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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Well if we knew more about the method they used. For me the most weird thing about it is the space between the eyes, and maybe the space between the nose and lips or the shape of the lips. Today wavy brown hair are more common.

    Concerning pigmentation, he doesn't seem that dark to me.

    I have a grandmother from there (near Pylos) who is much lighter but the people of the village probably have ancestry from Franks and Latins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Who said that the Minoans looked like that reconstruction? The complexity is more similar to that of an Indian. BTW, what do you mean by 'old Greek'?
    Nobody, but we know that Minoans where quite similar with the Mycenaeans and a little more Southern shifted.

    Old Greece, I mean Sterea Ellada. In his case is Fthiotis.

    The pigmentation is not that of an Indian, come on... Not even close, at least in my eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    so, only the shape of his skull, no phenotype DNA genes?
    colour of his skin, hair and eyes?
    flat or curly hair, or no hair at all?
    "These results suggest that ancient Bronze Age individuals from the Aegean and southwesternAnatolia had mostly dark (brown or black) hair and brown eyes. Blue eyes were uncommonas predicted by the lack of homozygotes for the G allele at rs12913832 which is the majorpredictor of this trait, however, this allele did occur in all studied populations (Table S4.1),thus the phenotype would have been uncommon but not unknown in the region. The browneye phenotype is still the most common in present-day Greeks occurring in ~3/4 of them, withthe remainder split between blue and intermediate shades1. Similarly, ~79% of present-dayGreeks have light or dark brown hair, with the remainder split between blond and black."

    Post #2
    Well, I suppose there's a very small chance he could have had light eyes and/or hair. But odds are his eyes and hair were brown, based on what this study has told us about the Myceaneans.

    His hair texture could have been straight or curly. idk

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    Phenotypically the Mycaenean image resembles a Dodecanese Islander particularly those from Kalymnos. I grew up around several and was stricken by their pronounced features.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm
    (I used this online calculator to show the genetic similarity between Ancient samples and modern populations.)

    Genetic similarity to I9010 Mycenaean Gedcom ID: M472594



    Genetic similarity to I0073 Minoan Gedcom ID: M715422



    Genetic similarity to I2499 Ba_Anatolia (Bronze Age Anatolian) Gedcom ID: M740087


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ancient Canaanite (Sidon)


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    Interesting maps. The square on northeast Turkey is oddly closer than other territories than I'd expect.
    Administrator of the Young Family Project
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm
    (I used this online calculator to show the genetic similarity between Ancient samples and modern populations.)

    this online calculator is using K36 and a spreadsheet based on living people found on gedmatch.

    K36 is using in its evaluation very few SNPs for these three ancient samples. An average modern sample has 160000/170000 SNPs used for this evaluation.

    M472594 - 20375 SNPs used in this evaluation

    M715422 - 69274 SNPs used in this evaluation

    M740087 - 26775 SNPs used in this evaluation

    K36 is inflating the Italian component for these three ancient samples. These results should be taken with a grain of salt, because all these three ancient samples have very few components on K36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Well, I suppose there's a very small chance he could have had light eyes and/or hair. But odds are his eyes and hair were brown, based on what this study has told us about the Myceaneans.

    His hair texture could have been straight or curly. idk
    this study about the Myceneans was not out yet when the reconstruction was made, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Well if we knew more about the method they used. For me the most weird thing about it is the space between the eyes, and maybe the space between the nose and lips or the shape of the lips. Today wavy brown hair are more common.

    Concerning pigmentation, he doesn't seem that dark to me.

    I have a grandmother from there (near Pylos) who is much lighter but the people of the village probably have ancestry from Franks and Latins.
    that is the 'strange' to me also.
    the wide gasp among eyes
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    this study about the Myceneans was not out yet when the reconstruction was made, right?
    yup

    reconstruction is earlier

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    What a storm concerning the reconstruction of ONE man! - reconstruction of mean value, surely not too good, not too bad. Where was picked the affirmation he was blond haired??? and ONE man doesn't make a folk, even in ancient time.
    And what we have to date is data indicating AND continuity AND slight enough changes since Neolithic to modern Mycenians, through Minoans and Mycenians, and about few people of different places. the EHG supposed steppic with tiny CHG in Mycenians must keep us prudent and could have been absorbed through at least two hypothetic ways. No more certainty. I personally suppose the complementary auDNA of Mycenians could have been send by Steppic people mixed with former "Europeans" not far from the western coasts of the Black Sea but it's only supposition todate, spite it has, I think, the support of ancient thesis (but I'm very weak here)...
    believe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
    this online calculator is using K36 and a spreadsheet based on living people found on gedmatch.

    K36 is using in its evaluation very few SNPs for these three ancient samples. An average modern sample has 160000/170000 SNPs used for this evaluation.

    M472594 - 20375 SNPs used in this evaluation

    M715422 - 69274 SNPs used in this evaluation

    M740087 - 26775 SNPs used in this evaluation

    K36 is inflating the Italian component for these three ancient samples. These results should be taken with a grain of salt, because all these three ancient samples have very few components on K36.
    Usually over 30000 SNPs it's enough to see a less noisy result, but it's true these calculators are not perfect and shouldn't be taken guaranteed.

    The reason why the Italian component peaks in many of these ancient samples is because modern Italians are largely descend from Neolithic migrations from Anatolia/Mesopotamia. Keep in mind that 5-8000 years ago most ancestors of modern Italians lived in Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Interesting maps. The square on northeast Turkey is oddly closer than other territories than I'd expect.
    I think that NE Turkey sample is from Trabzon and they are largely descendants of Byzantines including Hellenes. Western Turks are often of recent migrant descent (Kurds, Iranians, Uzbeks, Arabs, Balkans) - Usually the mix of these

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    Sweet Maps. Looks like Anatolia_BA is the first legitimate match for modern Turks and Cypriots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Well if we knew more about the method they used. For me the most weird thing about it is the space between the eyes, and maybe the space between the nose and lips or the shape of the lips. Today wavy brown hair are more common.

    Concerning pigmentation, he doesn't seem that dark to me.

    I have a grandmother from there (near Pylos) who is much lighter but the people of the village probably have ancestry from Franks and Latins.
    I dislike how reductionist these sort of arguments get as if curly hair means Greek. Also, it's not that the Mycenaean reconstruction has a particularly dark skin complexion, it's not that it's dark, it's just a weird skin complexion. Bronze? wtf is that?

    I will post a random pic of a Greek to illustrate what I mean

    Attachment 9062

    This dude is not "light skinned" either. But it's the whole look, the symmetry (or lack thereof as the case may be), the colours, the face shape that screams "I'M GREEK".

    The so-called Mycenaean in that pic looks like Conan or Pocahontas's dad, not particularly Greek.

    Again, that is my view and it is as valid as any other Greek's. It is more valid if we're talking about Cretan Greeks which I am one and I assume, most people here aren't.

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    Boss, your username and avatar are awesome!

    I'll admit, I have no idea what a common Greek looks like...I've never even been to Greece to begin with.

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    9062: "invalid attachment"

  19. #569
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    .
    The Myceneans have a rich palette of colours,- and I dare as far I well know- that it was more sophisticated than Minoans, which they didn't have so big variety of colours and tones.
    So why we dont have a depicted -till now-, blond mycenean but on contrary the trend or the usual without exception by far is the dark hair among them? If there was present at their time and since they had a great variety of ochre and browns and yellows why all these artists of the antiguity abanoned the possibility for more "expression"?
    For the curly hair as mentioned if not was a common trait, sure it is a longlived fashion trend for the local population of the peninsula. -Hmm?

    We also have an enourmous numbers of pieces to say; -fragments or splinters; -of frescoes, actually a couple of hundreds of thousands and they reconstructed are a couple or triple of hundreds till now...
    So, we have to wait... as many times said for the Dna, as well we can say for the rest of the fragments...


    That;s what we have until now,





    ... that's what they are.


    Interesting is the case of the dog, could that be a mollosus dog by the way?
    If is for someone difficult to classify human persons, the classification of sheeps is far more difficult...


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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Phenotypically the Mycaenean image resembles a Dodecanese Islander particularly those from Kalymnos. I grew up around several and was stricken by their pronounced features.
    Woa @Matwadorf
    Thanks about that, I've been for several years to the islands... Remember some of the locals at Kos call me Calymnian!
    I am Sarakatsanian Epirot both parents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    This thread should be about the genetic origins of Mycenaean Hellenes, not some pseudo scientific humbug about Greek football players.


    ΅What's wrong with football? Lol !!!





    This one must be a goalkeeper. Lol.






    http://www.mixanitouxronou.gr/stin-a...-ke-podosfero/

    Unfortunately is only in greek. sorry.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Anyway he looks like me and I had a lot of fun with the previous posts especially that one of @Jovialis



    I am amazed, It is not only the mature man but well reminds me as an adolescent.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Boss View Post
    I dislike how reductionist these sort of arguments get as if curly hair means Greek. Also, it's not that the Mycenaean reconstruction has a particularly dark skin complexion, it's not that it's dark, it's just a weird skin complexion. Bronze? wtf is that?

    I will post a random pic of a Greek to illustrate what I mean

    Attachment 9062

    This dude is not "light skinned" either. But it's the whole look, the symmetry (or lack thereof as the case may be), the colours, the face shape that screams "I'M GREEK".

    The so-called Mycenaean in that pic looks like Conan or Pocahontas's dad, not particularly Greek.

    Again, that is my view and it is as valid as any other Greek's. It is more valid if we're talking about Cretan Greeks which I am one and I assume, most people here aren't.
    We can't see the attachment.

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    I assume the light skin specific genetic alleles came with Steppe migrations. Minoans were almost homogeneously brunette based on the paintings and their genetic footprint suggest it also.
    Mycenaeans already carried ~ 15-20% Corded Ware/Steppe admixture compared to Minoans (and spoke a clear Indo European language belong in the same subclade with the proto-Armenian branch) and We can see on some paintings a few Mycenaean Hellene had lighter features, but modern Mainland Greeks seem to carry extra 25-30% Steppe/Bell Beaker like admixture that likely came with the assimilation of Vlachs and other considerably steppe influenced populations.
    There's been Slavic settlements documented in Thessaly "Wallachia"' just after 200 AD

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    I assume the light skin specific genetic alleles came with Steppe migrations. Minoans were almost homogeneously brunette based on the paintings and their genetic footprint suggest it also.
    Mycenaeans already carried ~ 15-20% Corded Ware/Steppe admixture compared to Minoans (and spoke a clear Indo European language belong in the same subclade with the proto-Armenian branch) and We can see on some paintings a few Mycenaean Hellene had lighter features, but modern Mainland Greeks seem to carry extra 25-30% Steppe/Bell Beaker like admixture that likely came with the assimilation of Vlachs and other considerably steppe influenced populations.
    There's been Slavic settlements documented in Thessaly "Wallachia"' just after 200 AD
    plz
    don't mix Vlachs with Slavs,
    especially of Thessaly which are Kutsuk-Vlachs
    Vlachs, mainly Mengle have Slavic admixture which vary according origin, from 0% to very high % (Antes)
    but all Vlachs are not Slavs,
    some are local balkan people Latinised,
    some are Romans,
    some are Gaulish and even Germanic sccording the Lagio they were.
    homeland of Vlachs is not Wallachia neither Romania

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