Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Angela]

In Sazzini's PCA samples from Apulia (Lecce) range from Sicily (Catania) to Campania (Benevento). They don't even fill the gap between Tuscans and Southern Italians, Apulians from Lecce are just in the South Italy cluster along with Sicilians, Calabrians and Campanians. I doubt that those from Bari are so different from those from Lecce.

I doubt there would be a lot of difference too, although from memory of older studies the yDna is a bit different.

 

[Yetos]

I wonder what Stamatogiannopoulos from Seatlle has hidden in his sleeves,
and what participation he had to this work,

anyway I think Next work-publication will give full results of connectivity among paleolithic - Mythical (bronze age) - Archaic (dorian) Historical (classical) Greece and Modern Greeks,

The big relief the last years is that 'some propagandists' who used Fallmeraier went home.
Let them rest, may Gods reward them and meet king Minos himshelf at the underworld to see by their own eyes

for the 'to be continued' from the Mythical civilizations when Gods had human face, and humans challenge Gods is still going on,
here in the same place milleniums after with the sons of the semi-Gods.

 

[blevins13]

man plz

why you call yourshelf Albanian?

as for Dorian descent, search all modern books,
not the Falmeraier ones as did your friend.

if you are tired to search on real kastrioti history family and alliances
at least read this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion

DNA research has proven false a lot of myths.... or hypotheses....so this might be another of those cases. Still not clear to me why you call yourself original Macedonian....no body really know who the Ancient Macedonian were genetically....so how do you know that they were G2?


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[Diomedes]

Yes Yetos, we've been around for thousands of years in that place we call home!

I wonder what Stamatogiannopoulos from Seatlle has hidden in his sleeves,
and what participation he had to this work,

anyway I think Next work-publication will give full results of connectivity among paleolithic - Mythical (bronze age) - Archaic (dorian) Historical (classical) Greece and Modern Greeks,

The big relief the last years is that 'some propagandists' who used Fallmeraier went home.
Let them rest, may Gods reward them and meet king Minos himshelf at the underworld to see by their own eyes

 

[Yetos]

DNA research has proven false a lot of myths.... or hypotheses....so this might be another of those cases. Still not clear to me why you call yourself original Macedonian....no body really know who the Ancient Macedonian were genetically....so how do you know that they were G2?


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if you do not know what and when is G2a3a,
then I suggest search your own R1b1b

And don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Leandros]

God, some people really want to believe their ancestors were Greeks.
Oh well...

 

[Yetos]

BTW

today is a fullmoon and has an eclipse

this year I was not so lucky to have time off to enjoy the divine vision of August fullmoon,

in about an hour the eclipse of the moon will start,
relax and enjoy it,
and try to recognise a star or a formation

I am leaving to find a hill to watch it, as my ancestors did, in the same lands.

my bad luck continues, my wife is not here, to share the sacred moment.

 

[LATGAL]

Jeez Yetos, some off-topic commentary is nice and all but you're overdoing it. Half the posts in the two last pages are personal ramblings.

 

[Jovialis]

The modern PCA:

Then take a look at the PCAs in this section:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature23310_SF5.html

Extended Data Figure 5: Correspondence of qpAdm estimates with PCA.

 

[Angela]

Jeez Yetos, some off-topic commentary is nice and all but you're overdoing it. Half the posts in the two last pages are personal ramblings.

Couldn't agree more...a little relief is fine, but enough is enough. Genetics and history gentlemen, please, and supporting documentation if your point is controversial. Thank you.

 

[blevins13]

if you do not know what and when is G2a3a,
then I suggest search your own R1b1b

And don't put words in my mouth.

I have done my research, and this is the reason you I don't dare to claim original anything.... still not clear to me why you call yourself Macedonian original.....probably we never know. Enjoy the moon watching BTW.


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[Angela]

Very interesting. So, no Island Greeks in the academic samples, just variations within mainland Greeks? Clinal or because of relatively recent changes in more northern areas because of population exchanges?

 

[holderlin]

that is the point,

if myceneans score only 7-13 % of Steppe,
we must reconsider who is the IE, and who was Yamnaa,
we must search the Gedrosian component,
a total upside down,

it means Rudna Glava was running by Anatolians,
we speak the road of mettalurgy of gold which is oposite of Bronze

I don't think so

Yamnaya almost certainly spoke an IE language. The debate is whether or not it was PIE or Indo-Iranian. The Yamnaya burial with 40% EEF in Bulgaria was almost certainly among IE speakers.

Then we see steppe in Mycenaeans, but not in Minoans. And the Mycenaeans look like Minoans + steppe. I don't think this paper is some huge indication that Greeks came from Armenia.

I'm still open to it though, more so since the SE Europe paper.

*EDIT* actually after the Scythian paper we know FOR CERTAIN that Yamnaya spoke either PIE or Indo-Iranian. So we have IE speakers in the Balkans in 3000BC with 40% EEF.

 

[Jovialis]

Very interesting. So, no Island Greeks in the academic samples, just variations within mainland Greeks? Clinal or because of relatively recent changes in more northern areas because of population exchanges?

Not sure, but it was taken from the PCA you posted. I just labeled the markers for clarity, to compare it to where the Mycenaeans are placed.

Edit:

I think that it would be relatively recent exchanges to bring them so close to one another on the chart.

There was this article about the increase of admixture with other Balkan people in the middle ages. It said there's the difference between the mainland and the islands; who are more like the southern Italians and Sicilians. We see on the PCA chart the original Mycenaean are close to this. I think the Greek islanders are probably very close to the Sicilians, if they were on the PCA. You had mentioned they are mostly from Thessaly on this particular PCA. Nevertheless, It is possible they were getting pulled in that direction, more and more over time, due to the sheer proximity of the populations, at least to a small degree before the middle ages.

Post regarding the article:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...rn-Italy/page8?p=512990&viewfull=1#post512990

 

[Dianatomia]

I agree with this, even though I have some doubts about the last sentence.
First of all, we know that the Mycenaeans had contacts with the Minoans from their beginning and we also know that the Minoan Civ was a culture of peace. And peace it was. There have been intermarriages, trades, maybe some sort of taxes under the Minoan rule. So no "invasion". No war signs. Migration into the Hellenic soil, yes, and further interaction with that was there. After the Minoan fall, basically because of end of resources + some natural disaster (these scenarios or a combo of those are the most possible scenario now) looks like the Mycenaeans took their place, they even used the same palace for some period, and developed further with their means. Does not sound like brutal invasion to me.



Again, we cannot talk with accuracy about "invasion", because we don't have enough data to support it. It is a movement.
What you say, maybe true about the Classical Age Northerns, but to support they have been importantly different than their Southern brothers, we have to accept either that a) it has been a second wave of Greek speakers to the Greek land (from wherever we like to put it), after the Achaeans, which IMO is really unlikely or b) that these people have been with extensive contact and genetic sharing with their neighbors (plausible), with the neighbors being not only considerably, but almost nothing close to them (not that possible).

About the mobility that you say in Asia Minor etc is really not relevant genetically, because we talk about very similar pops in both sides of the Aegean (so minor change), plus any really serious further contact with them would have brought some additional EEF/Iran. I doubt that their CHG proportions at that time was so significantly higher than the Greeks.

Thousand years it is. But I said before, during double period of time (2k years) and between - till last week believed - "irrelevant" populations, with different tongues and Gods, we see only a slight difference, only a weak 10%! I don't believe that from the Greek Mycenaeans to the Greek Classics of the same lands and the same Gods, we will see bigger difference.

Maybe I am wrong and you get it right, maybe sth else that right now crossed noone's mind happened, we simply don't know. We all can make predictions and suppositions, though, and these are my two cents!

Still, the tested Myceneans are Southern Greeks and mainly Cretans. If Northern admixture reached the island of Crete, it can mean that there is more of it in the mainland. Would still like to see the remains of Bronze Age Northern Greeks to see whether there is a difference there. Also like to see DNA from classical Greeks tested and see who is responsible for the Greek Dark Ages. Right now I am thinking of some J2b fellows up north with some additional steppe ancestry.

See how much of this is true:

 

[Diomedes]

A man has to speak his mind. It relieves stress broette.

Jeez Yetos, some off-topic commentary is nice and all but you're overdoing it. Half the posts in the two last pages are personal ramblings.

 

[Ygorbr]

that is the point, if myceneans score only 7-13 % of Steppe,
we must reconsider who is the IE, and who was Yamnaa,
we must search the Gedrosian component,
a total upside down,

Must we? If my perceptions of archaeology + linguistics + genetics end up being right, the 7-13% Steppe admixture differentiating Mycenaeans from Minoans and other non-Indo-European peoples in the Aegean right in the first centuries of Indo-European-speaking history in Greece are absolutely expected, and there is no need to turn things upside down because of those results. What's definitely proved is that a Corded Ware-style expansion of IE languages doesn't apply in more populous regions like Southern Europe.

But we have so many historic, documented examples of mixed expansionist peoples causing language shift in a few hundred years without leaving major genetic impact (Turkish in Turkey, Arabic in Lebanon, . In all those cases, the demographic impact of the incoming powerful conquerors wasn't larger than 20% of the population, and that's also what we see here in the case of Mycenaeans if they came from the north Balkans or even from Anatolia. Their 10%-13% Steppe probably mean that their genetics account for 20% to 25% of the BA Greek pool. That's more than enough to trigger language shift.

Until now, in all regions that experienced Indo-Europeanization during the Bronze Age, steppe-like components (and above all EHG admixture) previously absent have been found, even if in small percentages, so there's a clear link between this and Indo-European languages. Remember that Romance languages spread in the Americas through a people (Iberians) with a minor % of steppe admixture and also a low % of Italian-derived ancestry.

 

[Tomenable]

"Below are derived allele counts and total numbers of reads for SNPs that have a large effect on phenotype for 19 Minoan, Mycenaean, Neolithic Greek, and Bronze Age Anatolian genomes. Nonzero derived allele counts are highlighted. Note that small derived allele counts may be due to DNA damage:"


https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/08/04/phenotype-snps-for-minoans-and-mycenaeans/


At least one the Minoans had brown skin, while all of the Mycenaeans had light skin:


SLC45A2, rs16891982, Caucasoid light skin


Sample Population Date BC Derived/Total


I2937 Neolithic Greek 5460–5378 2/3
I9130 Minoan 2900–1900 1/1
I0070 Minoan 2000–1700 7/7
I0071 Minoan 2000–1700 0/36 ---> darker skin
I0073 Minoan 2000–1700 13/13
I0074 Minoan 2000–1700 3/3
I9005 Minoan 2000–1700 13/13
I9010 Mycenaean 1700–1200 4/4
I9041 Mycenaean 1700–1200 5/12
I9033 Mycenaean 1416–1280 2/3
I9006 Mycenaean 1411–1262 9/10
I2499 Bronze Age Anatolian 2836–2472 0/1 ---> darker skin
I2495 Bronze Age Anatolian 2558–2295 12/13
I2683 Bronze Age Anatolian 2500–1800 6/23


And another gene which lightens skin pigmentation:


TYR, rs1042602, lighter skin, absence of freckles


Sample Population Date BC Derived/Total


I2937 Neolithic Greek 5460–5378 0/1 ---> less light skin
I9130 Minoan 2900–1900 0/1 ---> less light skin
I9131 Minoan 2900–1900 1/1
I0070 Minoan 2000–1700 5/5
I0071 Minoan 2000–1700 9/22 ---> a bit less light skin
I9005 Minoan 2000–1700 2/9 ---> a bit less light skin
I9010 Mycenaean 1700–1200 3/3
I9041 Mycenaean 1700–1200 4/5
I9033 Mycenaean 1416–1280 3/3
I9006 Mycenaean 1411–1262 11/11
I2499 Bronze Age Anatolian 2836–2472 0/1 ---> less light skin
I2495 Bronze Age Anatolian 2558–2295 0/1 ---> less light skin
I2683 Bronze Age Anatolian 2500–1800 0/6 ---> less light skin


So the Mycenaeans had - on average - slightly lighter skin than the Minoans.

 

[Diomedes]

^ Even nowadays people in Crete have a bit darker color, as they have more exposure to sun.

 

[Angela]

"Below are derived allele counts and total numbers of reads for SNPs that have a large effect on phenotype for 19 Minoan, Mycenaean, Neolithic Greek, and Bronze Age Anatolian genomes. Nonzero derived allele counts are highlighted. Note that small derived allele counts may be due to DNA damage:"


https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/08/04/phenotype-snps-for-minoans-and-mycenaeans/


At least one the Minoans had brown skin, while all of the Mycenaeans had light skin:


SLC45A2, rs16891982, Caucasoid light skin


Sample Population Date BC Derived/Total


I2937 Neolithic Greek 5460–5378 2/3
I9130 Minoan 2900–1900 1/1
I0070 Minoan 2000–1700 7/7
I0071 Minoan 2000–1700 0/36 ---> darker skin
I0073 Minoan 2000–1700 13/13
I0074 Minoan 2000–1700 3/3
I9005 Minoan 2000–1700 13/13
I9010 Mycenaean 1700–1200 4/4
I9041 Mycenaean 1700–1200 5/12
I9033 Mycenaean 1416–1280 2/3
I9006 Mycenaean 1411–1262 9/10
I2499 Bronze Age Anatolian 2836–2472 0/1 ---> darker skin
I2495 Bronze Age Anatolian 2558–2295 12/13
I2683 Bronze Age Anatolian 2500–1800 6/23


And another gene which lightens skin pigmentation:


TYR, rs1042602, lighter skin, absence of freckles


Sample Population Date BC Derived/Total


I2937 Neolithic Greek 5460–5378 0/1 ---> less light skin
I9130 Minoan 2900–1900 0/1 ---> less light skin
I9131 Minoan 2900–1900 1/1
I0070 Minoan 2000–1700 5/5
I0071 Minoan 2000–1700 9/22 ---> a bit less light skin
I9005 Minoan 2000–1700 2/9 ---> a bit less light skin
I9010 Mycenaean 1700–1200 3/3
I9041 Mycenaean 1700–1200 4/5
I9033 Mycenaean 1416–1280 3/3
I9006 Mycenaean 1411–1262 11/11
I2499 Bronze Age Anatolian 2836–2472 0/1 ---> less light skin
I2495 Bronze Age Anatolian 2558–2295 0/1 ---> less light skin
I2683 Bronze Age Anatolian 2500–1800 0/6 ---> less light skin


So the Mycenaeans had - on average - slightly lighter skin than the Minoans.

As always, you don't play it straight. That's one Minoan out of the set, plus that's not what the paper showed when they ran the samples through special programs, as I pointed out at the very beginning of the thread.

You have totally destroyed your credibility over the past months, and it's a difficult thing building trust back up again.

Minoan youth at Knossos...

Maiden:

Men are usually portrayed as darker,probably to show tanning from being outdoors.

People working in the fields would also be darker. My husband can turn ten shades darker after a couple of days in the sun. It's good protection.

What the snps have told us is that the Minoans and the Mycenaeans basically looked the same, and portrayed themselves accurately.

Mycenaean women...body shape is the same too...