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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Yes, it is big true, reputation.

    Unfortunately, some Balkanites are very jealous of the ancient Greek civilization.

    Greeks were as Californians present day but ancestors of others were Barbarians no matter where they originated from different areas Asia and Europe.

    They did not have the benefits of a civilisation and culture like Greeks, including a letter and a written language.

    Even some people try to find in their history something great that did not exist and then, in the absence of it, they fabricate.

    All what we know about the ancient world comes from the Greeks (and other peoples who had a letter).

    In today's interpretations it may seem that the Greeks felt superior, nationalistic, and humiliated Barbarians.

    However, it has nothing to do with the truth.

    Peter Wade, Race: An Introduction, 2015

    (Quote)

    “The Greeks did not try to divide humans up into types, according to their material, natural characteristics. Much more important was the form of political governance and civil association. The Greeks differentiated between themselves and ‘barbarians’, but this distinction was based not on geography, appearance or ancestry, but on how people lived. Barbarians were those who lived according to the laws of physics (‘nature’ in the sense of the domain of things that exist independent of human intervention) and thus lived brutishly, inarticulately, without real choice, governed by custom and habit alone, bound together by descent, and subject to tyranny and hierarchy. All people had to contend with physics and custom, but they did not have to be ruled by them alone. Those who lived by the rule of nomos – man-made laws operating through reason, moderation and properly formed speech in a public assembly – were civilised citizens who lived in the political way. People who lived under the rule of monarchs and despots would be inferior.”
    Greeks had 4000 years of Aristocracy, Kingdoms, Emperors, etc. And they had at most, 200 years of "democracy".

    All, and I mean All, great Greek philosophers were against "democracy", and pro Aristocracy, Hierarchy and the Natural rule of Inequality.

    You re trying to understand the Greek mentality. Read ancient Greek sources, and make your own opinion, instead of reading biased opinions.

    Greeks called barbarians ANY non Greek, first for their language( when a barbarian talked they listened to "bar bar bar"), and secondly to ancestry. Herodotus defined Greek Identity as being one of BLOOD, first and foremost, then language, then customs and culture and tradition.

    All the above, can be read in ancient greek sources.

    Suggesting that Greeks didnt distinguish between them and barbarians, through ancestry, is an outright lie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leandros View Post
    Greeks had 4000 years of Aristocracy, Kingdoms, Emperors, etc. And they had at most, 200 years of "democracy".

    All, and I mean All, great Greek philosophers were against "democracy", and pro Aristocracy, Hierarchy and the Natural rule of Inequality.

    You re trying to understand the Greek mentality. Read ancient Greek sources, and make your own opinion, instead of reading biased opinions.

    Greeks called barbarians ANY non Greek, first for their language( when a barbarian talked they listened to "bar bar bar"), and secondly to ancestry. Herodotus defined Greek Identity as being one of BLOOD, first and foremost, then language, then customs and culture and tradition.

    All the above, can be read in ancient greek sources.

    Suggesting that Greeks didnt distinguish between them and barbarians, through ancestry, is an outright lie.
    All what you write is all right, but I think that Wade (author) wanted to highlights that Barbarians didn't have nomos only physics.

    Not only different language and ancestry, nomos is factor of differentiation between Greeks and Barbarians.

    I think it is author's the point.

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    Garrick - Hellenes were racist about racial purity by today's definition. Pureness of blood in places like Athens would play a significant role in your live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Yes, it is big true, reputation.

    Unfortunately, some Balkanites are very jealous of the ancient Greek civilization.

    Greeks were as Californians present day but ancestors of others were Barbarians no matter where they originated from different areas Asia and Europe.

    They did not have the benefits of a civilisation and culture like Greeks, including a letter and a written language.

    Even some people try to find in their history something great that did not exist and then, in the absence of it, they fabricate.

    All what we know about the ancient world comes from the Greeks (and other peoples who had a letter).

    In today's interpretations it may seem that the Greeks felt superior, nationalistic, and humiliated Barbarians.

    However, it has nothing to do with the truth.

    Peter Wade, Race: An Introduction, 2015

    (Quote)

    “The Greeks did not try to divide humans up into types, according to their material, natural characteristics. Much more important was the form of political governance and civil association. The Greeks differentiated between themselves and ‘barbarians’, but this distinction was based not on geography, appearance or ancestry, but on how people lived. Barbarians were those who lived according to the laws of physics (‘nature’ in the sense of the domain of things that exist independent of human intervention) and thus lived brutishly, inarticulately, without real choice, governed by custom and habit alone, bound together by descent, and subject to tyranny and hierarchy. All people had to contend with physics and custom, but they did not have to be ruled by them alone. Those who lived by the rule of nomos – man-made laws operating through reason, moderation and properly formed speech in a public assembly – were civilised citizens who lived in the political way. People who lived under the rule of monarchs and despots would be inferior.”
    Some of info-europeans went in Greece some went in Spain, some in France, some in Italy. The once that went in Greece had the state structure of the Minionians ready so their progress was faster. Jealousy for the Greece I have none....I just can't stand their lies.


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    are not some of us going away from the very thread here? genetic origin

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    are not some of us going away from the very thread here? genetic origin
    Seconded. Back on topic, people, pronto.


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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    I meant from the modern distribution, like some common haplogroups that date to the middle Bronze Age for example.
    We know south Caucasians and Greeks share a lot of J2a, but I think most of the downstream subclades shared between them have no relation to this hypothetical proto-Greek migration but date earlier (many to the early Bronze Age) and so better attributed to Minoans and other pre-Greek peoples.
    There is one E-V13 Armenian guy who is Z5018+ (main Balkan subclade ?) but negative for downstream L17- Z16242- S2979- A2192- but he could still be a result of some old Greek presence in the area from Alexander to the Byzantines, assuming this basal subclade is to be found in modern Greece.
    Kurds have a relatively high amount of E-V13, but no information which downstream subclade it is. could still be Balkanic in origin.
    R1b-Z2103 should from now on be thought of as three subclades : L277 / L584 / Z2106 (or its subclade CTS7822). The first two are shared between Greeks and south Caucasians, but more common in the latter, while the third is mostly East European(including Greeks) and possibly central Asian with very few Armenian results.
    Funny thing is that the most promising subclade to be the common denominator is the minor I2c2, it has all the requirement, 4000 TMRCA, 4% in Armenians and 2.3% in Greeks, (6% in Thessaly, 9% in Crete).
    This was a useful post on Greek haplogroups
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post495469
    Armenian dna project
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    not kurdish e-v13 but iranic
    http://www.iranicaonline.org/article...anian-aran-arm
    6% found in the iranian province of Yazd and 5% found in ancient Albania in the caucsaus as per above aatachment

    yazd province is not yazidi people
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    not kurdish e-v13 but iranic
    http://www.iranicaonline.org/article...anian-aran-arm
    6% found in the iranian province of Yazd and 5% found in ancient Albania in the caucsaus as per above aatachment
    yazd province is not yazidi people
    Ancient Albania in the Caucasus is basically Azerbaijan. Sorry Sile, but could you help me locate the reference to the frequencies? I tried skimming through it but failed to locate it.

    or because it doesn't exist ....
    Last edited by IronSide; 02-09-17 at 14:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Oh a lower fst score means closer and less drifted if i understand fst right
    Pretty much. It must be some weirdly isolated population as Angela said, can't see any other explanation if they're wholly actual South Italians.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    OK

    since the thread is about Myceneans

    the 9nth in volume Mycenean tomb that is revealed until today.
    came to publicity today,

    the area is Orchomenos

    Among more than 4000 mycenean tombs escavated the last 150 years.


















    the tomb has a 20 m corridor reaching 6 m deep in the rock

    the last photo is a cover with tin,

    as I said many times before, Myceneans knew tin bronze,
    while yamnaa used Arsenic bronze
    Last edited by Yetos; 11-09-17 at 21:51.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post

    the last photo is a cover with tin,

    as I said many times before Myceneans knew tin bronze,
    while yamnaa used Arsenic bronze
    the Mycenian era was not right after Yamna, it was after Sintashta, who had tin bronze

    where the Mycenian tin came from, it is a riddle

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Mycenian era was not right after Yamna, it was after Sintashta, who had tin bronze

    where the Mycenian tin came from, it is a riddle
    tin in Greek is κασσιτερος cassiteros,
    it gave the name to the islands and West coasts of meditterenean Κασσιτεριδες Νησοι Cassiterite islands

    but from the loose of granite you can have tin in alluvian soils of rivers,
    in balkans they gathered tin from low speed parts of river as alluvian deposits of granite lose
    and still exist a lot of tin in areas where mountains pass through granite rock.

    from antique it was considered as a 'healthy metal' for food cooking etc

    we know Minoans, from a ship wreck, brought cassiteros from Britain

    ''Neolithic life in ancient Crete consisted of major settlements at Myrtos and Mochlos. During this period the Minoans had contact with Egypt, Asia Minor, and Syria with whom they traded for copper, tin, ivory, and gold.''

    ''
    They also imported tin that was used in the production of bronze alloys. Interestingly, the nearest known tin mines appear as far as Spain, Britain, central Europe, and Iran.''



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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    tin in Greek is κασσιτερος cassiteros,
    it gave the name to the islands and West coasts of meditterenean Κασσιτεριδες Νησοι Cassiterite islands

    but from the loose of granite you can have tin in alluvian soils of rivers,
    in balkans they gathered tin from low speed parts of river as alluvian deposits of granite lose
    and still exist a lot of tin in areas where mountains pass through granite rock.

    from antique it was considered as a 'healthy metal' for food cooking etc

    we know Minoans, from a ship wreck, brought cassiteros from Britain

    ''Neolithic life in ancient Crete consisted of major settlements at Myrtos and Mochlos. During this period the Minoans had contact with Egypt, Asia Minor, and Syria with whom they traded for copper, tin, ivory, and gold.''

    ''
    They also imported tin that was used in the production of bronze alloys. Interestingly, the nearest known tin mines appear as far as Spain, Britain, central Europe, and Iran.''

    do you know where these Cassiterite Islands were actually situated?

    cassiterite is tinoxide ore, SnO2 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterite

    it is possible that ores were more spread in small quantities in prehistory, in places we don't know of, because they are depleted

    it has been told many times that tin from Cornwall was imported directly into the Mediterranean by Phoenicians and others, but I don't believe that, there is no proof for Mediterranean vessels of that time sailing the Atlantic coasts

    there was also quite some tin in Iberia, especially northeast, and tin from Afghanistan, north of the Hindu Kush

    there is tin in the ore mountains, central Europe, but strange enough no proof of any exploitation during or before antiquity

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    do you know where these Cassiterite Islands were actually situated?

    cassiterite is tinoxide ore, SnO2 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterite

    it is possible that ores were more spread in small quantities in prehistory, in places we don't know of, because they are depleted

    it has been told many times that tin from Cornwall was imported directly into the Mediterranean by Phoenicians and others, but I don't believe that, there is no proof for Mediterranean vessels of that time sailing the Atlantic coasts

    there was also quite some tin in Iberia, especially northeast, and tin from Afghanistan, north of the Hindu Kush

    there is tin in the ore mountains, central Europe, but strange enough no proof of any exploitation during or before antiquity
    Bicicleur, you may want to take a look at the link below. There was a small amount of tin in Italy and between Germany and Czech Republic, but apparently the Italian source was only used by the Etruscans, and they haven't found very many artifacts which can be sourced to the German area. It seems most of the tin was from Brittany and England.

    See:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_so..._ancient_times

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassites

    The name derives from the Greekkassiteros for "tin"; or from the Phoenician word Cassiterid referring to the islands of Ireland and Britain,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterite

    The mineral name is derived from the term “Cassiterides” which was applied 'islands off the western coast of Europe' in pre-Roman times (the exact location of these 'islands' has been hotly debated over the years, current thought is that the source was probably mainland Spain and that even 2000 years ago, traders had a habit of providing misleading locality information to protect their sources).

    https://www.mindat.org/min-917.html


    there is some quantity of tin in Greece,
    it could be gathered like gold from rivers or digging alluvian deposits cause by rivers,

    mainly in Greece is connected with fluore or calcium and not in a clear crystallic form

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Bicicleur, you may want to take a look at the link below. There was a small amount of tin in Italy and between Germany and Czech Republic, but apparently the Italian source was only used by the Etruscans, and they haven't found very many artifacts which can be sourced to the German area. It seems most of the tin was from Brittany and England.

    See:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_so..._ancient_times
    between Germany and Czech Republic are the ore mountains (Erzgebirge) which I was refering to : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_Mountains
    tin was exploited there during the middle ages, and it has been asumed tin was extracted there 2500 BC, before Brittany and Cornwall, but there was never proof of that, nor prehistoric bronze objects of which the tin could be traced back to the ore mountains, that is quite strange

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassites

    The name derives from the Greekkassiteros for "tin"; or from the Phoenician word Cassiterid referring to the islands of Ireland and Britain,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterite

    The mineral name is derived from the term “Cassiterides” which was applied 'islands off the western coast of Europe' in pre-Roman times (the exact location of these 'islands' has been hotly debated over the years, current thought is that the source was probably mainland Spain and that even 2000 years ago, traders had a habit of providing misleading locality information to protect their sources).

    https://www.mindat.org/min-917.html


    there is some quantity of tin in Greece,
    it could be gathered like gold from rivers or digging alluvian deposits cause by rivers,

    mainly in Greece is connected with fluore or calcium and not in a clear crystallic form
    yes, I think alluvial deposits existed, but I guess these sources were depleted in a short time
    we'll never know the exact locations of these depleted alluvial sources

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, I think alluvial deposits existed, but I guess these sources were depleted in a short time
    we'll never know the exact locations of these depleted alluvial sources
    it is like first gold gathering from river banks
    first iron gathering from red mud of river bed
    etc,

    Tin can be produced by loose - erosion of granite as crystal or as salt,
    so by searching river bottoms, they surely gathered some quantities, who needed millenia to produced,

    then surely when they learn and realize the abilities, they went further and further, reaching Cassiterides islands and start mining and merchntising

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    Greetings to all and my apologies for the off topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leandros View Post
    Herodotus defined Greek Identity as being one of BLOOD, first and foremost, then language, then customs and culture and tradition.
    This was Athenian democrats (!!!) definition for the Greek identity. Herodotus just quoted them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    it is like first gold gathering from river banks
    first iron gathering from red mud of river bed
    etc,

    Tin can be produced by loose - erosion of granite as crystal or as salt,
    so by searching river bottoms, they surely gathered some quantities, who needed millenia to produced,

    then surely when they learn and realize the abilities, they went further and further, reaching Cassiterides islands and start mining and merchntising
    in prehistory almost all minable ores were discovered by alluvial deposits in streams coming from the mountains were the ores were hidden

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    Mycenean+Medieval Slav, is the best ancient genomes-only fit for modern Greeks. I don't know where those modern Greeks are from. I've read that Steppe-rich (supposedly Slavic) admixture is high in some parts of Greece and low in other parts.

    Eurogenes; Modern-day Greeks & Italians vs Mycenaeans
    Greek
    Iran_ChL 0.090±0.071
    Mycenaean 0.478±0.103
    Slav_Bohemia 0.432±0.077
    P-value 0.461783732
    chisq 12.820

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It's utter c***, as always. Where's the BB that would have actually impacted Italian areas? I could go on and on with other examples, but what's the point?

    You can fiddle with this, choosing whatever genomes you want that will give approximately the results you're after, unless, like Kurd, you do it honestly and in a transparent manner. In this instance, that would include the various models which would give decent results.

    Where on earth are your critical faculties?

    The only thing worse than his stats on southern Europeans is your interpretation of them.

    Yes, a lot of Italian genetics is EEF. 74% in my case, 70% for some more Northern Italians, 71% in Albanians, I'm sure Spaniards are close to that as Basques are at 70%. Greeks are way up there too. With Greeks, it seems a lot of it has been present since the Mycenaeans. Since we don't have any ancient Italian genomes except Otzi and Remedello, all of this certainty as to when or with whom it arrived is misplaced.

    Whatever movements from the southeast affected Italy post Neolithic are not unique to Italy. They have to be considered in the broader context of movements into Southeastern Europe, i.e. the Balkans and Greece. Also, to some extent, in Iberia, as the J2 there might attest.

    In my own case, what I do know is that I am almost 40% Western European farmer. That component is lower in the southeast of Europe, and in Anatolia, where it has been declining since the Chalcolithic. I highly doubt any movement from Anatolia after the early Bronze increased it in me. Then I'm almost 26% steppe, close to what people get in the Balkans, including their "Slavic" ancestry. We're up to 66%.

    Then I'm 28% Eastern farmer. How the heck do you know when they arrived in my area given we have no ancient dna? These are the kinds of speculations which put autosomal analysis into disrepute. Now, could some of that "eastern farmer" be from such a migration, or perhaps from Greece? It's possible, but just as possible if that's the case that migration from LBK type communities or from the Balkans, or by the Celts could have done the same thing. Some of my ancestors weren't called Celt-Ligures for nothing. There is no way of knowing until we get ancient dna.
    Last edited by Angela; 16-09-17 at 00:05.

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    What lies are you talking about: the fact that Greece was the jewel of the ancient world? The country than no-one else could match for a long period of time? A country whose name shall remain always as the beacon of light and the cornerstone of modern Western civilization? What kind of lies are you actually referring to?

    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Some of info-europeans went in Greece some went in Spain, some in France, some in Italy. The once that went in Greece had the state structure of the Minionians ready so their progress was faster. Jealousy for the Greece I have none....I just can't stand their lies.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Mycenean+Medieval Slav, is the best ancient genomes-only fit for modern Greeks. I don't know where those modern Greeks are from. I've read that Steppe-rich (supposedly Slavic) admixture is high in some parts of Greece and low in other parts.

    Eurogenes; Modern-day Greeks & Italians vs Mycenaeans
    Greek
    Iran_ChL 0.090±0.071
    Mycenaean 0.478±0.103
    Slav_Bohemia 0.432±0.077
    P-value 0.461783732
    chisq 12.820
    No offense, but the paper models moderns as 70 percent mycenaen. Why are they less Mycenaean than Tuscans here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Mycenean+Medieval Slav, is the best ancient genomes-only fit for modern Greeks. I don't know where those modern Greeks are from. I've read that Steppe-rich (supposedly Slavic) admixture is high in some parts of Greece and low in other parts.

    Eurogenes; Modern-day Greeks & Italians vs Mycenaeans
    Greek
    Iran_ChL 0.090±0.071
    Mycenaean 0.478±0.103
    Slav_Bohemia 0.432±0.077
    P-value 0.461783732
    chisq 12.820
    Steppe ancestry in mainland Greece overall seems to follow a north-south cline (but I remember some exceptions). That doesn't look bad as a tentative model since Greeks seem to have a lot more steppe ancestry and a little more near eastern (i.e. Iran_N-heavy) ancestry compared to the Mycenaean samples we have so far. Who is Slav_Bohemia btw, is it RISE569? I'm asking because it seems to be a bit more "western" than the other early Slavic samples so it might be standing in for various sorts of northern inputs (perhaps including of the sort the Armenoi sample had in excess compared to the other Mycenaeans).

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    No offense, but the paper models moderns as 70 percent mycenaen. Why are they less Mycenaean than Tuscans here?
    The paper didn't make any specific attempt at quantifying that, there were some other experiments ran by a few people (e.g. Tomenable) though. Those really depend on a number of things, especially when you don't really have proximate samples you can use. It might be because Tuscans have a bit less steppe and a bit more Anatolia_N than mainland Greeks and those Mycenaeans were very Anatolian and very low on steppe, so Tuscans need less further 'northern' ancestry. And keep in mind that the Mycenaeans are likely standing in for some similar Bronze Age Italian group here.

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