Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Sile]

It has been suggested that Dorians were partly mixed with the Illyrians. The Dorian tribe of the Hylleis in particular may was an Illyrian tribe related to the Hylloi of central Dalmatia. Illyrians in turn mixed the Hallstatt folks from the north. If this was true then it can explain in part why Post-Mycenaeans Greeks were more "Northerners"
The Dorian homeland was likely located in Epirus, a region that bordered with Illyria
View attachment 9013

I agree
I have been stating that illyrians originate around noricum ( east austria ) and modern eastern slovenia for a long time.
and yes these illyrians are part of celtic Halstatt
I never heard of the dorians in Dalmatia, but always wanted to know who the illyrians pushed south as they moved south from noricum

 

[Milan.M]

Phrygian was very similar to Greek. And Phrygians resided in Anatolia. Probably a people very much like Minoans.

Phrygians resided in Macedonia prior migrating to Anatolia,the garden of Phrygian king Midas with his golden touch was in the feet of Mount Bermion where Macedonian elite later will emerge.
I would even assume Phrygian to be close to ancient Macedonian but we know very little of both languages so we can't say anything apart that they dwelled on same teritory according to ancient sources,the gardens of Midas the "Mygdonian king" the Phrygian "Mygdon" the region "Mygdonia" and later Makedonia bear some similarities to me.Some made Armenians to be Phrygians or closely related but in my opinion this two languages are not similar at all,also some attested Phrygian words are totally lacking of Greek language,only some shared features.

The Phrygians were advanced people even in Anatolia they had their alphabet,prosperous cities etc

 

[Yetos]

should they look like 3-6 ka IE steppe people?

are you expecting young people look like the Tocharian or Altai mummies?

 

[Yetos]

Indeed. I don't see how we amateurs can pick one scenario over another when the researchers, after extensive statistical modeling, aren't sure. We need the long awaited dna from the Caucasus, as well as testing of more proximate populations from the Balkans and Anatolia.

Unfortunately, linguistics can only tell us so much, because there's no gene for languages that we can track through ancient dna. It's all supposition. Knowing that Armenian is close to Greek won't give us the answers. All it tells us is that the people who spoke those precursors of the Indo-European languages at one time lived in proximity to one another. They could both have traveled down through the Balkans on route to their ultimate destinations as many linguists have believed, they could both have moved from eastern Anatolia (after moving down through the Caucasus), or they could have split and gone in different directions.

It's too early to come to conclusions, in my opinion.

The Kalash, Afghans, etc. are probably at most half steppe; the remainder is local ancestry, so obviously, no, they're not good proxies.

ok I accept that partially Kallash have more Indian
But Afganistan?

and who is steppe?
khazaks Uzbeks Turkmen?

Don't tell me Samara

 

[Ygorbr]

Right now, I am beginning to doubt that any R1 people brought the Greek language. Wouldn't be surprised if the Minoans spoke an IE proto-Greek language. I mean, they had the more advanced civilization.

Phrygian was very similar to Greek. And Phrygians resided in Anatolia. Probably a people very much like Minoans.

That could happen, a J2-majority or another people shifting to an IE language somewhere in Anatolia or northern Balkans and then bringing it to the Aegean, but I still find it unlikely. That hypothesis wouldn't explain why IE languages always seem to have appeared in any European region when at least EHG (and mostly EHG+CHG) admixtures increase in relation to EEF. Also, Minoans still look very heavy in Neolithic EEF, which was certainly pre-IE. Besides, that wouldn't quite explain why Linear B could be identified as Greek (and it was used only by Mycenaeans), but Linear A used by Minoans could never be identified as Proto-Greek or even another similar IE language. And the fact that there was a non-IE language, Eteocretan, spoken after the demise of the Minoan civilization in Crete seems to suggest that it was a remnant substrate of an ancient linguistic landscape that was overrun by Greek dialects.

 

[IronSide]

Phrygians resided in Macedonia prior migrating to Anatolia,the garden of Phrygian king Midas with his golden touch was in the feet of Mount Bermion where Macedonian elite later will emerge.
I would even assume Phrygian to be close to ancient Macedonian but we know very little of both languages so we can't say anything apart that they dwelled on same teritory according to ancient sources,the gardens of Midas the "Mygdonian king" the Phrygian "Mygdon" the region "Mygdonia" and later Makedonia bear some similarities to me.Some made Armenians to be Phrygians or closely related but in my opinion this two languages are not similar at all,also some attested Phrygian words are totally lacking of Greek language,only some shared features.

The Phrygians were advanced people even in Anatolia they had their alphabet,prosperous cities etc

Is there any chance that the Phrygians didn't migrate from Europe? now I know that this is very controversial, I should start a thread discussing this some day, but for now, a quote from this book (The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe Ca. 1200 B.C.):

Although many historians continue to believe in a Phrygian migrationfrom Europe to Asia Minor ca. 1200 B.C, the idea has been generally
abandoned by Anatolian archaeologists. Maspero's Phrygian migration
was widely accepted when excavations first showed that Hattusas, Alishar,
and other Hittite sites were destroyed ca. 1200. Eventually, however, it
became clear that at none of the Hittite was there any evidence for
newcomers after the destruction. As a result, by the 1960s Hittitologists
were generally agreed that no "new people" had brought down the Hittite
empire. The history of western Anatolia is less clear, but the evidence that
has been advanced for a new population there is exiguous. A few shreds of
"barbarian ware" have been found at Troy (VIIb2) and at Gordium, but
the shreds are too few and too late to serve as an argument that a Phrygian
invasion from the Balkans was reponsible for the Catastrophe in western
Anatolia. At most, the shreds may indicate--as Kenneth Sams has
argued--that in the aftermath of the Catastrophe immigrants from Europe
squatted in the ruins of Troy. After his last review of the pottery from the
period, even Schachermeyr abandoned the idea that it was a Phrygian
migration from Europe that set "the sea peoples" in motion. The lack of
archaelogical support for a Phrygian migration from Europe ca. 1200 is
hardly surprising since, as noted previously, Maspero's thesis rested
entirely on statements by two Greek authors of the fifth century. Analysis will
show that the statements in question--one from Herodutos and one from
the Lydiaka of Xanthus--have no value as evidence for Bronze Age history.
Contradicting the earlier Greek view that the Phrygians had "always"
lived in Phrygia, the texts seem to have been occasioned by a late fifth-
century controvercy about the identity of the legendary king Midas.
Although we can be quite certain that "the Phrygian migration from Europe"
was first postulated in the age of Pericles, Maspero assumed that it
was a fact, faithfully transmitted from the thirteenth century to
Herodotus's and Xanthus's own day. and on this "fact" he based his "Phrygian
migration from Europe" shortly before the reign of Ramesses III. There is
no reason to doubt that the Phrygian language spoken in western Anatolia
during the Iron age was descended from a proto-Phrygian spoken there in
the late Bronze Age.

The Kingdom of Hayassa existed from 1500 to 1290 BC to the east of the Hittite Empire had very interesting kings and chiefs names, like Midas and Karranis, Midas was a common name in the royal house of Phrygia, and Karranis is comparable to Caranus, a legendary king of Macedonia.

 

[Yetos]

That could happen, a J2-majority or another people shifting to an IE language somewhere in Anatolia or northern Balkans and then bringing it to the Aegean, but I still find it unlikely. That hypothesis wouldn't explain why IE languages always seem to have appeared in any European region when at least EHG (and mostly EHG+CHG) admixtures increase in relation to EEF. Also, Minoans still look very heavy in Neolithic EEF, which was certainly pre-IE. Besides, that wouldn't quite explain why Linear B could be identified as Greek (and it was used only by Mycenaeans), but Linear A used by Minoans could never be identified as Proto-Greek or even another similar IE language. And the fact that there was a non-IE language, Eteocretan, spoken after the demise of the Minoan civilization in Crete seems to suggest that it was a remnant substrate of an ancient linguistic landscape that was overrun by Greek dialects.

Ygor the p[roblem is not Linear A
neither the 2 lost tablets of WW2

the problem is Kydoneans and eteo-Cretans,

If Kydoneians = Minoans then might be IE
if Eteo-Cretans = Minoans then surely not IE
that is the problem from Homers time,

I mention in previous post in the thread

 

[Yetos]

Is there any chance that the Phrygians didn't migrate from Europe? now I know that this is very controversial, I should start a thread discussing this some day, but for now, a quote from this book (The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe Ca. 1200 B.C.):


The Kingdom of Hayassa existed from 1500 to 1290 BC to the east of the Hittite Empire had very interesting kings and chiefs names, like Midas and Karranis, Midas was a common name in the royal house of Phrygia, and Karranis is comparable to Caranus, a legendary king of Macedonia.

Alexander and Gordium
Brygians are the Mygdonians by history

 

[Yetos]

Yetos, I read on Euripedia that Dorians brought R1b Z2103, which is the same DNA as mine http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Anatolian

So it seems that I am Doric original after all....If DNA is the criteria of selection. So what do you think about this unaccepted turn of events.
Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

what unaccepted? what criteria? what events? what Doric?
First make up your mind what you are, and not what you would like to be.

 

[IronSide]

Sorry if I'm flooding the place with quotes, this is the last time I promise.

Honestly, I don't remember where I found this, I think it was Armenian perspectives, maybe

And here rises another problem: who precisely lived in Hayasa-Azzi? In my opinion,the recent work of G.Jahukian on toponomastic data are of some value. He
concludes that the population of this political unity was in all probability not
homogenous but consisted instead of unidentified Anatolian, Thracian as well as
Armenian ethnic elements. Furthermore, Jahoukian proposes that those IE stems of
Armenian which were not borrowed directly from the original IE language must have
from these languages of Hayasa-Azzi.to this argument we may add the
name of Mita, ruler of Pahuwa, the Hayasean land, who is attested in the redated
Hittite text of the 15th century BC -- he bears the same name as the famous king of
the Mushku-Phrygia.


One may note also the visible traces of Phrygian-Thracian toponyms in south-western
and north eastern parts of the Armenian Highland, as noted by S.Petrosian and H.Karageozian
, leading to a general conclusion that Phrygian-Thracian ethnic groups were present
in the Armenian Highland at least before the fall of the Hittite Empire. Furthermore, their
joint residence in the Upper Euphrates valley can be taken as a weighty
argument for the interpretation of Herodotus and Eudoxus's passages about a close Armenian-Phrygian
relationship. In my view, this relationship (the Phrygianization of the Armenians in language, dress and weapons)
stemmed from those times when the Mushku still lived in the Upper
Euphrates valley-- in thye neighbourhood of the Urumu-Armenians.


That events developed in this way finds support in archaelogical
data from Gordion, the capital city of Phrygia. Here, side by
side with western Anatolian data, eastern Anatolian artefacts
, namely from Malatya and even from the Iranian plateaux
, are well traced. The eastern element consists of highly
developed metallurgy, animal-shaped monochrome pottery and
other objects of Oriental origin.


M. Mellink has called this type an "Orientalizing art of Gordion"
-- this culture is well traced at Gordion in the ninth-eigth centuries BC,
leading to the conclusion that it was the Mushku tribes of the
Upper Euphrates valley who formed the people who created
this Gordion orientalizing style. It is worth noting that
Movses Khorenatsi too was informed about these close Armenian-Mushku
contacts when he describes the deeds of the legendary King
Aram and his expedition towards the west, where he appointed
Mshak as ruler of Kesaria (= Arm. Mazak)

 

[Milan.M]

Is there any chance that the Phrygians didn't migrate from Europe? now I know that this is very controversial, I should start a thread discussing this some day, but for now, a quote from this book (The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe Ca. 1200 B.C.):


The Kingdom of Hayassa existed from 1500 to 1290 BC to the east of the Hittite Empire had very interesting kings and chiefs names, like Midas and Karranis, Midas was a common name in the royal house of Phrygia, and Karranis is comparable to Caranus, a legendary king of Macedonia.

From where is this quote?

Although many historians continue to believe in a Phrygian migrationfrom Europe to Asia Minor ca. 1200 B.C, the idea has been generally
abandoned by Anatolian archaeologists. Maspero's Phrygian migration
was widely accepted when excavations first showed that Hattusas, Alishar,
and other Hittite sites were destroyed ca. 1200. Eventually, however, it
became clear that at none of the Hittite was there any evidence for
newcomers after the destruction. As a result, by the 1960s Hittitologists
were generally agreed that no "new people" had brought down the Hittite
empire. The history of western Anatolia is less clear, but the evidence that
has been advanced for a new population there is exiguous. A few shreds of
"barbarian ware" have been found at Troy (VIIb2) and at Gordium, but
the shreds are too few and too late to serve as an argument that a Phrygian
invasion from the Balkans was reponsible for the Catastrophe in western
Anatolia. At most, the shreds may indicate--as Kenneth Sams has
argued--that in the aftermath of the Catastrophe immigrants from Europe
squatted in the ruins of Troy. After his last review of the pottery from the
period, even Schachermeyr abandoned the idea that it was a Phrygian
migration from Europe that set "the sea peoples" in motion. The lack of
archaelogical support for a Phrygian migration from Europe ca. 1200 is
hardly surprising since, as noted previously, Maspero's thesis rested
entirely on statements by two Greek authors of the fifth century. Analysis will
show that the statements in question--one from Herodutos and one from
the Lydiaka of Xanthus--have no value as evidence for Bronze Age history.
Contradicting the earlier Greek view that the Phrygians had "always"
lived in Phrygia, the texts seem to have been occasioned by a late fifth-
century controvercy about the identity of the legendary king Midas.
Although we can be quite certain that "the Phrygian migration from Europe"
was first postulated in the age of Pericles, Maspero assumed that it
was a fact, faithfully transmitted from the thirteenth century to
Herodotus's and Xanthus's own day. and on this "fact" he based his "Phrygian
migration from Europe" shortly before the reign of Ramesses III. There is
no reason to doubt that the Phrygian language spoken in western Anatolia
during the Iron age was descended from a proto-Phrygian spoken there in
the late Bronze Age.

Based on Herodotus and Macedonians themselves the Phrygians were called Bryges while living in Europe (Macedonia) and later migrated in Anatolia.If one question such migration the entire geography of Troj and Trojan war should be questioned in my opinion,Mygdon of Phrygia migrated there shortly before Trojan war i think so,A part of the Phrygians are said to have been called after him Mygdonians,since we have Dardania in Europe,Dardanelles in Anatolia,Phrygians in Europe,Phrygians in Anatolia,Mysians in Anatolia,Moesians in Europe.

I doubt we can challenge written history.Maybe only genetic testing from different epochs can confirm this.

 

[blevins13]

what unaccepted? what criteria? what events? what Doric?
First make up your mind what you are, and not what you would like to be.

Read Eupedia, first and let me know what you think, do you believe z2103 is Doric?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Milan.M]

Also, Minoans still look very heavy in Neolithic EEF, which was certainly pre-IE. Besides, that wouldn't quite explain why Linear B could be identified as Greek (and it was used only by Mycenaeans), but Linear A used by Minoans could never be identified as Proto-Greek or even another similar IE language. And the fact that there was a non-IE language, Eteocretan, spoken after the demise of the Minoan civilization in Crete seems to suggest that it was a remnant substrate of an ancient linguistic landscape that was overrun by Greek dialects.

In Crete in my opinion people of different origins lived,since it was trading center you could have find traders from "elsewhere",like in the island of Samothrace for example,which in myth is connected to Cadmus,man that brought alphabet to Greece,there lived Greeks,Thracians,Pelasgians,Phoenicans etc.
The Linear A is undeciphered yet i guess so.

 

[Yetos]

Read Eupedia, first and let me know what you think, do you believe z2103 is Doric?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

your post and your game smells badly,

and I ask,
did you decide what you are and what you would like to be?

 

[Dianatomia]

In Crete in my opinion people of different origins lived,since it was trading center you could have find traders from "elsewhere",like in the island of Samothrace for example,which in myth is connected to Cadmus,man that brought alphabet to Greece,there lived Greeks,Thracians,Pelasgians,Phoenicans etc.
The Linear A is undeciphered yet i guess so.

The DNA of the remains suggests that Minoans were genetically similar to each other. They even were genetically quite similar to the Myceneans in the Southern mainland. This doesn't suggest a multicultural society.

 

[Milan.M]

The DNA of the remains suggests that Minoans were genetically similar to each other. They even were genetically quite similar to the Myceneans in the Southern mainland. This doesn't suggest a multicultural society.

Here is some quotes of Greek authors;

There is a land called Crete in the midst of the wine-blue sea,a beautiful and fertile land, seagirt; in it are manypeople, innumerable, and there are ninety cities.Language with language is mingled together. There are Akhaians,there are great-hearted Eteocretans, there are Kydones,and Dorians in their three clans, and noble Pelasgians

Of them [the peoples in the above passage] Staphylos says that the Dorians occupy the region towards the east, the Kydones the western part, the Eteocretans the southern, whose town is Prasos, where the temple of Diktaian Zeus is; and that the Eteocretans and Kydones are probably indigenous, but the others incomers

Maybe even the kingdom of Candia doesn't existed a Venetian trading center on Crete in middle ages? that does not imply there wasn't any Greeks but ruling elite,the traders were Venetians,and in Minoan time we can know much less.
Entire Balkans is similar genetically a land much waste than island of Crete yet we are multicultural,Balkans always was multiculural if you are reffering to language.

 

[blevins13]

your post and your game smells badly,

and I ask,
did you decide what you are and what you would like to be?

Yetos why you turn it personal, it is no a matter of decision...., it is a simple question, your opinion is valuable since you know a lot about Greek history, as I said my DNA turn z2103 and I am asking you, do you think is Doric....? My nationality is Albanian in the process of becoming Us Citizens since you need this answer very badly. Ignore this post if it smells badly to you.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[IronSide]

From where is this quote?

Based on Herodotus and Macedonians themselves the Phrygians were called Bryges while living in Europe (Macedonia) and later migrated in Anatolia.If one question such migration the entire geography of Troj and Trojan war should be questioned in my opinion,Mygdon of Phrygia migrated there shortly before Trojan war i think so,A part of the Phrygians are said to have been called after him Mygdonians,since we have Dardania in Europe,Dardanelles in Anatolia,Phrygians in Europe,Phrygians in Anatolia,Mysians in Anatolia,Moesians in Europe.

I doubt we can challenge written history.Maybe only genetic testing from different epochs can confirm this.

The quote is from this book The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe Ca. 1200 B.C.
https://books.google.com.sa/books/about/The_End_of_the_Bronze_Age.html?id=bFpK6aXEWN8C&redir_esc=y page 65

Couldn't all of these peoples migrated from Anatolia to Europe?

 

[davef]

There is something I don't understand in the admixture analysis from the paper. Modern Greeks from Thessaloniki are shown as having 20% of red EHG, 20% of pink CHG, 59% of blue ENF and 1% of dark green Natufian, but they completely lack the purple admixture that makes up 35-100% of Neolithic Greeks, 15-30% of Minoans and 25-45% of Mycenaeans. It's also missing from other modern Greeks and Cypriots. What happened to that admixture? It couldn't simply have vanished like that. Is that because they didn't re-run those samples using the same K17 parameters? If so that would be highly unprofessional of them for a published peer-reviewed paper. If not, that raises a lot of questions.

I also disagree with Lazaridis and al. when they say that "Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry". Mycenaeans are much closer to the Minoans than to Modern Greeks. Modern Greeks have 3x more EHG (about 20%) than Mycenaeans (7%), but they also have WHG (3% according to D-stat). This suggests that numerous waves of European invaders (Dorians, Celts, Romans, Goths, Slavs) contributed to a large share of modern Greek DNA. Since obviously no invader to Greece were pure EHG, and none had more than 50% of EHG in average (30-35% might be more realistic as the Romans had comparatively low EHG), to increase from 7% to 20% of EHG, the percentage of post-Mycenaean DNA from European invaders must be comprised between 25% and 40%. Most of it will be blue ENF and pink CHG that won't be identifiable using these relatively simple admixtures. What we see is only the clear increase in EHG, which is only one third to half of the new invaders' DNA.

In other words modern Greeks are nothing like Mycenaean Greeks, and even less Minoan Greeks. Modern Greeks have much more European ancestry. Y-DNA alone suggests 40 to 45% of European lineages (as opposed to Near Eastern), and over 60% if we included E-V13 (E1b1b came from the Near East but E-V13 clearly emerged in Europe). Greeks possess lineages that are clearly Germanic (3.5% of I1, so about 10% of Germanic overall with I2a2-L801, R1b-U106 and R1a-L664), Slavic (11% of R1a, which is overwhelmingly M458 and CTS1211) and Italo-Celtic (about 7% of R1b-U152 and 1% of G2a-L497).

I think if you notice, the modern greek samples resemble Minoan Lashi more with a little extra Natufian for the cypriots and extra Steppe for the Coriels and the Thessalonikis. Does anyone else find this interesting?

Note: I'm not flat out saying that modern Greeks have no Mycenaean ancestry. Let's keep this professional.

 

[Ygorbr]

Here is some quotes of Greek authors;

Those Greek authors were speaking from the point of view of post-Minoan, post-Mycenaean Crete (Odysseus' narratives were most likely written in the late Dark Ages of Greece, transitioning toward Classical Greece). We know for sure that two of those foreign elements, Akhaians and Dorians, were IE tribes arrived from mainland Greece. Eteocretans, who were probably a minority in Classical times, were called "true Cretans", "original Cretans" or something like that, and I don't think that must be only a coincidence in that they weren't IE speakers and were named "true Cretans".