Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 26 of 120 FirstFirst ... 1624252627283676 ... LastLast
Results 626 to 650 of 2978

Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #626
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,190


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    No offense, but the paper models moderns as 70 percent mycenaen. Why are they less Mycenaean than Tuscans here?
    Because he wants to make Greeks and Balkan people as "Slavic" as possible. DUH.

    The paper didn't arrive at the 70%, just not an amateur who is a Slavic Nationalist.

    [QUOTE=Agamemnon;269113][I][1] "distance%=0.2408 / distance=0.002408"

    Greek

    Mycenaean:I9041 46.7
    Ukrainian_East 27.9
    Mycenaean:I9006 25.4

    [1] "distance%=0.2857 / distance=0.002857"

    Greek

    Mycenaean:I9041 47.0
    Mycenaean:I9006 24.9
    Belarusian 18.1
    Slav_Czech:RISE569 10.0

    Reminds me of the Tuscans, who are often modeled as about 30% Germanic. Of course, it's not all "Germanic", as it isn't all "Ukrainian" necessarily for Greeks, just "more northern" ancestry.
    Last edited by Angela; 16-09-17 at 01:20.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #627
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    3 members found this post helpful.
    No, Angela, David's analysis not utter crap. You're just extremely biased. Those were best fits he could get for Greeks and Italians using available ancient genomes. He didn't choose what model to show, he let qpADM do that. David doesn't have a secret agenda to make Greeks as Slavic as possible.

    Different models can give Greeks different Myceanean percentages. I'm sure some would give them 70% Mycenaean and some much less. It gets confusing when the proposed ancestors share ancestry. Overall Greeks are very similar to Mycenaeans.
    Last edited by Angela; 16-09-17 at 02:32.

  3. #628
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,348


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    No offense, but the paper models moderns as 70 percent mycenaen. Why are they less Mycenaean than Tuscans here?
    Because he wants to prove that Greeks are half Slav, that ancient Greeks were great because they were half Polish. ;) It's a farce.

    What else can you expect from one who was a member of Skadi.

  4. #629
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,190


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Well, Skadi has been closed down hasn't it? Or was it Stormfront? No matter, if Skadi isn't closed down, it will be, I have no doubt, along with theapricity. Now that the SPLC is on the hunt it's inevitable even if I'm ambivalent about it. For those whose real identities are known I wonder how that's going to help any legit job searches here in the US or Australia?

  5. #630
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,348


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, Skadi has been closed down hasn't it? Or was it Stormfront? No matter, if Skadi isn't closed down, it will be, I have no doubt, along with theapricity. Now that the SPLC is on the hunt it's inevitable even if I'm ambivalent about it. For those whose real identities are known I wonder how that's going to help any legit job searches here in the US or Australia?
    Stormfront I think.


    Davidski: "I don't know where the Greeks in my model are from. But they are a little more northern shifted than some of the my other Greek sets"


    So, what game are we playing? :)

  6. #631
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,348


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    No offense, but the paper models moderns as 70 percent mycenaen. Why are they less Mycenaean than Tuscans here?
    These were done by Gravetto-Danubian. Greeks are from Thessaloniki.

    Greek
    "Mycenaean" 75.55
    "Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 15
    "Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 3.7
    "Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 1.65
    "Hungary_CA:I1497" 1.6
    "Unetice_EBA:I0117" 1.3
    "Jordan_EBA:I1730" 1.2


    Italian_Tuscan
    "Mycenaean" 68.75
    "Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 16.45
    "Remedello_BA" 5.25
    "Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 3.7
    "Jordan_EBA:I1730" 2.25

  7. #632
    Princess davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,204


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    ^^^ thanks!
    Angela, when I asked about the low Mycenaean score in the greek model, I too was suspecting something.
    And yes, since Greeks score significant Caucasian or east med, I wouldn't be surprised if they also got some of that Bronze Age Caucasus mixture that also found its way to Italy.

    Taken from your quote:
    "Whatever movements from the southeast affected Italy post Neolithic are not unique to Italy. They have to be considered in the broader context of movements into Southeastern Europe, i.e. the Balkans and Greece. Also, to some extent, in Iberia, as the J2 there might attest. "

  8. #633
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,190


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    No, Angela, David's analysis not utter crap. You're just extremely biased. Those were best fits he could get for Greeks and Italians using available ancient genomes. He didn't choose what model to show, he let qpADM do that. David doesn't have a secret agenda to make Greeks as Slavic as possible.

    Different models can give Greeks different Myceanean percentages. I'm sure some would give them 70% Mycenaean and some much less. It gets confusing when the proposed ancestors share ancestry. Overall Greeks are very similar to Mycenaeans.
    Do you have any concept how that program works? It can only use samples you feed it, for goodness sakes'. I repeat, I don't see you applying any critical faculties whatsoever.

    Are you aware that you are contradicting yourself in those two paragraphs?

    As to your comments at Eurogenes, I will repeat:


    Yes, a lot of Italian genetics is farmer like*. 74% in my case, 70% for some more Northern Italians, 71% and higher in Albanians, I'm sure Spaniards are close to that as Basques are at 70%. Greeks are way up there too, past me, I believe, and they would be mainland Greeks. With Greeks, it seems a lot of it has been present since the Mycenaeans. Since we don't have any ancient Italian genomes except Otzi and Remedello, all of this certainty as to when or with whom it arrived is misplaced.

    Whatever movements from the southeast affected Italy post Neolithic are not unique to Italy, with the possible exception of any Etruscans who may have arrived. I think we have to consider all of this in the broader context of movements into Southeastern Europe, i.e. the Balkans and Greece and then perhaps on to Italy, and/or directly into Italy. Either or both are possible. This also applies, to some extent, to Iberia, as the J2 there might attest.

    In my own case, what I do know is that I am almost 40% Western European farmer, according to the geneplaza ancient Europeans test. That component is much lower in the southeast of Europe, and in Anatolia, where it has been declining since the Chalcolithic. I doubt that any movement from Anatolia after the early Bronze increased it in me. Then, I'm almost 26% steppe, close to the 28% steppe which many people get in the Balkans, including their "Slavic" ancestry. We're up to 66%.

    Then, I'm 28% "Eastern" farmer. and that "Eastern farmer" is not based on Anatolian Chalcolithic and/or Anatolian Bronze Age type samples. What's the big deal? How could that indicate it came post Bronze Age? People of British ancestry are 24% "Eastern farmer". The difference is my western farmer ancestry, not my eastern farmer ancestry.

    There's no way you can know when eastern farmer ancestry arrived in my area given we have no ancient dna. These are the kinds of speculations which put autosomal analysis into disrepute. Now, could some of that "eastern farmer" be from a migration from Anatolia? It's possible, but why don't I get additional Iran Neo/Chl type ancestry? Could it be from Greece? I wouldn't be surprised if some of it came from Greece; maybe the "vine people" who went to southern Italy also went to Liguria or Toscana. It's possible, but just as possible if that's the case that migration from LBK type communities, or from the Balkans, or by the Celts could have done the same thing. Some of my ancestors weren't called Celt-Ligures for nothing. Like I said, there's a 4 point difference in eastern European farmer between me and some Central and Northwestern European people. There is no way of knowing until we get ancient dna.

    ED. *Please stop calling it EEF in this context. As kurd's calculator showed, it is not just Early Neolithic farmer. It's also MN and Chalcolithic as far as western european farmers are concerned, and even LN in the eastern farmers, but no West Asian increased Chalcolithic or Bronze Age samples were included in what I am discussing.

    FWIW, my additional Iran like ancestry in that calculator is lower than in some central and northwestern Europeans.
    Last edited by Angela; 16-09-17 at 20:28.

  9. #634
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,348


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    ^^^ thanks!
    I wouldn't be surprised if they also got some of that Bronze Age Caucasus mixture that also found its way to Italy.
    For sure, that Bronze Age Caucasus mixture arrived into Italy from there: southern Balkans and Greece.

    But now, Davidski and friends are too busy to prove that Poles migrated to Greece and turned the natives into ancient Greeks. ;)

  10. #635
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,190


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    ^^^ thanks!
    Angela, when I asked about the low Mycenaean score in the greek model, I too was suspecting something.
    And yes, since Greeks score significant Caucasian or east med, I wouldn't be surprised if they also got some of that Bronze Age Caucasus mixture that also found its way to Italy.

    Taken from your quote:
    "Whatever movements from the southeast affected Italy post Neolithic are not unique to Italy. They have to be considered in the broader context of movements into Southeastern Europe, i.e. the Balkans and Greece. Also, to some extent, in Iberia, as the J2 there might attest. "
    Actually, those calculators which use "modern" clusters show that Greek populations, even those from Thessaly, have more "Caucasian" or "West Asian" depending on the cluster used, than even southern Italians, so, obviously, more than Northern Italians or even Tuscans.

    In this, for example, Greeks have one point more "Caucasus" than Sicilians, although the Sicilians have two points more Southwest Asian than the Greeks (12 to 10).

    The Greeks have a great deal more "Caucasus" (9 points) and more Southwest Asian (3 points) than Tuscans, and so forth.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...s9M/edit#gid=0

    In this one, Greeks have one point less West Asian than Southern Italians/Sicilians, but 4 points more than Tuscans.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...tJU/edit#gid=0

    Now, we've come a long way since these types of calculators, but I think they are useful for these kinds of comparisons.

    On some analyses, like Haak et al, the Greeks seem to have less steppe than the Tuscans, but they have some WHG (2-3 points) which the Tuscans don't have, and these are definitely the northern Greeks of Thessaly. There were virtually no mesolithic hunter-gatherers of the WHG type in Greece (or the Balkans, until you got up to the Iron Gates), so I think this is some of that "extra WHG" which may have accompanied various migrations from the north into Greece in relatively more recent times, but which didn't make their way into Italy.
    Last edited by Angela; 16-09-17 at 04:11.

  11. #636
    Princess davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,204


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    For sure, that Bronze Age Caucasus mixture arrived into Italy from there: southern Balkans and Greece.
    But now, Davidski and friends are too busy to prove that Poles migrated to Greece and turned the natives into ancient Greeks. ;)
    Yeah, they arrived with their chariots and dragon boats. We all know the Mycenaeans were a cannibalistic tribe who chucked spears, beat their women, and lacked a formal language due to lack of prefrontal development until the master race arrived and made them "superior".
    ;p

  12. #637
    Princess davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,204


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    Ok...Pax Augusta just revealed that a Greek from Thessaloniki can be modeled as 75 percent Mycenaean. This is a northern Greek. The 75 percent score is roughly a 32 point increase. See what Angela implied when she mentioned how easy it is to model people any way you want by submitting the right population combo (with a low closeness score to boot)?

    And if his main goal was to determine the genetic makeup of modern Greeks, why was he modeling Italians? Why was he modeling non Greeks to begin with? Why did he choose not to model Albanians as well? Albanians would also score high Mycenaean by his methods; after all, isn't Albania a border country? Why were they left out?

    Seriously....????

  13. #638
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Angela,

    I do know how apADM works.

    @Everyone,

    David simply posted the best qpADM models for Italians and Greeks using only ancient DNA. That's it. Posters at Eurogenes showed some interest in what Myceanean's genetic makeup implies for Italian not just Greek origins which is why I think he made the post. I can't see any indications David wants to prove Myceanan's greatness came from their Steppe ancestry or that Greeks have lots of Slavic ancestors. He simply goes with the evidence.

    Yeah, Myceanean's almost definitely did have some Steppe ancestry (15-20%) and that's pretty significant for PIE origins. And yes, Slavs probably have intermingled with Greeks. I think we all agree about that stuff. How does professing this make him a Polish nazi? Big deal he said stupid stuff in the past. That doesn't destroy the legitimacy of his tests.

  14. #639
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    I find it interesting how modern Greeks aren't exactly the same as Myceaneans and how modern Egyptians aren't exactly the same as ancient Egyptians. In each case, the ethnic-identity remained but foreign admixture made a significant but not overwhelming impact. Now I expect the same to be true for many ancient/modern ethnic groups.

  15. #640
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    @davef,
    "why was he modeling Italians?"

    Because Italians more or less overlap with Greeks in terms of "ancient" ancestry. Plus some posters thought Mycenaeans were more similar to Southern Italians than Greeks which isn't the case at all.

    When I think about it because Greece and Italy are separated by ocean they shouldn't be similar genetically. It's a coincidence. It's a coincidence the same groups migrated into each place and people in both places ended up having a similar amount of ancestry from each group. It's an even weirder councidence how Askenazi Jews became "similar" to Southern Italians.

  16. #641
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,348


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    David simply posted the best qpADM models for Italians and Greeks using only ancient DNA.
    He posted the best qpADM models for him.

  17. #642
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,348


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    The two Sicilian results alone prove that these qpADM are not proving anything.

    Bell Beaker is archaeologically attested in west Sicily only, but not in east Sicily! It's just the opposite of the david's qpADM models!

    This happens when amateur geeks replace decades of serious archaeological studies with a lack of knowledge.

    Sicilian_East
    Bell_Beaker_Germany 0.222±0.077
    England_Roman_outlier 0.210±0.134
    Mycenaean 0.567±0.163
    P-value 0.504442682
    chisq 12.285
    Full output

    Sicilian_West
    England_Roman_outlier 0.216±0.121
    Mycenaean 0.503±0.135
    Unetice 0.281±0.056
    P-value 0.808464904

  18. #643
    Elite member
    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,508

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    I find it interesting how modern Greeks aren't exactly the same as Myceaneans and how modern Egyptians aren't exactly the same as ancient Egyptians. In each case, the ethnic-identity remained but foreign admixture made a significant but not overwhelming impact. Now I expect the same to be true for many ancient/modern ethnic groups.
    Even more interesting that this little "foreign" admixture came via the North in Greek case while some Aryan Nordic ubermenschen theories claimed that they became "darker" due to Arab admixture comparing ancient Greeks to North Europeans aka the Brad Pitt type. And in Egyptian case the little foreign admixture came via Sub Saharan Africa while for centuries the Black Master Race defenders claimed Egyptians became more "white" due to Persian, Assyrian, Greek and Roman influence. If anything what these results prove is that, there was a rather tight genetic group, a clear tendency with the ancient civilizations. Those bordering the Mediterranean were clearly predominantly Anatolian/Levant Farmer derived and their farmer DNA got actually diluted in later times. And those Civilization in Mesopotamia and South of the Caspian to Harrapa most likely were more Iran_Neo/CHG derived than modern people of the same region. Contrary to what some people assumed of predominantly "Nordic Proto Persians or Medes".

    So two of the most ridiculous agendas in this world have been debunked very hard. The Afro_Centric and White Nordic agendas. It is quite funny tbh.

  19. #644
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,190


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Mass confusion appears to be reigning. What is all this loose talk on other websites about Mycenaeans?

    From the paper: 70% of the Mycenaean genome (and the Minoan genome) is Early Neolithic farmer. Then, 4-16% comes from steppe peoples. Let's make the steppe fixated people happy and use the 16% number. That leaves about 14% for eastern Anatolia Iran like ancestry. Is it a change? Yes. Is it a massive change? NO.

  20. #645
    Regular Member Fluffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-11-14
    Posts
    179

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a l497 s10458
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1n

    Ethnic group
    Dutch / French
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Yes Stormfront.org is shut down. Anthrogenica is next....they have spread false rumours about me.
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

  21. #646
    Regular Member Fluffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-11-14
    Posts
    179

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a l497 s10458
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1n

    Ethnic group
    Dutch / French
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    [QUOTE=davef;519317]Yeah, they arrived with their chariots and dragon boats. We all know the Mycenaeans were a cannibalistic tribe who chucked spears, beat their women, and lacked a formal language due to lack of prefrontal development until the master race arrived and made them "superior".
    ;p

    There is no master race. You being part Jewish you should be extra sensitive to that as the Nazis killed you guys in the hopes of breeding a Master race and eliminating inferior races...it's not funny.

  22. #647
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,348


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Yeah, they arrived with their chariots and dragon boats. We all know the Mycenaeans were a cannibalistic tribe who chucked spears, beat their women, and lacked a formal language due to lack of prefrontal development until the master race arrived and made them "superior".
    ;p
    There is no master race. You being part Jewish you should be extra sensitive to that as the Nazis killed you guys in the hopes of breeding a Master race and eliminating inferior races...it's not funny.
    davef was ironic.

  23. #648
    Regular Member Fluffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-11-14
    Posts
    179

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a l497 s10458
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1n

    Ethnic group
    Dutch / French
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    davef was ironic.
    Ok. I've been hearing it a lot lately. I apologize if I took it the wrong way.

  24. #649
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-03-17
    Posts
    110


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Davidski: "I don't know where the Greeks in my model are from. But they are a little more northern shifted than some of the my other Greek sets"
    I think he might be using that Thessaloniki sample that includes apparently mostly local Macedonians? They do look quite 'northern', maybe more northern than some of the Tuscan samples even.

    I understand Angela's objections of course but it doesn't look like a bad model from a historical perspective either since Greece was in continuous relationship with the CHG/Iran-heavy Anatolia (obviously!) and received further input from Northeast Europe. If Armenoi is an indication, the average of Bronze-Iron Age Greece might actually be higher in steppe than those Mycenaean samples showed and as such will probably lower the further northern input needed. The 9% Iran_CHL makes some sense too since those Mycenaeans were (though still harboring a good deal of CHG/Iran) a bit less near eastern influenced than contemporary Greeks, especially from the Aegean. Of course, to repeat that point again, we don't have any Italian samples yet, though considering that Tuscans and South Italians (but not North Italians) get a good chunk of Mycenaean it's not inconceivable to think that similar groups,with increased CHG/Iran, existed in most of Italy at the time too, possibly due to contacts with the Aegean and the Adriatic at the time as Pax wrote.

    And as also written, Iberia seems to have received some of that Iran/Caucasus input too (but to a lower extent) if you compare them to the Bronze Age Iberian samples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    On some analyses, like Haak et al, the Greeks seem to have less steppe than the Tuscans, but they have some WHG (2-3 points) which the Tuscans don't have, and these are definitely the northern Greeks of Thessaly. There were virtually no mesolithic hunter-gatherers of the WHG type in Greece (or the Balkans, until you got up to the Iron Gates), so I think this is some of that "extra WHG" which may have accompanied various migrations from the north into Greece in relatively more recent times, but which didn't make their way into Italy.
    As you said, it definitely depends on the populations used to model them too. I actually had the Haak paper in mind (apart from some amateur analyses that I know you don't particularly like) when I wrote that Tuscans seem to be a bit more Neolithic and a bit less steppe than (at least some) mainland Greeks, specifically Figure S9.26, C from the supplement. That's my overall impression too, that (Central and Southern) Italians seem to have higher EEF(+WHG) while mainland Greeks seem to have higher steppe+Iran. Probably due to continuing contacts of Greece with Anatolia and North(east) Europe I mentioned that didn't involve much of Italy (in comparison to the Slavs in the Balkans, the "Germanic" input in Italy seems to be quite low based on modern data). The Eurasian PCAs seem to point towards that too, with Italians more on the Neolithic side of things towards the bottom part and the Albanians and Greeks right next to them but a bit more towards the upper, steppe-Iran/Caucasus, side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Yeah, Myceanean's almost definitely did have some Steppe ancestry (15-20%)
    Though to be fair the higher percentage seems to be with later steppe groups that already had increased EEF ancestry. With early steppe groups (i.e. Yamnaya and similar), those samples only got ~13% in the paper (on top of a Minoan-like substrate) and that's part of the reason you need a lot of further northern input since modern mainland Greeks seem to be ~20% Yamnaya-like.

  25. #650
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,190


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    That's my overall impression too, that (Central and Southern) Italians seem to have higher EEF(+WHG) while mainland Greeks seem to have higher steppe+Iran. Probably due to continuing contacts of Greece with Anatolia and North(east) Europe I mentioned that didn't involve much of Italy (in comparison to the Slavs in the Balkans, the "Germanic" input in Italy seems to be quite low based on modern data). The Eurasian PCAs seem to point towards that too, with Italians more on the Neolithic side of things towards the bottom part and the Albanians and Greeks right next to them but a bit more towards the upper, steppe-Iran/Caucasus, side.



    Though to be fair the higher percentage seems to be with later steppe groups that already had increased EEF ancestry. With early steppe groups (i.e. Yamnaya and similar), those samples only got ~13% in the paper (on top of a Minoan-like substrate) and that's part of the reason you need a lot of further northern input since modern mainland Greeks seem to be ~20% Yamnaya-like.
    I put "Germanic" in quotes for a reason. That's the kind of analysis that some amateurs have done in the past. My point was that as some analysts in the past called all more "northern" ancestry in Greece "Slavic", others do the same to Italian regions, i.e. labeling all "northern" ancestry as "German".

    As to the second highlighted point, I suppose it depends what you mean by "a lot of further northern input". How much input would you need to increase a component from 13-20?

    Oh, I forgot. In Haak, the model they went with shows less steppe in Greeks than in Tuscans. What they have more of is, as I said, additional WHG, which I do believe came from the northeast after the Neolithic.


Page 26 of 120 FirstFirst ... 1624252627283676 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •