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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dov View Post
    Without touching haplogroups, you raised an interesting discussion.
    It has long been known that similar bits and meander patterns were found in Sintashta-Andronovo and Mycenae. Also noticeable traces of horse breeding in Mycenaeus, which characteristic in general for the Indo-Iranians. Perhaps bits and meander came to Mycenae not from Sintashta, but from the Babyno culture (Multi-cordoned ware), which is possible associated with proto-greeks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-...d_ware_culture

    Also Arkaim is not considered a city in the classical sense, because there was no stratification of the population. But nevertheless, the polis theme of Indo-Iranians and Greeks finds parallels. As well as their mythology. Starting from centaurs / gandhavers to cerberus / carbaras.
    As far as I have read and learnt, I also tend to believe that the Proto-Greeks were associated with the Babyno culture or perhaps even the Cotofeni (close enough to where Babyno culture would arise) or Vucedol, considering the increasing likeliness that the Proto-Greeks were from their beginning a largely EHG-admixed EEF-majority people who shifted to IE language and culture. That'd explain nicely the cultural links of Mycenaeans to northern cultures and also the relatively little impact of steppe-like component in Mycenaean Greece.

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    The myth of Heracleidae pretty much describes with good detail, if I may add, the movements of the Dorians. Indeed the Dorian migration was a movement of Greeks within Helladic space.
    "Cleaner ways don't win wars."
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    That image of the person of the archaic Greece that you guys show looks like Alexis Georgoulis, a Greek actor.

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    @Dov @Ygorbr
    The linking of steppe cultures to known IE branches in the south in not so easy as we need to count there with Anatolian, Greek, Armenian, Thracian and others... the Asiatic IE expansion is more easy to find out as it only involves a branch (Tocharian nobody knows from which planet they came and when).

    Moreover for the Greek-Iranic issue may be it was not different cultures but different economies: protogreeks farming and protoindoiranians herding and roaming around.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Minoan and Mycenean culture and people are percieved as different from each other.
    The later Mycenean culture is not derived from the Minoan culture.

    Yet the genetic difference is small :

    However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6, 7, 8, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1, 6, 9 or Armenia4, 9.

    Did these few EHG shape the Mycenean culture? Where they a small ruling elite?
    Well, they had charriots and swords ..

    btw, is there a way to go around the paywall?
    Yet not a single "Steppic" yDNA found among them. The only Steppic thing found among them was some little EHG (which could have came via the Caucasus anyways) and a female mtDNA.

    So either there was some J lineage among the Steppic cultures we don't know off yet, or Mycenian comes from a culture that is not located in the Steppes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    He looks like Nikos Kourkoulis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Yet not a single "Steppic" yDNA found among them. The only Steppic thing found among them was some little EHG (which could have came via the Caucasus anyways) and a female mtDNA.

    So either there was some J lineage among the Steppic cultures we don't know off yet, or Mycenian comes from a culture that is not located in the Steppes.
    maybe Maykop was haplo J as well, and maybe they spread IE to the steppe, and Anatolian branch never got to the steppe
    still, it does not explain why Mycenians spoke IE and had chariots, and Minoans did not and had not
    and Mycenian IE was not Anatolian

    I don't think these haplo J that spread bronze to Anatolia and the Levant spoke IE, otherwise there would be more IE in SW Asia today

    on the other hand .. why is there still so much Afroasiatic in SW Asia ?
    it looks like the incoming chalcolitic and bronze age J switched language in the Levant

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    He looks like Nikos Kourkoulis.
    I thought curly hair had African background.... Ev13


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    He looks like Nikos Kourkoulis.
    Holy crap. He does.




    First thing that came into my mind was Takis Tsoukalas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I thought curly hair had African background.... Ev13


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    in caucasos in some parts the curly hair is more than african grape style,

    all over J2 is expand curly hair is significant %
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    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

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    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

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    Xηπαναγης




    Αλεξανδρος ο Μεγας
    Αlexandros



    maybe Παριος



    what about Kokkotas?


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    Alexander looks like a Western European thick skull, soft lips, sharpy nose, long wavy hair.

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    These phenotypes have probably been in Greece for a very long time. Bad news for Nordicists and Fallmerayer types who say today's Greeks are little or nothing more than Hellenized Slavs, Albanians, Turks and others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @Dov @Ygorbr
    The linking of steppe cultures to known IE branches in the south in not so easy as we need to count there with Anatolian, Greek, Armenian, Thracian and others... the Asiatic IE expansion is more easy to find out as it only involves a branch (Tocharian nobody knows from which planet they came and when).

    Moreover for the Greek-Iranic issue may be it was not different cultures but different economies: protogreeks farming and protoindoiranians herding and roaming around.
    I'd assume none or few of these cultures had one exclusive language, but rather a dialect continuum of closely related dialects/languages. Linguistic diversity tended to be very big even within the same linguistic area in the past. For a rough comparison with another ancient pre-urban society, the Tupi-Guarani expansion in Brazil through a territory half as large as Europe is dated to the 1st millennium AD, but by the time the Portuguese came they were already speaking hundreds of different but similar Tupi-Guarani languages. So, considering that we don't have documents from Proto-Armenian and Proto-Daco-Thracian or Proto-Phrygian, I'd assume they were quite closely related to Proto-Greek and part of the same dialect continuum within one of those cultures or neighboring steppe-derived cultures. The case for Anatolian, though, remains a lot more complicated, and it also must take into account earlier cultures, not as late as 2,000 BC in the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Xηπαναγης




    Αλεξανδρος ο Μεγας
    Αlexandros



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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Alexander looks like a Western European thick skull, soft lips, sharpy nose, long wavy hair.
    oh really? since when? wavy hair is mark of West or North Europe?
    in fact if the mycenean reconstruction was brown and turn few anglle " his head I see much connectivity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    thank you Jovialis








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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    thank you Jovialis
    No problem. I would like to see what statues of other famous Greeks would like colored in too.

    Here's an avatar version I made.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    oh really? since when? wavy hair is mark of West or North Europe?
    in fact if the mycenean reconstruction was brown and turn few anglle " his head I see much connectivity
    Wasnt he blonde?

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    Physical appearance of Alexander

    Greek biographer Plutarch (c. 45–120 AD) describes Alexander's appearance as:

    ¹ The outward appearance of Alexander is best represented by the statues of him which Lysippus made, and it was by this artist alone that Alexander himself thought it fit that he should be modelled. ² For those peculiarities which many of his successors and friends afterwards tried to imitate, namely, the poise of the neck, which was bent slightly to the left, and the melting glance of his eyes, this artist has accurately observed. ³ Apelles, however, in painting him as wielder of the thunder-bolt, did not reproduce his complexion, but made it too dark and swarthy. Whereas he was of a fair colour, as they say, and his fairness passed into ruddiness on his breast particularly, and in his face. 4 Moreover, that a very pleasant odour exhaled from his skin and that there was a fragrance about his mouth and all his flesh, so that his garments were filled with it, this we have read in the Memoirs of Aristoxenus.
    pleasant odour exhaled from his skin and that there was a fragrance about his mouth and all his flesh?? isn't that a bit too idealized? I've never encountered anyone with that ability.

    Roman copy of a herma by Lysippos


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    No problem. I would like to see what statues of other famous Greeks would like colored in too.

    Here's an avatar version I made.
    Alexander



    Cleopatra


    I find the the above two quite accurate. I think the Mycenean face is too darkish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    These phenotypes have probably been in Greece for a very long time. Bad news for Nordicists and Fallmerayer types who say today's Greeks are little or nothing more than Hellenized Slavs, Albanians, Turks and others.
    This isn't so. For 2000 years there have been numerous migrations and invasions.
    This Ottoman success paved the way for Gazi Hüseyin Pasha, the local commander, to conquer the eastern half of the island, except for the fortress of Siteia. The Venetians and the local population suffered some grievous losses: it is estimated that by 1648, almost 40% of the Cretan population had perished of disease or warfare, and in 1677, the island's pre-war population of ca. 260,000 had dropped to about 80,000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Physical appearance of Alexander

    Greek biographer Plutarch (c. 45–120 AD) describes Alexander's appearance as:

    ¹ The outward appearance of Alexander is best represented by the statues of him which Lysippus made, and it was by this artist alone that Alexander himself thought it fit that he should be modelled. ² For those peculiarities which many of his successors and friends afterwards tried to imitate, namely, the poise of the neck, which was bent slightly to the left, and the melting glance of his eyes, this artist has accurately observed. ³ Apelles, however, in painting him as wielder of the thunder-bolt, did not reproduce his complexion, but made it too dark and swarthy. Whereas he was of a fair colour, as they say, and his fairness passed into ruddiness on his breast particularly, and in his face. 4 Moreover, that a very pleasant odour exhaled from his skin and that there was a fragrance about his mouth and all his flesh, so that his garments were filled with it, this we have read in the Memoirs of Aristoxenus.
    pleasant odour exhaled from his skin and that there was a fragrance about his mouth and all his flesh?? isn't that a bit too idealized? I've never encountered anyone with that ability.

    Roman copy of a herma by Lysippos


    According to Plutarch's accounts, Perhaps something a little more like this than?



    Nevertheless, I'm sure he could tan in the sun to be like the other version.

    Which is probably what he looked like when he was creating his empire. The sun can also lighten hair, which is probably why he has a few blonde streaks, in this battle depiction.


    Also, that fragrance thing sort of reminds me of Kim Jung Un would use for propaganda. Most likely, it was intended to lionize Alexander, even further in history.

    http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/...7d1a82a8ade25d

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Also, that fragrance thing sort of reminds me of Kim Jung Un would use for propaganda. Most likely, it was intended to lionize Alexander, even further in history.
    Don't compare Kim Jung Un with Alexander, please.

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