Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 18 of 78 FirstFirst ... 816171819202868 ... LastLast
Results 426 to 450 of 1942

Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #426
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    25
    Posts
    883
    Points
    8,064
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,064, Level: 26
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Phrygians resided in Macedonia prior migrating to Anatolia,the garden of Phrygian king Midas with his golden touch was in the feet of Mount Bermion where Macedonian elite later will emerge.
    I would even assume Phrygian to be close to ancient Macedonian but we know very little of both languages so we can't say anything apart that they dwelled on same teritory according to ancient sources,the gardens of Midas the "Mygdonian king" the Phrygian "Mygdon" the region "Mygdonia" and later Makedonia bear some similarities to me.Some made Armenians to be Phrygians or closely related but in my opinion this two languages are not similar at all,also some attested Phrygian words are totally lacking of Greek language,only some shared features.

    The Phrygians were advanced people even in Anatolia they had their alphabet,prosperous cities etc
    Is there any chance that the Phrygians didn't migrate from Europe? now I know that this is very controversial, I should start a thread discussing this some day, but for now, a quote from this book (The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe Ca. 1200 B.C.):
    Although many historians continue to believe in a Phrygian migrationfrom Europe to Asia Minor ca. 1200 B.C, the idea has been generally
    abandoned by Anatolian archaeologists. Maspero's Phrygian migration
    was widely accepted when excavations first showed that Hattusas, Alishar,
    and other Hittite sites were destroyed ca. 1200. Eventually, however, it
    became clear that at none of the Hittite was there any evidence for
    newcomers after the destruction. As a result, by the 1960s Hittitologists
    were generally agreed that no "new people" had brought down the Hittite
    empire. The history of western Anatolia is less clear, but the evidence that
    has been advanced for a new population there is exiguous. A few shreds of
    "barbarian ware" have been found at Troy (VIIb2) and at Gordium, but
    the shreds are too few and too late to serve as an argument that a Phrygian
    invasion from the Balkans was reponsible for the Catastrophe in western
    Anatolia. At most, the shreds may indicate--as Kenneth Sams has
    argued--that in the aftermath of the Catastrophe immigrants from Europe
    squatted in the ruins of Troy. After his last review of the pottery from the
    period, even Schachermeyr abandoned the idea that it was a Phrygian
    migration from Europe that set "the sea peoples" in motion. The lack of
    archaelogical support for a Phrygian migration from Europe ca. 1200 is
    hardly surprising since, as noted previously, Maspero's thesis rested
    entirely on statements by two Greek authors of the fifth century. Analysis will
    show that the statements in question--one from Herodutos and one from
    the Lydiaka of Xanthus--have no value as evidence for Bronze Age history.
    Contradicting the earlier Greek view that the Phrygians had "always"
    lived in Phrygia, the texts seem to have been occasioned by a late fifth-
    century controvercy about the identity of the legendary king Midas.
    Although we can be quite certain that "the Phrygian migration from Europe"
    was first postulated in the age of Pericles, Maspero assumed that it
    was a fact, faithfully transmitted from the thirteenth century to
    Herodotus's and Xanthus's own day. and on this "fact" he based his "Phrygian
    migration from Europe" shortly before the reign of Ramesses III. There is
    no reason to doubt that the Phrygian language spoken in western Anatolia
    during the Iron age was descended from a proto-Phrygian spoken there in
    the late Bronze Age.
    The Kingdom of Hayassa existed from 1500 to 1290 BC to the east of the Hittite Empire had very interesting kings and chiefs names, like Midas and Karranis, Midas was a common name in the royal house of Phrygia, and Karranis is comparable to Caranus, a legendary king of Macedonia.

  2. #427
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,221
    Points
    41,647
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,647, Level: 62
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorbr View Post
    That could happen, a J2-majority or another people shifting to an IE language somewhere in Anatolia or northern Balkans and then bringing it to the Aegean, but I still find it unlikely. That hypothesis wouldn't explain why IE languages always seem to have appeared in any European region when at least EHG (and mostly EHG+CHG) admixtures increase in relation to EEF. Also, Minoans still look very heavy in Neolithic EEF, which was certainly pre-IE. Besides, that wouldn't quite explain why Linear B could be identified as Greek (and it was used only by Mycenaeans), but Linear A used by Minoans could never be identified as Proto-Greek or even another similar IE language. And the fact that there was a non-IE language, Eteocretan, spoken after the demise of the Minoan civilization in Crete seems to suggest that it was a remnant substrate of an ancient linguistic landscape that was overrun by Greek dialects.
    Ygor the p[roblem is not Linear A
    neither the 2 lost tablets of WW2

    the problem is Kydoneans and eteo-Cretans,

    If Kydoneians = Minoans then might be IE
    if Eteo-Cretans = Minoans then surely not IE
    that is the problem from Homers time,

    I mention in previous post in the thread
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  3. #428
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,221
    Points
    41,647
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,647, Level: 62
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Is there any chance that the Phrygians didn't migrate from Europe? now I know that this is very controversial, I should start a thread discussing this some day, but for now, a quote from this book (The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe Ca. 1200 B.C.):


    The Kingdom of Hayassa existed from 1500 to 1290 BC to the east of the Hittite Empire had very interesting kings and chiefs names, like Midas and Karranis, Midas was a common name in the royal house of Phrygia, and Karranis is comparable to Caranus, a legendary king of Macedonia.
    Alexander and Gordium
    Brygians are the Mygdonians by history

  4. #429
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,221
    Points
    41,647
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,647, Level: 62
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Yetos, I read on Euripedia that Dorians brought R1b Z2103, which is the same DNA as mine http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...html#Anatolian

    So it seems that I am Doric original after all....If DNA is the criteria of selection. So what do you think about this unaccepted turn of events.
    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    what unaccepted? what criteria? what events? what Doric?
    First make up your mind what you are, and not what you would like to be.

  5. #430
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    25
    Posts
    883
    Points
    8,064
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,064, Level: 26
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    Sorry if I'm flooding the place with quotes, this is the last time I promise.

    Honestly, I don't remember where I found this, I think it was Armenian perspectives, maybe

    And here rises another problem: who precisely lived in Hayasa-Azzi? In my opinion,the recent work of G.Jahukian on toponomastic data are of some value. He
    concludes that the population of this political unity was in all probability not
    homogenous but consisted instead of unidentified Anatolian, Thracian as well as
    Armenian ethnic elements. Furthermore, Jahoukian proposes that those IE stems of
    Armenian which were not borrowed directly from the original IE language must have
    from these languages of Hayasa-Azzi.to this argument we may add the
    name of Mita, ruler of Pahuwa, the Hayasean land, who is attested in the redated
    Hittite text of the 15th century BC -- he bears the same name as the famous king of
    the Mushku-Phrygia.


    One may note also the visible traces of Phrygian-Thracian toponyms in south-western
    and north eastern parts of the Armenian Highland, as noted by S.Petrosian and H.Karageozian
    , leading to a general conclusion that Phrygian-Thracian ethnic groups were present
    in the Armenian Highland at least before the fall of the Hittite Empire. Furthermore, their
    joint residence in the Upper Euphrates valley can be taken as a weighty
    argument for the interpretation of Herodotus and Eudoxus's passages about a close Armenian-Phrygian
    relationship. In my view, this relationship (the Phrygianization of the Armenians in language, dress and weapons)
    stemmed from those times when the Mushku still lived in the Upper
    Euphrates valley-- in thye neighbourhood of the Urumu-Armenians.


    That events developed in this way finds support in archaelogical
    data from Gordion, the capital city of Phrygia. Here, side by
    side with western Anatolian data, eastern Anatolian artefacts
    , namely from Malatya and even from the Iranian plateaux
    , are well traced. The eastern element consists of highly
    developed metallurgy, animal-shaped monochrome pottery and
    other objects of Oriental origin.


    M. Mellink has called this type an "Orientalizing art of Gordion"
    -- this culture is well traced at Gordion in the ninth-eigth centuries BC,
    leading to the conclusion that it was the Mushku tribes of the
    Upper Euphrates valley who formed the people who created
    this Gordion orientalizing style. It is worth noting that
    Movses Khorenatsi too was informed about these close Armenian-Mushku
    contacts when he describes the deeds of the legendary King
    Aram and his expedition towards the west, where he appointed
    Mshak as ruler of Kesaria (= Arm. Mazak)


  6. #431
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    385
    Points
    3,587
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,587, Level: 17
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Is there any chance that the Phrygians didn't migrate from Europe? now I know that this is very controversial, I should start a thread discussing this some day, but for now, a quote from this book (The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe Ca. 1200 B.C.):


    The Kingdom of Hayassa existed from 1500 to 1290 BC to the east of the Hittite Empire had very interesting kings and chiefs names, like Midas and Karranis, Midas was a common name in the royal house of Phrygia, and Karranis is comparable to Caranus, a legendary king of Macedonia.
    From where is this quote?
    Although many historians continue to believe in a Phrygian migrationfrom Europe to Asia Minor ca. 1200 B.C, the idea has been generally
    abandoned by Anatolian archaeologists. Maspero's Phrygian migration
    was widely accepted when excavations first showed that Hattusas, Alishar,
    and other Hittite sites were destroyed ca. 1200. Eventually, however, it
    became clear that at none of the Hittite was there any evidence for
    newcomers after the destruction. As a result, by the 1960s Hittitologists
    were generally agreed that no "new people" had brought down the Hittite
    empire. The history of western Anatolia is less clear, but the evidence that
    has been advanced for a new population there is exiguous. A few shreds of
    "barbarian ware" have been found at Troy (VIIb2) and at Gordium, but
    the shreds are too few and too late to serve as an argument that a Phrygian
    invasion from the Balkans was reponsible for the Catastrophe in western
    Anatolia. At most, the shreds may indicate--as Kenneth Sams has
    argued--that in the aftermath of the Catastrophe immigrants from Europe
    squatted in the ruins of Troy. After his last review of the pottery from the
    period, even Schachermeyr abandoned the idea that it was a Phrygian
    migration from Europe that set "the sea peoples" in motion. The lack of
    archaelogical support for a Phrygian migration from Europe ca. 1200 is
    hardly surprising since, as noted previously, Maspero's thesis rested
    entirely on statements by two Greek authors of the fifth century. Analysis will
    show that the statements in question--one from Herodutos and one from
    the Lydiaka of Xanthus--have no value as evidence for Bronze Age history.
    Contradicting the earlier Greek view that the Phrygians had "always"
    lived in Phrygia, the texts seem to have been occasioned by a late fifth-
    century controvercy about the identity of the legendary king Midas.
    Although we can be quite certain that "the Phrygian migration from Europe"
    was first postulated in the age of Pericles, Maspero assumed that it
    was a fact, faithfully transmitted from the thirteenth century to
    Herodotus's and Xanthus's own day. and on this "fact" he based his "Phrygian
    migration from Europe" shortly before the reign of Ramesses III. There is
    no reason to doubt that the Phrygian language spoken in western Anatolia
    during the Iron age was descended from a proto-Phrygian spoken there in
    the late Bronze Age.
    Based on Herodotus and Macedonians themselves the Phrygians were called Bryges while living in Europe (Macedonia) and later migrated in Anatolia.If one question such migration the entire geography of Troj and Trojan war should be questioned in my opinion,Mygdon of Phrygia migrated there shortly before Trojan war i think so,A part of the Phrygians are said to have been called after him Mygdonians,since we have Dardania in Europe,Dardanelles in Anatolia,Phrygians in Europe,Phrygians in Anatolia,Mysians in Anatolia,Moesians in Europe.

    I doubt we can challenge written history.Maybe only genetic testing from different epochs can confirm this.

  7. #432
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    15-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    627
    Points
    3,498
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,498, Level: 17
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 352
    Overall activity: 26.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    what unaccepted? what criteria? what events? what Doric?
    First make up your mind what you are, and not what you would like to be.
    Read Eupedia, first and let me know what you think, do you believe z2103 is Doric?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  8. #433
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    385
    Points
    3,587
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,587, Level: 17
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorbr View Post
    Also, Minoans still look very heavy in Neolithic EEF, which was certainly pre-IE. Besides, that wouldn't quite explain why Linear B could be identified as Greek (and it was used only by Mycenaeans), but Linear A used by Minoans could never be identified as Proto-Greek or even another similar IE language. And the fact that there was a non-IE language, Eteocretan, spoken after the demise of the Minoan civilization in Crete seems to suggest that it was a remnant substrate of an ancient linguistic landscape that was overrun by Greek dialects.

    In Crete in my opinion people of different origins lived,since it was trading center you could have find traders from "elsewhere",like in the island of Samothrace for example,which in myth is connected to Cadmus,man that brought alphabet to Greece,there lived Greeks,Thracians,Pelasgians,Phoenicans etc.
    The Linear A is undeciphered yet i guess so.

  9. #434
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,221
    Points
    41,647
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,647, Level: 62
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Read Eupedia, first and let me know what you think, do you believe z2103 is Doric?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    your post and your game smells badly,

    and I ask,
    did you decide what you are and what you would like to be?

  10. #435
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    220
    Points
    7,816
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,816, Level: 26
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 334
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    In Crete in my opinion people of different origins lived,since it was trading center you could have find traders from "elsewhere",like in the island of Samothrace for example,which in myth is connected to Cadmus,man that brought alphabet to Greece,there lived Greeks,Thracians,Pelasgians,Phoenicans etc.
    The Linear A is undeciphered yet i guess so.
    The DNA of the remains suggests that Minoans were genetically similar to each other. They even were genetically quite similar to the Myceneans in the Southern mainland. This doesn't suggest a multicultural society.

  11. #436
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    385
    Points
    3,587
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,587, Level: 17
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The DNA of the remains suggests that Minoans were genetically similar to each other. They even were genetically quite similar to the Myceneans in the Southern mainland. This doesn't suggest a multicultural society.
    Here is some quotes of Greek authors;
    There is a land called Crete in the midst of the wine-blue sea,a beautiful and fertile land, seagirt; in it are manypeople, innumerable, and there are ninety cities.Language with language is mingled together. There are Akhaians,there are great-hearted Eteocretans, there are Kydones,and Dorians in their three clans, and noble Pelasgians
    Of them [the peoples in the above passage] Staphylos says that the Dorians occupy the region towards the east, the Kydones the western part, the Eteocretans the southern, whose town is Prasos, where the temple of Diktaian Zeus is; and that the Eteocretans and Kydones are probably indigenous, but the others incomers
    Maybe even the kingdom of Candia doesn't existed a Venetian trading center on Crete in middle ages? that does not imply there wasn't any Greeks but ruling elite,the traders were Venetians,and in Minoan time we can know much less.
    Entire Balkans is similar genetically a land much waste than island of Crete yet we are multicultural,Balkans always was multiculural if you are reffering to language.

  12. #437
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    15-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    627
    Points
    3,498
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,498, Level: 17
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 352
    Overall activity: 26.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    your post and your game smells badly,

    and I ask,
    did you decide what you are and what you would like to be?
    Yetos why you turn it personal, it is no a matter of decision...., it is a simple question, your opinion is valuable since you know a lot about Greek history, as I said my DNA turn z2103 and I am asking you, do you think is Doric....? My nationality is Albanian in the process of becoming Us Citizens since you need this answer very badly. Ignore this post if it smells badly to you.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  13. #438
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    25
    Posts
    883
    Points
    8,064
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,064, Level: 26
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    From where is this quote?

    Based on Herodotus and Macedonians themselves the Phrygians were called Bryges while living in Europe (Macedonia) and later migrated in Anatolia.If one question such migration the entire geography of Troj and Trojan war should be questioned in my opinion,Mygdon of Phrygia migrated there shortly before Trojan war i think so,A part of the Phrygians are said to have been called after him Mygdonians,since we have Dardania in Europe,Dardanelles in Anatolia,Phrygians in Europe,Phrygians in Anatolia,Mysians in Anatolia,Moesians in Europe.

    I doubt we can challenge written history.Maybe only genetic testing from different epochs can confirm this.
    The quote is from this book The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe Ca. 1200 B.C.
    https://books.google.com.sa/books/ab...8C&redir_esc=y page 65

    Couldn't all of these peoples migrated from Anatolia to Europe?






  14. #439
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,240
    Points
    12,148
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,148, Level: 33
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 502
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is something I don't understand in the admixture analysis from the paper. Modern Greeks from Thessaloniki are shown as having 20% of red EHG, 20% of pink CHG, 59% of blue ENF and 1% of dark green Natufian, but they completely lack the purple admixture that makes up 35-100% of Neolithic Greeks, 15-30% of Minoans and 25-45% of Mycenaeans. It's also missing from other modern Greeks and Cypriots. What happened to that admixture? It couldn't simply have vanished like that. Is that because they didn't re-run those samples using the same K17 parameters? If so that would be highly unprofessional of them for a published peer-reviewed paper. If not, that raises a lot of questions.




    I also disagree with Lazaridis and al. when they say that "Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry". Mycenaeans are much closer to the Minoans than to Modern Greeks. Modern Greeks have 3x more EHG (about 20%) than Mycenaeans (7%), but they also have WHG (3% according to D-stat). This suggests that numerous waves of European invaders (Dorians, Celts, Romans, Goths, Slavs) contributed to a large share of modern Greek DNA. Since obviously no invader to Greece were pure EHG, and none had more than 50% of EHG in average (30-35% might be more realistic as the Romans had comparatively low EHG), to increase from 7% to 20% of EHG, the percentage of post-Mycenaean DNA from European invaders must be comprised between 25% and 40%. Most of it will be blue ENF and pink CHG that won't be identifiable using these relatively simple admixtures. What we see is only the clear increase in EHG, which is only one third to half of the new invaders' DNA.

    In other words modern Greeks are nothing like Mycenaean Greeks, and even less Minoan Greeks. Modern Greeks have much more European ancestry. Y-DNA alone suggests 40 to 45% of European lineages (as opposed to Near Eastern), and over 60% if we included E-V13 (E1b1b came from the Near East but E-V13 clearly emerged in Europe). Greeks possess lineages that are clearly Germanic (3.5% of I1, so about 10% of Germanic overall with I2a2-L801, R1b-U106 and R1a-L664), Slavic (11% of R1a, which is overwhelmingly M458 and CTS1211) and Italo-Celtic (about 7% of R1b-U152 and 1% of G2a-L497).
    I think if you notice, the modern greek samples resemble Minoan Lashi more with a little extra Natufian for the cypriots and extra Steppe for the Coriels and the Thessalonikis. Does anyone else find this interesting?

    Note: I'm not flat out saying that modern Greeks have no Mycenaean ancestry. Let's keep this professional.

  15. #440
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-03-17
    Posts
    50
    Points
    1,257
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,257, Level: 9
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 93
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Here is some quotes of Greek authors;

    Those Greek authors were speaking from the point of view of post-Minoan, post-Mycenaean Crete (Odysseus' narratives were most likely written in the late Dark Ages of Greece, transitioning toward Classical Greece). We know for sure that two of those foreign elements, Akhaians and Dorians, were IE tribes arrived from mainland Greece. Eteocretans, who were probably a minority in Classical times, were called "true Cretans", "original Cretans" or something like that, and I don't think that must be only a coincidence in that they weren't IE speakers and were named "true Cretans".

  16. #441
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    385
    Points
    3,587
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,587, Level: 17
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorbr View Post
    Those Greek authors were speaking from the point of view of post-Minoan, post-Mycenaean Crete (Odysseus' narratives were most likely written in the late Dark Ages of Greece, transitioning toward Classical Greece). We know for sure that two of those foreign elements, Akhaians and Dorians, were IE tribes arrived from mainland Greece. Eteocretans, who were probably a minority in Classical times, were called "true Cretans", "original Cretans" or something like that, and I don't think that must be only a coincidence in that they weren't IE speakers and were named "true Cretans".
    Yes it is post-Minoan authors and post-Mycenaean but if you read carefully you will notice Eteocretans and Kydones who are counted as original inhabitants and the Pelasgians elsewhere known as pre-Greeks that's all together three different "ethnicities" or communities.
    The ancient authors did not care who was IE or not,they weren't linguists to give name accordingly,Eteocretans were named so because were the old inhabitants of Crete probably.
    I am not arguing that Eteocretans or Minoans were IE or not.

    Eteocretan language may not be related to Minoan after all
    The language, which is not understood, is probably a survival of a language spoken on Crete before the arrival of Greeks and may or may not be derived from the Minoan language preserved in the Linear A inscriptions of a millennium earlier. Since that language remains untranslated, it is not certain that Eteocretan and Minoan are related.

  17. #442
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    385
    Points
    3,587
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,587, Level: 17
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    The quote is from this book The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe Ca. 1200 B.C.
    https://books.google.com.sa/books/ab...8C&redir_esc=y page 65

    Couldn't all of these peoples migrated from Anatolia to Europe?

    The written sources say otherwise but in my opinion they could if not all some of them,for example i think that Greek language came from there,maybe i am not right about that but i'm more inclined to think that way now.
    That's interesting insight in that book.

  18. #443
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    25
    Posts
    883
    Points
    8,064
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,064, Level: 26
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    The written sources say otherwise but in my opinion they could if not all some of them,for example i think that Greek language came from there,maybe i am not right about that but i'm more inclined to think that way now.
    That's interesting insight in that book.
    They explain the written sources as:

    The lack of
    archaelogical support for a Phrygian migration from Europe ca. 1200 is
    hardly surprising since, as noted previously, Maspero's thesis rested
    entirely on statements by two Greek authors of the fifth century. Analysis will
    show that the statements in question--one from Herodutos and one from
    the Lydiaka of Xanthus--have no value as evidence for Bronze Age history.
    Contradicting the earlier Greek view that the Phrygians had "always"
    lived in Phrygia, the texts seem to have been occasioned by a late fifth-
    century
    controvercy about the identity of the legendary king Midas.
    I wonder where can we find this earlier Greek view? what sources?

  19. #444
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,207
    Points
    334,394
    Level
    100
    Points: 334,394, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    If we should have learned anything in the last five or so years it's to take the ancient authors' stories with a big grain of salt.

    If we want to get a reasonable handle on population migrations in ancient history we have to combine ancient dna with archaeology, with some input from linguistics, but I think it's turning out that genetics will change linguistic analysis more than the other way around.

    We should also have learned that admixture runs are very unreliable, if for no other reason than that with every K the clusters reform and new ones can even appear.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  20. #445
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,240
    Points
    12,148
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,148, Level: 33
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 502
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If we should have learned anything in the last five or so years it's to take the ancient authors' stories with a big grain of salt.

    If we want to get a reasonable handle on population migrations in ancient history we have to combine ancient dna with archaeology, with some input from linguistics, but I think it's turning out that genetics will change linguistic analysis more than the other way around.

    We should also have learned that admixture runs are very unreliable, if for no other reason than that with every K the clusters reform and new ones can even appear.
    Got it. I guess I shouldn't think too deeply about the admixture chart.

  21. #446
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranTagger Second Class5000 Experience Points
    Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    357
    Points
    9,350
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,350, Level: 28
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 600
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I agree
    I have been stating that illyrians originate around noricum ( east austria ) and modern eastern slovenia for a long time.
    and yes these illyrians are part of celtic Halstatt
    I never heard of the dorians in Dalmatia, but always wanted to know who the illyrians pushed south as they moved south from noricum
    More precisely an Illyrian tribe that later, perhaps, mixed with the Dorians came, maybe, from Dalmatia or Illyria in general...a migration from the North-West (of Greece) in the Sub-Mycanean period was detected even by the famous anthropologist J.L. Angel in Skeletal material from Attica

    And increase in European Alpine, Dinaric-Mediterranean, and Nordic-Iranian types over their frequencies in Late Helladic III suggests that the amazing Submycenaean type diversity obvious in Plates XLVII to L is a result of the arrival of invaders. 105 (note:Probably from the north and northwest judging by the Iron Age crania from Illyria and Classical Macedonians from Olynthus. Cf. 1. L. Angel, in D. M. Robinson, Necrolynthia, Table IV.) Except for too definite an Iranian element the new tendencies in Attica approximate the Alpine and Dinaric (-Nordic) combination which present material suggests as typical of the Dorians, though such a combinationw as probably typical of many North or West Greek and Illyrian-speaking peoples at this time.

  22. #447
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    15-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    627
    Points
    3,498
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,498, Level: 17
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 352
    Overall activity: 26.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    It has been suggested that Dorians were partly mixed with the Illyrians. The Dorian tribe of the Hylleis in particular may was an Illyrian tribe related to the Hylloi of central Dalmatia. Illyrians in turn mixed the Hallstatt folks from the north. If this was true then it can explain in part why Post-Mycenaeans Greeks were more "Northerners"

    The Dorian homeland was likely located in Epirus, a region that bordered with Illyria
    Attachment 9013
    Cato chi e l'autore di questo studio....perche non vedo il nome.....


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  23. #448
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,240
    Points
    12,148
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,148, Level: 33
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 502
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    To whoever neg rated me: relax! :) I did warn that I wasn't stating that modern Greeks don't have Mycenaean ancestry. I just wanted someone to clear up the confusion behind the chart.

  24. #449
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,221
    Points
    41,647
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,647, Level: 62
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    They explain the written sources as:



    I wonder where can we find this earlier Greek view? what sources?
    Makedonians consider Phrygians as their brothers
    and mygdonians the Phrygians that left behind,

    that is what history writes,

    expecting more from geneticks

  25. #450
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,221
    Points
    41,647
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,647, Level: 62
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 3
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    More precisely an Illyrian tribe that later, perhaps, mixed with the Dorians came, maybe, from Dalmatia or Illyria in general...a migration from the North-West (of Greece) in the Sub-Mycanean period was detected even by the famous anthropologist J.L. Angel in Skeletal material from Attica
    That is the problem,

    The archaiological found suggest that Myceneans, Not the dorians descent from Vucedol

    But the geneticks show oposite,

Page 18 of 78 FirstFirst ... 816171819202868 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •