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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Oh no, I meant by the Hellenic age from the coming of the proto-Hellenes (Myceneans?), I didn't mean the period after Alexander.
    I suppose you meant "Helladic" instead of "Hellenistic"
    We have "Helladic" for the continent, as well "Cycladic" for the Aegean and "Minoan" for Crete.
    So, we have for example at early Bronze Age the early Helladic, early Cycladic, etc, as also Middle and Late with subdivisions to each one (i) (ii) (iii) and on.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    I should be more careful the next time.
    Next time be more carefull. I almost was ready to downrate you... You test my generosity this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Relatively high.

    High steppe in modern Greeks compared to what Mycenaean peasants had. Modern Greeks have way more of steppe ancestry than Mycenaean commoners. Look at the PCA graph. Mycenaeans cluster with Sicilians, not with mainland Greeks - who are ca. 1/4 more shifted in the direction of Russians.

    Why did you remove my satirical picture (Greek Nationalist's Dilemma)?:

    How much fun...


    But the true is that is not what "modern Greeks" bother about. I think they mostly have pride for their language mostly.
    An other think is the "slavic"genetic imput as mentioned, it profited us and not damaged us.
    It is interesting to see how other people (barbarians, Lol) consider about the Greeks.


    Hey it;s a catchy thread and running wild... Nice conversation guys, I wish to have more time, thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    More precisely an Illyrian tribe that later, perhaps, mixed with the Dorians came, maybe, from Dalmatia or Illyria in general...a migration from the North-West (of Greece) in the Sub-Mycanean period was detected even by the famous anthropologist J.L. Angel in Skeletal material from Attica
    There are plenty of indications that Greece was being settled by other tribes from the North even in the Mycenean era and the Greek Dark Ages. This is what the authors of this research also have mentioned in the first place. It's just that some people wanted to baptize Mycenean Greeks as the Ancient (i.e Classical) Greeks in general. Surely the two were related. But there certainly may have been some differences.

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    5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Relatively high.

    High steppe in modern Greeks compared to what Mycenaean peasants had. Modern Greeks have way more of steppe ancestry than Mycenaean commoners. Look at the PCA graph. Mycenaeans cluster with Sicilians, not with mainland Greeks - who are ca. 1/4 more shifted in the direction of Russians.

    Why did you remove my satirical picture (Greek Nationalist's Dilemma)?:
    There is no dilemma in the Greek mindset. Where the Slavs in any way aristocrats in Medieval Greek society? Certainly not. The ones who settled lands of modern Greece were Hellenized, Christianized and thus absorbed into the Greek cultural mainframe. What makes you think that it would have been any different for possible earlier steppe related invasions in Greece?

    I can't imagine that this is an issue for the Greek nationalists as you say. Rather, it is an issue for Nordicist who insist that aristocracy in Greece somehow was Nordic, while all the evidence points to the opposite. Don't get me wrong. I can certainly imagine that steppe related invaders were rougher, and could have been more war-like etc. But they were certainly not more refined and baptized as aristocrats just for the sake of it. Some invasions could have been peaceful, some less so. But at the end of the day, they accepted the superior indigenous culture and were soon absorbed. Creating a slightly new blend with a little bit more steppe related admixture. All the rest is a delusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    More precisely an Illyrian tribe that later, perhaps, mixed with the Dorians came, maybe, from Dalmatia or Illyria in general...a migration from the North-West (of Greece) in the Sub-Mycanean period was detected even by the famous anthropologist J.L. Angel in Skeletal material from Attica
    I do not see it that way..............if you want to favour the scenario you present then one must agree also that vucedol culture was proto-illyrian as some have suggested, but consensus states that the origin of illyrians is basically noricum and as far south as istria.
    this leaves the question of who lived in modern croatia and bosnia in the bronze-age.
    To me the illyrian push going south reaching macedonia by the time of Phillip II would indicate that the illyrians could not have been direct neighbours of the macedonians before 400BC as they would have clashed earlier................note: no illyrian joined Phillip or alexander's armies
    The push going south ( beginning in the bronze-age could only have happened due to celtic pushing of illyrians in noricum ( which is why we see Halstatt as a celtic-illyrian mix ), the illyrian who where not absorbed into celtic society where moving south and must have pushed someone south of them. A scenario could be that these where dorians...............who in turn entered mycenean greece .
    Vucedol culture is the key .............was it proto-illyrian, proto-dorian or neither
    This is my theory
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Read Eupedia, first and let me know what you think, do you believe z2103 is Doric?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    I will answer. It isn't.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Z2103 is yet as it was, in the steppes, so it can't be trusted the IE expansion to it. Instead R1a is relied to EHG (all IE samples have it much or less) and they are related to the demuc expansion in Asia, the Indo-Iranian one. I see that Greek -polis is the same as Indic -pur. Both branches share a lot of cultural cases... where it's possible to look at the first IE cities? in Arkhaim
    Do you actually believe this stuff?


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Cato chi e l'autore di questo studio....perche non vedo il nome.....


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    from this book

    http://ita.calameo.com/read/000150262f61a760a117a

    I don't know if it's completely reliable, i don't know him but what he wrote seems plausible

    I do not see it that way..............if you want to favour the scenario you present then one must agree also that vucedol culture was proto-illyrian as some have suggested, but consensus states that the origin of illyrians is basically noricum and as far south as istria.
    this leaves the question of who lived in modern croatia and bosnia in the bronze-age.
    To me the illyrian push going south reaching macedonia by the time of Phillip II would indicate that the illyrians could not have been direct neighbours of the macedonians before 400BC as they would have clashed earlier................note: no illyrian joined Phillip or alexander's armies
    The push going south ( beginning in the bronze-age could only have happened due to celtic pushing of illyrians in noricum ( which is why we see Halstatt as a celtic-illyrian mix ), the illyrian who where not absorbed into celtic society where moving south and must have pushed someone south of them. A scenario could be that these where dorians...............who in turn entered mycenean greece .
    Vucedol culture is the key .............was it proto-illyrian, proto-dorian or neither
    This is my theory
    I don't know much about Yugoslavian archaeology but i believe that when Hallstatt Illyrians settled south encountered other Illyrians (may we can call them Southern Illyrians) maybe driving them south in Epirus where they intermingled with Dorians ?? (who knows)...i doubt that there were Greek tribes there in the north at that time.

    There are plenty of indications that Greece was being settled by other tribes from the North even in the Mycenean era and the Greek Dark Ages. This is what the authors of this research also have mentioned in the first place. It's just that some people wanted to baptize Mycenean Greeks as the Ancient (i.e Classical) Greeks in general. Surely the two were related. But there certainly may have been some differences.
    Every barbarian European wanted to live in Mycenaean Greece, it was the California of the times

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    Since everyone talks about Dorians, I believe they brought E-S2979 into Greece judging from the subclade's distribution (mainly in southern Greece as well as Albania, the Balkans and Central Europe)

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    The Greek way, that is to say the Greek civilization was the greatest in that area. It comes to me as a surprise to believe that some people reckon that a foreigner who was hellenized would keep the old, yet barbaric ways.
    "Cleaner ways don't win wars."
    Stannis Baratheon

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    One analogy might be the Goths in Italy. They weren't large enough as a group, imo, for them to have much impact on the genetics, but they had even less impact on the culture. Instead, they adopted not only the culture of the inhabitants in many areas, but even adopted their language, eventually discarding their own Germanic one. The Lombards probably had more effect, but even they dropped their language.

    This is a very recent review of the Gothic presence in Italy. I don't present it to de-rail the discussion into a discussion of Italy, but as an example of the kind of processes which are possible when a numerically and culturally "simpler" group invades a long settled and advanced culture:

    https://www.academia.edu/25092699/Go...gothic_Kingdom

    "Even those who hold that Goths lived largely among each other in regionalclusters, monopolized the military, and maintained their own cultural andpolitical identity still recognize that Gothic and Roman societies were in theprocess of merging in Italy. The mixed marriages of Brandila and Proculaand Patza and Regina have already been mentioned.������������ Various inscriptions andpapyri also attest to other unions between partners with barbarian and Romannames.������������ Certain individuals seem to have been known by both Roman andGothic names, and there are instances of parents with Gothic names givingtheir children Roman ones.������������ Classical learning was adopted by some of theGothic elite. Gothic geographers are attested in the
    Ravenna Cosmography
    .������������Theoderic’s nephew Theodahad was versed in Latin literature, Platonic phi-losophy, and ecclesiastical writings, and the king’s daughter Amalasuentha was ������������uent in Greek, Latin, and Gothic, and sought to provide her son Athalaric with a similar Roman education.������������ "

    People have to stop expecting every migration to be like that of Corded Ware to northern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ΠΑΝΑΞ View Post
    How much fun...


    But the true is that is not what "modern Greeks" bother about. I think they mostly have pride for their language mostly.
    An other think is the "slavic"genetic imput as mentioned, it profited us and not damaged us.
    It is interesting to see how other people (barbarians, Lol) consider about the Greeks.


    Hey it;s a catchy thread and running wild... Nice conversation guys, I wish to have more time, thanks.

    I like that dilemma

    But instead of only Slavs should say also Romans Aromani Arbanites Thracians
    so the creator must rewrite correct all the add-mixtures,

    some people are proud for nothing
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Do you actually believe this stuff?
    Of course, just quoting Pokorny:

    B. pel “castle” in O.Ind. pū́ r, gen. purás “castle, town, city”, pura- n., newer puri-, purī ds.,
    compare Singapur “Löwenstadt”, Gk. (Eol.) πόλις “castle, town, city, Staat” (*peli-s), Hom.
    Cypr. πτόλις ds., Lith. pilìs, Ltv. pile “castle, Schloß” (see Schwyzer, Gk. 1, 325, 344,
    Specht KZ 59, 65f., 11 f., Trautmann 217).
    from the same root Latin plenus and English full. The common meaning for 'town' is shared so once proto-Indoiranians and proto-Greeks dwelt in the same cities.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    IMO the key is to define where the Mycenaeans came from.

    Can't be that one Greek group came one way and an other one (name it Dorians etc) came from somewhere else. Can't happen.

    These groups should have lived in very very close proximity and popped out from the same civ, before entering Greece. Imagine at some point, even genetically, they should have been identical (with a normal variation between same groups).

    If not Bronze Age, then only some centuries earlier.

    So if the case is Balkans, then all these suppositions (Dorians from the "North" Mycenaeans from Vucedol etc etc) may turned out true.

    If the case is Anatolia/S. Armenia, we have to think elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I will answer. It isn't.
    Is there a logical reasoning behind your answer....I would like to understand your point of view.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For those interested in phenotypic data:

    The actual snp data is on page 59 of the Supplement.
    https://images.nature.com/full/natur...re23310-s1.pdf

    Attachment 8993

    "Present-day Europeans are almost fixed for the derived (light pigmentation) allele G atrs1426654, but the ancestral allele occurred in western European hunter-gatherers3,4. Werecord no copy of the ancestral allele in 9 individuals with at least one sequence. We alsoexamined the rs16891982 SNP in SLC45A2, the second strongest signal of selection inEuropeans discovered in a genome-wide scan3. The overall frequency of the C allele could beestimated as 24% (C.I.: 8-47%) in the Aegean Bronze Age. The frequency of the minor Callele in present-day Greeks is 14% (95% C.I.: 11-17%)5. The C allele has decreased infrequency in eastern Europe6 or Europe in general3 due to likely selection since the BronzeAge, but with the available data, the Bronze Age frequency is consistent with its modernprevalence."

    "Classic blond hair has been associated with the C allele in the rs12821256 SNP in KITLG9.We have reads covering this site in 11 individuals and do not detect the C allele."

    "The rs12913832 SNP in HERC2 is a major determinant of blue eye color in humans7. Thefrequency of the A allele could be estimated as 86% (C.I.: 64-98%) in the Bronze AgeAegean. The G allele was present in Anatolia since Neolithic times3and our results suggest itspresence in all studied Bronze Age groups at a low frequency."

    "These results suggest that ancient Bronze Age individuals from the Aegean and southwesternAnatolia had mostly dark (brown or black) hair and brown eyes. Blue eyes were uncommonas predicted by the lack of homozygotes for the G allele at rs12913832 which is the majorpredictor of this trait, however, this allele did occur in all studied populations (Table S4.1),thus the phenotype would have been uncommon but not unknown in the region. The browneye phenotype is still the most common in present-day Greeks occurring in ~3/4 of them, withthe remainder split between blue and intermediate shades1. Similarly, ~79% of present-dayGreeks have light or dark brown hair, with the remainder split between blond and black."

    So much for blonde-blue eyed Mycenaeans.

    I guess this reconstruction of the Mycenaean "Griffin warrior" may be pretty accurate, despite all the naysayers.


    This app is actually really interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    This app is actually really interesting.
    OMG lmao I never even heard of this app, I'm so trying this!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Is there a logical reasoning behind your answer....I would like to understand your point of view.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    There isn't any logical reasoning behind the point of view that it is Dorian. You consider facts things an internet persona writes on Eupedia. Present your arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    There isn't any logical reasoning behind the point of view that it is Dorian. You consider facts things an internet persona writes on Eupedia. Present your arguments.
    If you read my previous posts, I stated that this is an hypothesis....presented by Maciamo. I just wanted to consider the opposing arguments for this hypothesis since i have a vested interest on it.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    In my opinion so called Dorian invasion came from within Greece,you don't really need to look very north and imagine Nordic origin or Central European origin of the invaders,they most probably "invaded" from the region of Doris just north of Mycenae,Peloponesus.They replaced the old ruling elite and made themselves new masters,maybe similar like the Macedonians later.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    i'm of the same opinion, Dorians were just northern Greeks, originally, probably from Epirus. There are some chances that they absorbed a bit of Illyrian blood which could explain why classical Greeks where - probably - more northeners than Mycenaeans...other Northern genes came with the Slavs and so you have modern Greeks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    In my opinion so called Dorian invasion came from within Greece,you don't really need to look very north and imagine Nordic origin or Central European origin of the invaders,they most probably "invaded" from the region of Doris just north of Mycenae,Peloponesus.They replaced the old ruling elite and made themselves new masters,maybe similar like the Macedonians later.
    afaik they spoke a similar language
    is that correct?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Z2103 is yet as it was, in the steppes, so it can't be trusted the IE expansion to it. Instead R1a is relied to EHG (all IE samples have it much or less) and they are related to the demuc expansion in Asia, the Indo-Iranian one. I see that Greek -polis is the same as Indic -pur. Both branches share a lot of cultural cases... where it's possible to look at the first IE cities? in Arkhaim
    Without touching haplogroups, you raised an interesting discussion.
    It has long been known that similar bits and meander patterns were found in Sintashta-Andronovo and Mycenae. Also noticeable traces of horse breeding in Mycenaeus, which characteristic in general for the Indo-Iranians. Perhaps bits and meander came to Mycenae not from Sintashta, but from the Babyno culture (Multi-cordoned ware), which is possible associated with proto-greeks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-...d_ware_culture

    Also Arkaim is not considered a city in the classical sense, because there was no stratification of the population. But nevertheless, the polis theme of Indo-Iranians and Greeks finds parallels. As well as their mythology. Starting from centaurs / gandhavers to cerberus / carbaras.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003663/





    This one shows where the ancient Iranian, and Armenian populations are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    afaik they spoke a similar language
    is that correct?
    Yes, that's right. It's just one of the ancient Greek dialects.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_dialects

    What we see in Anatolia is the movement of Greek speakers from different parts of Greece. We can see the same thing in what they called "Magna Graecia" or Greater Greece, by which I think they meant "expanded Greece".



    The following, as to the "Doric migration", is obviously speculative.





    The only thing that will settle the questions is ancient dna, imo.

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