenaean I9041 is: a Sardinian-shifted Sicilian/South Italian/Greek islander

MDLP K23b models Mycenaean I9041 as a Sardinian-shifted Greek as well

75.1% Greek_Islands ( ) + 24.9% Sardinian ( ) @ 7.81
5 77% Greek_Athens ( ) + 23% Sardinian ( ) @ 9.8
8 81.6% Sicilian_Center ( ) + 18.4% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.04
10 76% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 24% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.28
13 76.8% Greek_Phokaia ( ) + 23.2% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.53
16 76.1% Greek ( ) + 23.9% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.72
18 83.7% Greek_Islands ( ) + 16.3% Basque_Spanish ( ) @ 11.05
19 84.1% Greek_Islands ( ) + 15.9% Basque_French ( ) @ 11.12

MDLP K23b Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

#PopulationPercent
1 Caucasian 41.3
2 European_Early_Farmers 36.93
3 Near_East 10.41
4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 6.83
5 North_African 1.4
6 Ancestral_Altaic 1
7 Melano_Polynesian 0.89
8 South_Central_Asian 0.63
9 African_Pygmy 0.61

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1 Italian_Abruzzo ( ) 13.44
2 Sicilian_Center ( ) 15
3 Kosovar ( ) 15.16
4 Albanian_Tirana ( ) 15.37
5 Italian_Tuscan ( ) 15.51
6 Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) 15.84
7 Greek_Thessaly ( ) 15.92
8 Central_Greek ( ) 16.61
9 Italian_Piedmont ( ) 16.77
10 Sicilian_East ( ) 16.8
11 Greek_Northwest ( ) 16.94
12 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 17.15
13 Ashkenazi ( ) 17.31
14 Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) 17.44
15 Italian_South ( ) 17.5
16 Sicilian_Trapani ( ) 17.58
17 Greek_Athens ( ) 17.69
18 French_Jew ( ) 17.99
19 Sicilian_Agrigento ( ) 18.15
20 Greek_Phokaia ( ) 18.19

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

2 75.1% Greek_Islands ( ) + 24.9% Sardinian ( ) @ 7.81
4 77.1% Italian_South ( ) + 22.9% Sardinian ( ) @ 9.5
5 77% Greek_Athens ( ) + 23% Sardinian ( ) @ 9.8
8 81.6% Sicilian_Center ( ) + 18.4% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.04
10 76% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 24% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.28
13 76.8% Greek_Phokaia ( ) + 23.2% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.53
16 76.1% Greek ( ) + 23.9% Sardinian ( ) @ 10.72
18 83.7% Greek_Islands ( ) + 16.3% Basque_Spanish ( ) @ 11.05
19 84.1% Greek_Islands ( ) + 15.9% Basque_French ( ) @ 11.12

Dodecad K12b Oracle results:


#PopulationPercent
1 Atlantic_Med 40.33
2 Caucasus 40
3 Southwest_Asian 9.37
4 North_European 8.38
5 Gedrosia 1.82
6 Northwest_African 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.77
2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.83
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 12.29
4 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.34
5 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.72
6 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 15.47
7 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 15.81
8 Greek (Dodecad) 16.06
9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.16
10 O_Italian (Dodecad) 17.76
11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 18.17
12 North_Italian (HGDP) 20.37
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 21.35
14 Cypriots (Behar) 22.41
15 Baleares (1000Genomes) 28.39
16 Turkish (Dodecad) 28.44
17 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 29.42
18 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 29.63
19 Murcia (1000Genomes) 30.01
20 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 30.25

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
3 78.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.29
4 78.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.5% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.43



Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

#PopulationPercent
1 East_Med 34.36
2 West_Med 32.11
3 North_Atlantic 24.56
4 West_Asian 7.75
5 Red_Sea 1.22

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1 West_Sicilian 13.18
2 South_Italian 14.27
3 Tuscan 14.82
4 Italian_Jewish 14.82
5 Algerian_Jewish 15.66
6 Italian_Abruzzo 16.21
7 Sephardic_Jewish 16.32
8 East_Sicilian 16.63
9 Central_Greek 17.25
10 Ashkenazi 18.09
11 North_Italian 18.58
12 Tunisian_Jewish 19.85
13 Libyan_Jewish 20.41
14 Greek_Thessaly 20.45
15 Sardinian 22.13
16 Spanish_Andalucia 23.08
17 Spanish_Extremadura 23.98
18 Cyprian 24.29
19 Spanish_Murcia 24.41
20 Spanish_Valencia 24.5

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 62% Italian_Jewish + 38% Sardinian @ 7.52
3 64.5% South_Italian + 35.5% Sardinian @ 8.94
5 68.4% West_Sicilian + 31.6% Sardinian @ 9.38


Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:


#PopulationPercent
1 East_Med 31.38
2 West_Med 28.12
3 Atlantic 22.29
4 West_Asian 9.7
5 North_Sea 7.39
6 Red_Sea 1.11

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1 West_Sicilian 12.79
2 South_Italian 13.99
3 Algerian_Jewish 14.6
4 Italian_Jewish 14.85
5 Tuscan 14.98
6 Italian_Abruzzo 15.67
7 East_Sicilian 15.98
8 Sephardic_Jewish 16.1
9 Central_Greek 16.34
10 Greek 18.07
11 North_Italian 18.29
12 Tunisian_Jewish 19.11
13 Ashkenazi 19.35
14 Greek_Thessaly 20.04
15 Libyan_Jewish 21.32
16 Spanish_Andalucia 21.81
17 Cyprian 22.21
18 Sardinian 23.14
19 Spanish_Murcia 23.34
20 Spanish_Extremadura 23.5

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
3 66.3% South_Italian + 33.7% Sardinian @ 8.81
5 70.1% West_Sicilian + 29.9% Sardinian @ 9.01

 
Mycenaeans are in tiny percentages "steppe-like".
Click to expand...

I don't care about the sheer amount (however a dozen or so is not "tiny"), what is important is that steppe ancestry was present. Every model shows it. And this steppe ancestry is the only thing which differentiates Non-Indo-European Minoans from Greek-speaking Mycenaeans. So ask yourself where did the Proto-Greeks come from. And obviously shortly after coming, they had to have more of steppe ancestry. But after mixing with the locals, their steppe ancestry got dilluted.

It is likely that some of Early Mycenaeans were much more steppe than others. Because, you know, when two populations mix, initially there are big differences between individuals. Only after some generations everyone is similar to everyone else, as proportions of admixtures homogenize across the population - assuming that they intermarry freely.

But it is unlikely that those Proto-Mycenaeans came directly from the steppe.

So when they entered Greece, they were not 100% steppe but much less.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 1167569 times.

Back
Top