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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Even more interesting that this little "foreign" admixture came via the North in Greek case while some Aryan Nordic ubermenschen theories claimed that they became "darker" due to Arab admixture comparing ancient Greeks to North Europeans aka the Brad Pitt type. And in Egyptian case the little foreign admixture came via Sub Saharan Africa while for centuries the Black Master Race defenders claimed Egyptians became more "white" due to Persian, Assyrian, Greek and Roman influence. If anything what these results prove is that, there was a rather tight genetic group, a clear tendency with the ancient civilizations. Those bordering the Mediterranean were clearly predominantly Anatolian/Levant Farmer derived and their farmer DNA got actually diluted in later times. And those Civilization in Mesopotamia and South of the Caspian to Harrapa most likely were more Iran_Neo/CHG derived than modern people of the same region. Contrary to what some people assumed of predominantly "Nordic Proto Persians or Medes".

    So two of the most ridiculous agendas in this world have been debunked very hard. The Afro_Centric and White Nordic agendas. It is quite funny tbh.
    Exactly. About time, too.


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    Yes, I agree about "Germanic". What I also had in mind were haplogroups potentially associated with the Germanic migrations and the indications for Italians (vs the Balkans) from the Ralph-Coop paper.

    Check the figure I posted too; it's from the same paper's supplement. It models the Greek sample as 77.7% EN and 19.8% Yamnaya while the Tuscan one gets 79.9% EN and 17.9% Yamnaya. In that one, the extra WHG needed for Greeks is 0.4% and 0% for Tuscans. Either way, the differences are overall small but you can see some changing proportions of components based on the model.

    As for the increase, it would definitely depend on how steppe-heavy the population was, of course. Based on some calculators I've seen, a 10-30% "early Slavic" input (compared to the Mycenaeans) depending on the region, from the Aegean to Macedonia, would make sense.

    Edit: Funnily enough, as we know, the steppe input in the Lebanese compared to the Bronze Age Sidon sample is also about ~7%. But it might have gotten all the way down in the Levant in quite diluted form compared to Yamnaya so it might represent a substantial chunk of actual overall ancestry there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    Yes, I agree about "Germanic". What I also had in mind were haplogroups potentially associated with the Germanic migrations and the indications for Italians (vs the Balkans) from the Ralph-Coop paper.

    Check the figure I posted too; it's from the same paper's supplement. It models the Greek sample as 77.7% EN and 19.8% Yamnaya while the Tuscan one gets 79.9% EN and 17.9% Yamnaya. In that one, the extra WHG needed for Greeks is 0.4% and 0% for Tuscans. Either way, the differences are overall small but you can see some changing proportions of components based on the model.

    As for the increase, it would definitely depend on how steppe-heavy the population was, of course. Based on some calculators I've seen, a 10-30% "early Slavic" input (compared to the Mycenaeans) depending on the region, from the Aegean to Macedonia, would make sense.
    Yes, I agree in general.

    If the Goths and Lombards largely carried U-106 and I1 then there was relatively minor impact from their migrations, as Ralph and Coop et al confirm from IBD analysis, and definitely on a north/east, to north/central and so on cline, they having arrived by taking an end run along the northeastern passage into Italy. I think the majority of the "northern" ancestry in northern Italy and down into Toscana was from the first IE migrations, but also from the "Celtic" migrations both from Central Europe and from Gaul.

    I looked at the figure. However, while Haak, Lazaridis, do all sorts of extensive modeling in their supplements, they do that in order to arrive at their conclusions, which is what they put in the paper itself, and which is where you find the graphic in question. It only makes sense, as, in a lot of PCA's, despite the extra WHG which the mainland Greeks have and the Tuscans do not, the Tuscans plot not only west of the Greeks, but slightly north as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I looked at the figure. However, while Haak, Lazaridis, do all sorts of extensive modeling in their supplements, they do that in order to arrive at their conclusions, which is what they put in the paper itself, and which is where you find the graphic in question. It only makes sense, as, in a lot of PCA's, despite the extra WHG which the mainland Greeks have and the Tuscans do not, the Tuscans plot not only west of the Greeks, but slightly north as well.
    I won't argue on this point too much since overall those populations are so close that it's hard to disentangle some things. My current general impression of the Balkans vs Italy is generally greater steppe+Iran vs EEF respectively with Italy potentially seemingly preserving the heavy EEF Bronze Age structure a bit better than the Balkans did since the latter received further input from the North and East. But we'll see with actual, ancient sampling.

    Btw, the figure they used for that graph is from their test with 3 reference populations. Their addition of Nganasan I posted above seemed to improve the model for Europeans, while the further addition of BedouinB did mostly for Sicilians, Iberians, Maltese and Jews. But the last model again shows Tuscans with slightly more steppe than Greeks (though with a decent chunk of "Bedouin").

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    Btw, the figure they used for that graph is from their test with 3 reference populations. Their addition of Nganasan I posted above seemed to improve the model for Europeans, while the further addition of BedouinB did mostly for Sicilians, Iberians, Maltese and Jews. But the last model again shows Tuscans with slightly more steppe than Greeks (though with a decent chunk of "Bedouin").
    Also Spanish, French, French_south, Hungarians, Cezchs have Bedouin in that try. Even Norwegians have Bedouin.
    When did this Bedouin migration to Norway happen? :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Ok. I've been hearing it a lot lately. I apologize if I took it the wrong way.
    That's alright, and yeah, I was joking.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Also Spanish, French, French_south, Hungarians, Cezchs have Bedouin in that try. Even Norwegians have Bedouin.
    When did this Bedouin migration to Norway happen? :)
    Indeed. :)

    I also read a gem of a statement on another board that an Anatolian Iron Age component, i.e. "Etruscan", is hidden in the EEF of the Tuscans, Italians in general, I can't remember.

    How is that possible? Such a population would be heavily Iran Neo/Chl, CHG, whatever you want to call it, but the EEF samples come from the EN, often Stuttgart, yes, before there was any real amount of that in EEF? I suppose it might depend on the analysis, but people should be careful in their statements.

    To put it in terms of the Geneplaza calculator again, my "extra" Iran type ancestry is lower than that of a lot of northern Europeans. I'll hold my fire on the Levant Neo thing, given the creator's comments about that, but my number is, once again, lower than that of some Central Europeans, or, at least, equal to them. Also, if any Anatolian Iron Age ancestry is hiding in my "eastern farmer", is it also hiding in the almost as high "eastern farmer" of central and northwestern Europeans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Also Spanish, French, French_south, Hungarians, Cezchs have Bedouin in that try. Even Norwegians have Bedouin.
    When did this Bedouin migration to Norway happen? :)
    Czech, Norwegians don't have Bedouin admixture, I'm not exactly sure what charts were you seeing. There's 1-3% Bedouin admixture in Slovenia, Hungary vs 20-30% In South Italy and European Jews. That's a small difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    Czech, Norwegians don't have Bedouin admixture, I'm not exactly sure what charts were you seeing. There's 1-3% Bedouin admixture in Slovenia, Hungary vs 20-30% In South Italy and European Jews. That's a small difference.
    What on earth are you talking about? If you have problems with reading comprehension this may not be the forum for you. If you're ******** again, it definitely isn't.

    We are discussing stats from the Reich lab, specifically from Haak et al, as we clearly stated.

    There isn't 20-30% Bedouin in any population in Europe. You're either sadly misinformed or ******** again. Since this seems to be a pattern, I would say ********, so take the consequences.

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    Obviously the Bedouin component stands for something else in most cases. Also it doesn't really improve the fits in Europe much except for those four populations (Sicilians, Maltese, Iberians, Jews who get a good chunk of it), unlike the Nganasan which improves the whole of Europe pretty much with an expected bias toward the Northeast. I posted it to compare how the steppe estimate changes between the three analyses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    To put it in terms of the Geneplaza calculator again, my "extra" Iran type ancestry is lower than that of a lot of northern Europeans.
    I haven't seen that calculator but by "extra" you mean that it's supposedly ancestry not related to the Caucasus/Iran component in Yamnaya but additional one like of the type the Minoans-Mycenaeans had?

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    Czech, Norwegians don't have Bedouin admixture, I'm not exactly sure what charts were you seeing. There's 1-3% Bedouin admixture in Slovenia, Hungary vs 20-30% In South Italy and European Jews. That's a small difference.
    Now you're throwing away the mask. Welcome back, what else I can add.

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    The jury is out on who has more Bedouin.

    This Bedouin approves


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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    Czech, Norwegians don't have Bedouin admixture, I'm not exactly sure what charts were you seeing. There's 1-3% Bedouin admixture in Slovenia, Hungary vs 20-30% In South Italy and European Jews. That's a small difference.
    Like I said in the IQ thread, this guy's a ***** possibly using multiple accounts; evading a previous ban.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What on earth are you talking about? If you have problems with reading comprehension this may not be the forum for you. If you're ******** again, it definitely isn't.

    We are discussing stats from the Reich lab, specifically from Haak et al, as we clearly stated.

    There isn't 20-30% Bedouin in any population in Europe. You're either sadly misinformed or ******** again. Since this seems to be a pattern, I would say ********, so take the consequences.
    Sicilians have 22-23% Bedouin admixture, Spaniards have 18% while Maltese have exceeded 30% in a older study, but on all DNA charts there's a visible North African/Bedouin influence in parts of Southern Europe. I don't understand why it's a problem. It's not some kind of disease to have genetic relatedness to Near Eastern populations, wish my DNA was as exotic as some Italians have it's nice to have genetic heterogeneity.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    Obviously the Bedouin component stands for something else in most cases. Also it doesn't really improve the fits in Europe much except for those four populations (Sicilians, Maltese, Iberians, Jews who get a good chunk of it), unlike the Nganasan which improves the whole of Europe pretty much with an expected bias toward the Northeast. I posted it to compare how the steppe estimate changes between the three analyses.



    I haven't seen that calculator but by "extra" you mean that it's supposedly ancestry not related to the Caucasus/Iran component in Yamnaya but additional one like of the type the Minoans-Mycenaeans had?
    See:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ight=geneplaza

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    Sicilians have 22-23% Bedouin admixture, Spaniards have 18% while Maltese have exceeded 30% in a older study, but on all DNA charts there's a visible North African/Bedouin influence in parts of Southern Europe. I don't understand why it's a problem. It's not some kind of disease to have genetic relatedness to Near Eastern populations, wish my DNA was as exotic as some Italians have it's nice to have genetic heterogeneity.

    If anything it stands for something else, it's not like Bedouins went to Europe or something, maybe Natufian.

    EEF could be modeled as Natufians + WHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    If anything it stands for something else, it's not like Bedouins went to Europe or something, maybe Natufian.

    EEF could be modeled as Natufians + WHG.
    Yes. Having shared ancestry with Bedouins /=Bedouin admixture. The Bedouin probably covers the post Neolithic admixture in Europe which is probably related to bronze age migrations from the Fertile descent as well as Phoenician, Carthagian admixture in the case of places like Sicily, Iberia, but anyway it seems some people don't like the Near East, so it's a taboo to talk anything about them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @davef,
    "why was he modeling Italians?"

    Because Italians more or less overlap with Greeks in terms of "ancient" ancestry. Plus some posters thought Mycenaeans were more similar to Southern Italians than Greeks which isn't the case at all.

    When I think about it because Greece and Italy are separated by ocean they shouldn't be similar genetically. It's a coincidence. It's a coincidence the same groups migrated into each place and people in both places ended up having a similar amount of ancestry from each group. It's an even weirder councidence how Askenazi Jews became "similar" to Southern Italians.
    Yeah but his models are giving 50 something percent Mycenaean to Sicily and 47 percent to Greece. They kinda contradict the idea that Greeks are closer.

    But I'll admit, I'm not implying that south Italians are closer; in fact, i still find it doubtful that your average Joe Greek has that little Mycenaean and that much Slavic.

    And Pax Augusta posted results taken from a northern sample showing 3/4 Mycenaean, 1/4 slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    Sicilians have 22-23% Bedouin admixture, Spaniards have 18% while Maltese have exceeded 30% in a older study, but on all DNA charts there's a visible North African/Bedouin influence in parts of Southern Europe. I don't understand why it's a problem. It's not some kind of disease to have genetic relatedness to Near Eastern populations, wish my DNA was as exotic as some Italians have it's nice to have genetic heterogeneity.

    I guess you should have looked at it before you said that Norwegians didn't have any...a very small amount, but they do have it.

    Of course there's nothing wrong with it. Anyone who has been here for a while knows I don't have any truck with Nordicist garbage.

    However, if you really think that this represents actual Bedouin admixture into Spain, Sicily or even Malta there's really nothing I can add.

    The Bedouin probably covers the post Neolithic admixture in Europe which is probably related to bronze age migrations from the Fertile descent as well as Phoenician, Carthagian admixture in the case of places like Sicily, Iberia, but anyway it seems some people don't like the Near East, so it's a taboo to talk anything about them.
    Did you bother to read the paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans? The Bronze Age ancestry brought steppe and Anatolian type ancestry with more Iran Neo/Chl. The amount of additional Levant type ancestry was about 3% if I remember correctly, which happens to be the amount of additional Levant Neo I get in Kurd's analysis based on ancient dna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    Yes. Having shared ancestry with Bedouins /=Bedouin admixture. The Bedouin probably covers the post Neolithic admixture in Europe which is probably related to bronze age migrations from the Fertile descent as well as Phoenician, Carthagian admixture in the case of places like Sicily, Iberia, but anyway it seems some people don't like the Near East, so it's a taboo to talk anything about them.
    I don't think Phoenicians caused that much genetic change.

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    It's a misunderstanding to take Mycenaean related admixture as Hellenic as it's genetically would be nearly impossible to differentiate ancient Hellenes from other Bronze age populations that settled in Italy and across the whole Southern European coasts.
    Maybe they weren't Hellenes, but I assume they were very closely related to Hellenic people and spoke similar language.
    The same goes for Corded Ware related admixture including Bell Beaker. Ancient Romans were probably partially Pelasgian like and Corded Ware/Celtic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Like I said in the IQ thread, this guy's a ***** possibly using multiple accounts; evading a previous ban.
    EDIT: I did not know the word tro-l is censored here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    I don't think Phoenicians caused that much genetic change.
    Obviously not,at least as concerns Italy, but Curious Cat and our late un-lamented Nordicist/Stormfront Spanish posters love trotting it out.

    Of course, Phoenicians are very much like Canaanites, who have a lot of Levant Neo, so some of that type of ancestry is part of Neolithic migrations to Europe.

    I'm speaking specifically here of actual Phoenician/Carthaginian ancestry from that era.


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    Ah thanks. That is interesting, you got a pretty low % of the extra Iran-Caucasus but at least it seems that Northern Europeans do get less than the Italians and the Greek in that thread overall as expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Yeah but his models are giving 50 something percent Mycenaean to Sicily and 47 percent to Greece. They kinda contradict the idea that Greeks are closer.

    But I'll admit, I'm not implying that south Italians are closer; in fact, i still find it doubtful that your average Joe Greek has that little Mycenaean and that much Slavic.

    And Pax Augusta posted results taken from a northern sample showing 3/4 Mycenaean, 1/4 slavic.
    It would depend on whether the rest of the ancestry needed to model them was already closer to the Mycenaeans, I suppose. But I don't see something impossible a priori about the idea of Sicilians being a bit closer than mainland Greeks if the further ancestry received in Greece was more different to the Myceneans than the one received in Sicily (e.g. early Slavs vs Anatolia/Levant, the Mycenaeans were much closer to the latter).

    And anyway, what's needed is more sampling, clever modelling has its obvious limits. The one outlier with apparently higher steppe in this dataset was unfortunately too low-coverage for them to run more tests on apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by curiouscat View Post
    It's a misunderstanding to take Mycenaean related admixture as Hellenic as it's genetically would be nearly impossible to differentiate ancient Hellenes from other Bronze age populations that settled in Italy and across the whole Southern European coasts.
    Yes, that's the case most likely as a few people have already pointed out. We just don't have better references for Italians right now so they latch onto the Mycenaeans. Of course actual Mycenaean/later Greek ancestry isn't unlikely in South Italy and Sicily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    Ah thanks. That is interesting, you got a pretty low % of the extra Iran-Caucasus but at least it seems that Northern Europeans do get less than the Italians and the Greek in that thread overall as expected.
    These are the actual percentages. The totals are very small, nothing like has been thrown around by some "amateurs".

    Northern Europeans:
    Twilight 4.4
    IIa3 Young 3.5
    Tomenable/Polish: 8.4
    Carl Graham 2.2
    Olov 0
    Northener 4.9
    Appalachian 2.3
    Bix 2%
    AHA 3%

    Italians:
    Me 3.4
    Regio’s family approximately 8%
    Stuvane 7.1

    Greek:
    Matadworf 5.5

    Bulgarian
    Valerius 6.9

    Albanian
    Dibran 5.4

    Basque-Arbaso 3%

    We would need a lot more samples, but my hunch is that northwestern Italians will tend to have less of this than north eastern Italians because there was additional input from the Balkans and Greece into eastern areas of Italy before subsequent changes to the Greek and Balkan genomes. It only needs to be added that I'm one-quarter far Northwest Tuscan (the Lunigiana), and one-quarter Eastern Ligurian (La Spezia). You would think I'd have a bit of "Etruscan".

    Now, this isn't a thread on Italian genetics. I shouldn't have let this continue for so long

    Let's get back on topic.

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