Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

This may be due to not understanding FST, but I find it interesting that Turkish Jews and Northwest Africans are among the populations that score the lowest with respect to the mycenaean and Minoan samples. Weirder still is Southern Italy's fst score being high enough to be on par with Scandinavians.

We don't need to delve into a long winded discussion about the genetic history of the aforementioned populations, a simple explaination all in one post would suffice.
 
Here is the PCA analysis from a study of modern Peloponnesians, Sicilians and Italians published earlier this year, by the author of this study. I like the study because it covers a lot of ground, geographically, from one end of the Peloponnese to the other. I wonder how these Greeks would plot in this study's PCA.

ejhg201718f2.jpg
 
Ancient texts that reference supernatural beings? Sounds like a legit reason to toss aside all reasonable scientific analysis.
 
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@Odysseus,
Take your racist ******** elsewhere

@Young,
I apologize for editing your post to remove the offensive material by Odysseus to which you were replying. It's obviously no reflection whatsoever on you.
 
I thought Odysseus was sarcastic .. maybe I'm just stupid LOL
 
man plz

why you call yourshelf Albanian?

as for Dorian descent, search all modern books,
not the Falmeraier ones as did your friend.

if you are tired to search on real kastrioti history family and alliances
at least read this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion

Yetos, I read on Euripedia that Dorians brought R1b Z2103, which is the same DNA as mine http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Anatolian

So it seems that I am Doric original after all....If DNA is the criteria of selection. So what do you think about this unaccepted turn of events.


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Yetos, I read on Euripedia that Dorians brought R1b Z2103, which is the same DNA as mine http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Anatolian

So it seems that I am Doric original after all....If DNA is the criteria of selection. So what do you think about this unaccepted turn of events.


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I read that too, and with all due respect to Maciamo, there is no reason to think the Dorians were different on the Y-haplogroup from other Greeks, because they spoke Greek? a different dialect but the same language, therefore they descend from the same culture as other Greeks, maybe they were just situated to the north relative to other Greek tribes.

An extreme view is that the Dorians descended from Hallstatt !!

late_bronze_age_europe.png
 
I read that too, and with all due respect to Maciamo, there is no reason to think the Dorians were different on the Y-haplogroup from other Greeks, because they spoke Greek? a different dialect but the same language, therefore they descend from the same culture as other Greeks, maybe they were just situated to the north relative to other Greek tribes.

An extreme view is that the Dorians descended from Hallstatt !!

late_bronze_age_europe.png

Man, please don't ruin my moment with Yetos it is on hypothetical level....originality has not been proven yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
In terms of yDna for these intrusive elements in general, someone has told me that Roy King, who wrote a paper on this topic, says that R1a Z93 is .6% in Mainland Greece and 1% in Crete.

Color me skeptical that the Greek language was brought by people who were primarily R1a. R1b Z2103 is a better bet, I think, and probably mixed with other lineages by the time they arrived.
 
In terms of yDna for these intrusive elements in general, someone has told me that Roy King, who wrote a paper on this topic, says that R1a Z93 is .6% in Mainland Greece and 1% in Crete.

Color me skeptical that the Greek language was brought by people who were primarily R1a. R1b Z2103 is a better bet, I think, and probably mixed with other lineages by the time they arrived.

R1b-Z2103 and E-V13, the first one was in Yamnaya so no question but the second is so young and so widespread in Greece and surroundings that it couldn't have increased in number if it wasn't the lineage of the proto-Hellenes, basically my argument is E-V13 people were so few before 2000BC, their expansion in numbers happened in the Hellenistic era of the Aegean, and not, for example, the Minoans or other previous peoples.
 
An extreme view is that the Dorians descended from Hallstatt !!

It has been suggested that Dorians were partly mixed with the Illyrians. The Dorian tribe of the Hylleis in particular may was an Illyrian tribe related to the Hylloi of central Dalmatia. Illyrians in turn mixed the Hallstatt folks from the north. If this was true then it can explain in part why Post-Mycenaeans Greeks were more "Northerners"

The Dorian homeland was likely located in Epirus, a region that bordered with Illyria
dorians.PNG
 
It has been suggested that Dorians were partly mixed with the Illyrians. The Dorian tribe of the Hylleis in particular may was an Illyrian tribe related to the Hylloi of central Dalmatia. Illyrians in turn mixed the Hallstatt folks from the north. If this was true then it can explain why Post-Mycenaeans Greeks were more "Northerners"

View attachment 9013

Sorry Cato, but I can't read Italian :( I'm currently in an early phase of learning it, baby steps.

I call upon Occam's razor to counter this claim, among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. They spoke Greek, they weren't different from other Greeks.
 
R1b-Z2103 and E-V13, the first one was in Yamnaya so no question but the second is so young and so widespread in Greece and surroundings that it couldn't have increased in number if it wasn't the lineage of the proto-Hellenes, basically my argument is E-V13 people were so few before 2000BC, their expansion in numbers happened in the Hellenistic era of the Aegean, and not, for example, the Minoans or other previous peoples.

It's certainly possible. We've known for a long time that E-V13 had a major expansion in the Bronze Age.
 
R1b-Z2103 and E-V13, the first one was in Yamnaya so no question but the second is so young and so widespread in Greece and surroundings that it couldn't have increased in number if it wasn't the lineage of the proto-Hellenes, basically my argument is E-V13 people were so few before 2000BC, their expansion in numbers happened in the Hellenistic era of the Aegean, and not, for example, the Minoans or other previous peoples.

I suppose you are well aware that the Hellenistic era is after Alexander. But Italy, Magna Graecia, the Balkans, Western Anatolia and other places were Greeks and Romans have left their footprint is full of it. So this haplogroup being spread only in the Hellenistic era seems a bit too late. However, around or after the Mycenean age seems more likely. Thessaly has very high rates of EV-13. More than other Greeks. It could be that some tribe picked it up, and spread it all over the Aegean as it went South, while others went North. But it doesn't explain that it was present in Italy as well. And Cretans relatively have far smaller rates of it than other Greeks. I would say that Minoans had none of it, Myceneans had some of it, and Dorians had a lot of it. If the Dorians were different from other Greeks to begin with.
 
In terms of yDna for these intrusive elements in general, someone has told me that Roy King, who wrote a paper on this topic, says that R1a Z93 is .6% in Mainland Greece and 1% in Crete.

Color me skeptical that the Greek language was brought by people who were primarily R1a. R1b Z2103 is a better bet, I think, and probably mixed with other lineages by the time they arrived.

Right now, I am beginning to doubt that any R1 people brought the Greek language. Wouldn't be surprised if the Minoans spoke an IE proto-Greek language. I mean, they had the more advanced civilization.

Phrygian was very similar to Greek. And Phrygians resided in Anatolia. Probably a people very much like Minoans.
 
In terms of yDna for these intrusive elements in general, someone has told me that Roy King, who wrote a paper on this topic, says that R1a Z93 is .6% in Mainland Greece and 1% in Crete.

Color me skeptical that the Greek language was brought by people who were primarily R1a. R1b Z2103 is a better bet, I think, and probably mixed with other lineages by the time they arrived.

Z2103 is yet as it was, in the steppes, so it can't be trusted the IE expansion to it. Instead R1a is relied to EHG (all IE samples have it much or less) and they are related to the demuc expansion in Asia, the Indo-Iranian one. I see that Greek -polis is the same as Indic -pur. Both branches share a lot of cultural cases... where it's possible to look at the first IE cities? in Arkhaim
 
I suppose you are well aware that the Hellenistic era is after Alexander. But Italy, Magna Graecia, the Balkans, Western Anatolia and other places were Greeks and Romans have left their footprint is full of it. So this haplogroup being spread only in the Hellenistic era seems a bit too late. However, around or after the Mycenean age seems more likely. Thessaly has very high rates of EV-13. More than other Greeks. It could be that some tribe picked it up, and spread it all over the Aegean as it went South, while others went North. But it doesn't explain that it was present in Italy as well. And Cretans relatively have far smaller rates of it than other Greeks. I would say that Minoans had none of it, Myceneans had some of it, and Dorians had a lot of it. If the Dorians were different from other Greeks to begin with.

Oh no, I meant by the Hellenic age from the coming of the proto-Hellenes (Myceneans?), I didn't mean the period after Alexander.

I should be more careful the next time.
 
Oh no, I meant by the Hellenic age from the coming of the proto-Hellenes (Myceneans?), I didn't mean the period after Alexander.

I should be more careful the next time.

Well, your supposition does make some sense at this point.
 

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