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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    This isn't so. For 2000 years there have been numerous migrations and invasions.
    This Ottoman success paved the way for Gazi Hüseyin Pasha, the local commander, to conquer the eastern half of the island, except for the fortress of Siteia. The Venetians and the local population suffered some grievous losses: it is estimated that by 1648, almost 40% of the Cretan population had perished of disease or warfare, and in 1677, the island's pre-war population of ca. 260,000 had dropped to about 80,000.
    @ihype02

    What does this have to do with what Raphieboy said? Or what the dna samples are telling us? What is not so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    These phenotypes have probably been in Greece for a very long time. Bad news for Nordicists and Fallmerayer types who say today's Greeks are little or nothing more than Hellenized Slavs, Albanians, Turks and others.

    EDIT:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33711-Genetics-of-the-Greek-Peleponessus/page19?p=516965&viewfull=1#post516965
    Last edited by Jovialis; 14-08-17 at 21:14.

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    Yetos:
    "but I said that the reconstructed Mycenean is not unusual in modern Greece"
    You are absolutely right! Most if not all of the Greeks in the pics you posted have a strong resemblance to the griffin warrior...some look close enough to him to be practically twins.

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    This thread will become one of the best. I can guarantee it. People are always curious about the origin of Ancient Greeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    I think this thread is on its way to achieving immortality.
    "Cleaner ways don't win wars."
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    What do you think about these results?:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post517212
    There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et1SkVldiHI

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    Very good and interesting paper, hopefully many more to come from the Ancient Greek world!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post

    as for Roma

    do you believe that he is Roma?
    I'm not sure, but yes I would think so, it is possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Great! Just as Azzurro and I had predicted! J1-Z1828 and J2a1-M319.

    G2a-CTS946 is G2a-P303, so typically Anatolian, be it from the Neolithic or Bronze Age. It's not possible to determine if it's a Neolithic remnant or a newcomer.
    Indeed! It feels good that our predictions were right, from a autosomal and Y relation perspective we are starting to see a correlation between J1 and J2 and the incoming of an Iran/Armenian/South Caucasus/Mesopotamian like admixture and it seems to be more male dominated similarly to R1b and R1a coming out of the Pontic Steppe. Like you said in an earlier post it is too bad that there were only a few samples as with more we might see the other predicted haplogroups from Kura Araxes Expansion. It also seems that Kura Araxes and potential Ubaid/Uruk expansion would have been autosomally very similar suggesting that J1 and J2 would have came from an earlier culture, very good candidate would be the Halaf Culture which both influenced the Shulaveru-Shomu Culture (predecessor of the the Kura Araxes Culture) and the Ubaid Culture. The predicted J2a1 and J1-Z1828 went to the Southern Caucasus and J1-P58 and J2b-M205 went to Ubaid Culture, with some of each in between, and T would have probably been there as well, with T-P77 heading to the Southern Caucasus. Also very good to see J2a appear the Mycenaeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I'm not sure, but yes I would think so, it is possible.
    To me, it seems the griffin warrior stepped into a time machine and is now a pro soccer player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    To me, it seems the griffin warrior stepped into a time machine and is now a pro soccer player.
    None of those faces are particularly Greek looking, least of all the complexion - wtf?

    I am not sure why suddenly, just 'cos of the pic of the alleged Mycenaean warrior, Greek nationalists on here want to claim that Patsatzoglu's face is "typical" Greek. It isn't, he does look a bit off and the Belgian dude on this thread, ironically, is right. This is not to say he looks Scandinavian ofc but I'd definitely not think he was Greek just from looking that one pic if I didn't know that already.

    But hey, all for the glory of trying to "prove" you're "Mycenaean".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boss View Post
    want to claim that Patsatzoglu's face is "typical" Greek
    I don't think that was Yetos's point (though I'm not sure what it exactly was either way) since Patsatzoglou has Roma origins anyway. But you're certainly right about the subjective interpretation of averages, what is typical or what resembles another not being particularly informative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    I don't think that was Yetos's point (though I'm not sure what it exactly was either way) since Patsatzoglou has Roma origins anyway. But you're certainly right about the subjective interpretation of averages, what is typical or what resembles another not being particularly informative.
    I don't either, I am not sure I have a strong grasp of Yetos's arcane way of typing.

    It seemed to me that he was saying that the Greek Mycenaean warrior pic represents a somewhat common phenotype among Greeks. Maybe it does but as far as I am concerned, I'd think he, the alleged Mycenaean, was native American or something close to that. But I'd definitely not go "oh yeah that's a Greek right there. I saw a smilar-looking one eating bougatsa with Yetos yesterday."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is something I don't understand in the admixture analysis from the paper. Modern Greeks from Thessaloniki are shown as having 20% of red EHG, 20% of pink CHG, 59% of blue ENF and 1% of dark green Natufian, but they completely lack the purple admixture that makes up 35-100% of Neolithic Greeks, 15-30% of Minoans and 25-45% of Mycenaeans. It's also missing from other modern Greeks and Cypriots. What happened to that admixture? It couldn't simply have vanished like that. Is that because they didn't re-run those samples using the same K17 parameters? If so that would be highly unprofessional of them for a published peer-reviewed paper. If not, that raises a lot of questions.
    I also disagree with Lazaridis and al. when they say that "Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry". Mycenaeans are much closer to the Minoans than to Modern Greeks. Modern Greeks have 3x more EHG (about 20%) than Mycenaeans (7%), but they also have WHG (3% according to D-stat). This suggests that numerous waves of European invaders (Dorians, Celts, Romans, Goths, Slavs) contributed to a large share of modern Greek DNA. Since obviously no invader to Greece were pure EHG, and none had more than 50% of EHG in average (30-35% might be more realistic as the Romans had comparatively low EHG), to increase from 7% to 20% of EHG, the percentage of post-Mycenaean DNA from European invaders must be comprised between 25% and 40%. Most of it will be blue ENF and pink CHG that won't be identifiable using these relatively simple admixtures. What we see is only the clear increase in EHG, which is only one third to half of the new invaders' DNA.
    In other words modern Greeks are nothing like Mycenaean Greeks, and even less Minoan Greeks. Modern Greeks have much more European ancestry. Y-DNA alone suggests 40 to 45% of European lineages (as opposed to Near Eastern), and over 60% if we included E-V13 (E1b1b came from the Near East but E-V13 clearly emerged in Europe). Greeks possess lineages that are clearly Germanic (3.5% of I1, so about 10% of Germanic overall with I2a2-L801, R1b-U106 and R1a-L664), Slavic (11% of R1a, which is overwhelmingly M458 and CTS1211) and Italo-Celtic (about 7% of R1b-U152 and 1% of G2a-L497).
    Indeed, very interesting.
    Last edited by Dionysus1900; 15-08-17 at 19:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It is what it is: whatever yDna the new group that moved into Greece carried, the impact was slight. The analysis in the Supplement is more than excellent, including a new statistical tool that hasn't even been formally released yet, but will soon make its way into Admixtools, I'm sure. The data was analyzed in every possible way. It has to be read carefully. The "steppe" impact was 4-16% or 13-18% depending on the method used. That makes sense because wherever the origin, there would have been dilution all along the way.

    The modern Greeks have steppe ancestry of about 20%, and that's in more northern areas. What huge impact did the Slavs have? How does this invalidate the argument for continuity?

    Surely we don't have to go over again how yDna is not a reliable predictor of total ancestry? Nor should we have to keep saying again and again that without ancient dna it's all just speculation.

    As I elaborated upon above, the impact of the steppe people is going to be very different when encountering a densely populated, culturally advanced area than when reaching large un-or-depopulated areas.

    .
    ^ This as I wrote quite some time ago. I have been reading quite allot of times that in ancient sources Mycenaens have been described to have expanded in oversizing the local numbers.

    About the West Iranic tribes , aka proto Medes it is said by ancient Near Eastern sources. That they were normal herders/farmers who came in search for new grasslands. But they were known and respected as the best horse-breeders of the region.

    The main reason why parts of North/Northeast Europe have more Steppe admixture is basically because these region were less populated. The further South you went (starting from the Bell Beaker regions) the admixture became lower to only ~15% among Mycenaens.

    They must have brought advantage to some regions such as the Mitanni/Medes with their horse-breeding skills and their well equipped charriots. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to establish themselves in already settled cultures. But Elite Dominance inspite of findings of yDNA J, G in Mycenaens, Zoroastrians and Sarmatians?

    Maybe in sparsely populated areas of Northeast Europe yes. But in the South it looked more like a blend of two meeting cultures.
    Last edited by Alan; 15-08-17 at 18:51.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    This thread should be about the genetic origins of Mycenaean Hellenes, not some pseudo scientific humbug about Greek football players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    This thread should be about the genetic origins of Mycenaean Hellenes, not some pseudo scientific humbug about Greek football players.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmXVwEWLwm0

    http://faces.cs.princeton.edu/

    Also, using photographs as archetypes of ethnicity or race is not reliable due to lighting and perspective distortion.

    It's fun to guess ethnicity, and stuff; but it's by no means scientific or accurate based on the photo.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 15-08-17 at 21:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    ^ This as I wrote quite some time ago. I have been reading quite allot of times that in ancient sources Mycenaens have been described to have expanded in oversizing the local numbers.

    About the West Iranic tribes , aka proto Medes it is said by ancient Near Eastern sources. That they were normal herders/farmers who came in search for new grasslands. But they were known and respected as the best horse-breeders of the region.

    The main reason why parts of North/Northeast Europe have more Steppe admixture is basically because these region were less populated. The further South you went (starting from the Bell Beaker regions) the admixture became lower to only ~15% among Mycenaens.

    They must have brought advantage to some regions such as the Mitanni/Medes with their horse-breeding skills and their well equipped charriots. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to establish themselves in already settled cultures. But Elite Dominance inspite of findings of yDNA J, G in Mycenaens, Zoroastrians and Sarmatians?

    Maybe in sparsely populated areas of Northeast Europe yes. But in the South it looked more like a blend of two meeting cultures.
    Alan West Iranian maybe are not only the Medes,
    Colchis/Laz/Rize, was always my secret believe, although till today is connected more with Hettits, another is Cappadokia, maybe should be a mixing border, instead of an iron curtain

    Anyway, if we take the oposite the Anatolian Hypothesis fits better,

    All I knew and were strongly documented by Archaiologists seems to 'buff' smoke on the water

    the problem is
    could a [email protected] change the language?
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    This thread should be about the genetic origins of Mycenaean Hellenes, not some pseudo scientific humbug about Greek football players.
    it is simple,

    the reconstructed Mycenean is not considered 'typical beauty' of what most of us believe.
    yet that look is not strange in Greece, geting out for a walk you would see enough, to say, that this not allien look in Greece
    and that was the whole meaning of photos
    Last edited by Yetos; 16-08-17 at 12:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    This thread should be about the genetic origins of Mycenaean Hellenes, not some pseudo scientific humbug about Greek football players.
    well said and honest
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    it is simple,

    the reconstructed Mycenean is not considered 'typical beauty' of what most of us believe.
    yet that look is not strange in Greece, geting out for a walk you would see enough to say, that this not allien look in Greece
    and that was the whole meaning of photos
    I second that.

    Nobody said that the Mycenaean reconstructed face is the most prevalent look nowydays in Greece. It's not.

    But if you see someone like him somewhere in Greece, you don't have second thoughts of what language you should speak to him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakattack View Post
    I second that.

    Nobody said that the Mycenaean reconstructed face is the most prevalent look nowydays in Greece. It's not.

    But if you see someone like him somewhere in Greece, you don't have second thoughts of what language you should speak to him.

    Sent from my Robin using Tapatalk
    The face shape could be Greek. Not typical, but it could. It's just that the complexion and the hair type certainly is not Greek. But these 'artists' have no way of knowing what the complexion or hair type actually was. For all we know that particular Mycenean warrior had blonde hair and blue eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The face shape could be Greek. Not typical, but it could. It's just that the complexion and the hair type certainly is not Greek. But these 'artists' have no way of knowing what the complexion or hair type actually was. For all we know that particular Mycenean warrior had blonde hair and blue eyes.
    For all we know, the Mycenaeans were quite similar to the Minoans and this face reconstruction is the best picture we have.
    Complexion and hair included.

    Don't know where you live and you find "certainly not Greek" the curly hair and this darkish complexion. I have my father in law next to me right now (half "old Greek", have Cycladic islander) and I can assure you he has pretty curly hair and his skin is kinda olive color.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakattack View Post
    For all we know, the Mycenaeans were quite similar to the Minoans and this face reconstruction is the best picture we have.
    Complexion and hair included.

    Don't know where you live and you find "certainly not Greek" the curly hair and this darkish complexion. I have my father in law next to me right now (half "old Greek", have Cycladic islander) and I can assure you he has pretty curly hair and his skin is kinda olive color.

    Sent from my Robin using Tapatalk
    I'm very sceptical about any reconstruction of prehistoric people
    it's always an artists interpretation, and often also imagination

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakattack View Post
    For all we know, the Mycenaeans were quite similar to the Minoans and this face reconstruction is the best picture we have.
    Complexion and hair included.
    Who said that the Minoans looked like that reconstruction? The complexity is more similar to that of an Indian. BTW, what do you mean by 'old Greek'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Who said that the Minoans looked like that reconstruction? The complexity is more similar to that of an Indian. BTW, what do you mean by 'old Greek'?
    The grave was discovered last year by Jack L. Davis and Sharon R. Stocker, a husband-and-wife team at the University of Cincinnati, and is judged by other archaeologists to be one of the richest tombs to have been found in Greece in the last half-century. The warrior was buried around 1450 B.C., a date derived from pottery found around the grave. His facial appearance has been reconstructed from his skull by Lynne Schepartz and Tobias Houlton of the University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg.

    Source
    Here's information on where the reconstruction was created.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here's information on where the reconstruction was created.
    so, only the shape of his skull, no phenotype DNA genes?
    colour of his skin, hair and eyes?
    flat or curly hair, or no hair at all?

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