Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Yetos]

^ This as I wrote quite some time ago. I have been reading quite allot of times that in ancient sources Mycenaens have been described to have expanded in oversizing the local numbers.

About the West Iranic tribes , aka proto Medes it is said by ancient Near Eastern sources. That they were normal herders/farmers who came in search for new grasslands. But they were known and respected as the best horse-breeders of the region.

The main reason why parts of North/Northeast Europe have more Steppe admixture is basically because these region were less populated. The further South you went (starting from the Bell Beaker regions) the admixture became lower to only ~15% among Mycenaens.

They must have brought advantage to some regions such as the Mitanni/Medes with their horse-breeding skills and their well equipped charriots. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to establish themselves in already settled cultures. But Elite Dominance inspite of findings of yDNA J, G in Mycenaens, Zoroastrians and Sarmatians?

Maybe in sparsely populated areas of Northeast Europe yes. But in the South it looked more like a blend of two meeting cultures.

Alan West Iranian maybe are not only the Medes,
Colchis/Laz/Rize, was always my secret believe, although till today is connected more with Hettits, another is Cappadokia, maybe should be a mixing border, instead of an iron curtain

Anyway, if we take the oposite the Anatolian Hypothesis fits better,

All I knew and were strongly documented by Archaiologists seems to 'buff' smoke on the water

the problem is
could a 7-14@ change the language?
and we not speak about using Atom bombs or schools

 

[Yetos]

This thread should be about the genetic origins of Mycenaean Hellenes, not some pseudo scientific humbug about Greek football players.

it is simple,

the reconstructed Mycenean is not considered 'typical beauty' of what most of us believe.
yet that look is not strange in Greece, geting out for a walk you would see enough, to say, that this not allien look in Greece
and that was the whole meaning of photos

 

[Sile]

This thread should be about the genetic origins of Mycenaean Hellenes, not some pseudo scientific humbug about Greek football players.

well said and honest

 

[Sakattack]

it is simple,

the reconstructed Mycenean is not considered 'typical beauty' of what most of us believe.
yet that look is not strange in Greece, geting out for a walk you would see enough to say, that this not allien look in Greece
and that was the whole meaning of photos

I second that.

Nobody said that the Mycenaean reconstructed face is the most prevalent look nowydays in Greece. It's not.

But if you see someone like him somewhere in Greece, you don't have second thoughts of what language you should speak to him.

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[Dianatomia]

I second that.

Nobody said that the Mycenaean reconstructed face is the most prevalent look nowydays in Greece. It's not.

But if you see someone like him somewhere in Greece, you don't have second thoughts of what language you should speak to him.

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The face shape could be Greek. Not typical, but it could. It's just that the complexion and the hair type certainly is not Greek. But these 'artists' have no way of knowing what the complexion or hair type actually was. For all we know that particular Mycenean warrior had blonde hair and blue eyes.

 

[Sakattack]

The face shape could be Greek. Not typical, but it could. It's just that the complexion and the hair type certainly is not Greek. But these 'artists' have no way of knowing what the complexion or hair type actually was. For all we know that particular Mycenean warrior had blonde hair and blue eyes.

For all we know, the Mycenaeans were quite similar to the Minoans and this face reconstruction is the best picture we have.
Complexion and hair included.

Don't know where you live and you find "certainly not Greek" the curly hair and this darkish complexion. I have my father in law next to me right now (half "old Greek", have Cycladic islander) and I can assure you he has pretty curly hair and his skin is kinda olive color.

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[bicicleur 2]

For all we know, the Mycenaeans were quite similar to the Minoans and this face reconstruction is the best picture we have.
Complexion and hair included.

Don't know where you live and you find "certainly not Greek" the curly hair and this darkish complexion. I have my father in law next to me right now (half "old Greek", have Cycladic islander) and I can assure you he has pretty curly hair and his skin is kinda olive color.

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I'm very sceptical about any reconstruction of prehistoric people
it's always an artists interpretation, and often also imagination

 

[Dianatomia]

For all we know, the Mycenaeans were quite similar to the Minoans and this face reconstruction is the best picture we have.
Complexion and hair included.

Who said that the Minoans looked like that reconstruction? The complexity is more similar to that of an Indian. BTW, what do you mean by 'old Greek'?

 

[Jovialis]

Who said that the Minoans looked like that reconstruction? The complexity is more similar to that of an Indian. BTW, what do you mean by 'old Greek'?

The grave was discovered last year by Jack L. Davis and Sharon R. Stocker, a husband-and-wife team at the University of Cincinnati, and is judged by other archaeologists to be one of the richest tombs to have been found in Greece in the last half-century. The warrior was buried around 1450 B.C., a date derived from pottery found around the grave. His facial appearance has been reconstructed from his skull by Lynne Schepartz and Tobias Houlton of the University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg.

Source

Here's information on where the reconstruction was created.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Here's information on where the reconstruction was created.

so, only the shape of his skull, no phenotype DNA genes?
colour of his skin, hair and eyes?
flat or curly hair, or no hair at all?

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Well if we knew more about the method they used. For me the most weird thing about it is the space between the eyes, and maybe the space between the nose and lips or the shape of the lips. Today wavy brown hair are more common.

Concerning pigmentation, he doesn't seem that dark to me.

I have a grandmother from there (near Pylos) who is much lighter but the people of the village probably have ancestry from Franks and Latins.

 

[Sakattack]

Who said that the Minoans looked like that reconstruction? The complexity is more similar to that of an Indian. BTW, what do you mean by 'old Greek'?

Nobody, but we know that Minoans where quite similar with the Mycenaeans and a little more Southern shifted.

Old Greece, I mean Sterea Ellada. In his case is Fthiotis.

The pigmentation is not that of an Indian, come on... Not even close, at least in my eyes.

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[Jovialis]

so, only the shape of his skull, no phenotype DNA genes?
colour of his skin, hair and eyes?
flat or curly hair, or no hair at all?

"These results suggest that ancient Bronze Age individuals from the Aegean and southwesternAnatolia had mostly dark (brown or black) hair and brown eyes. Blue eyes were uncommonas predicted by the lack of homozygotes for the G allele at rs12913832 which is the majorpredictor of this trait, however, this allele did occur in all studied populations (Table S4.1),thus the phenotype would have been uncommon but not unknown in the region. The browneye phenotype is still the most common in present-day Greeks occurring in ~3/4 of them, withthe remainder split between blue and intermediate shades1. Similarly, ~79% of present-dayGreeks have light or dark brown hair, with the remainder split between blond and black."

Post #2

Well, I suppose there's a very small chance he could have had light eyes and/or hair. But odds are his eyes and hair were brown, based on what this study has told us about the Myceaneans.

His hair texture could have been straight or curly. idk

 

[matadworf]

Phenotypically the Mycaenean image resembles a Dodecanese Islander particularly those from Kalymnos. I grew up around several and was stricken by their pronounced features.

 

[curiouscat]

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm
(I used this online calculator to show the genetic similarity between Ancient samples and modern populations.)

Genetic similarity to I9010 Mycenaean Gedcom ID: M472594

Genetic similarity to I0073 Minoan Gedcom ID: M715422

Genetic similarity to I2499 Ba_Anatolia (Bronze Age Anatolian) Gedcom ID: M740087

 

[curiouscat]

Ancient Canaanite (Sidon)

 

[I1a3_Young]

Interesting maps. The square on northeast Turkey is oddly closer than other territories than I'd expect.

 

[Pratt]

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm
(I used this online calculator to show the genetic similarity between Ancient samples and modern populations.)

this online calculator is using K36 and a spreadsheet based on living people found on gedmatch.

K36 is using in its evaluation very few SNPs for these three ancient samples. An average modern sample has 160000/170000 SNPs used for this evaluation.

M472594 - 20375 SNPs used in this evaluation

M715422 - 69274 SNPs used in this evaluation

M740087 - 26775 SNPs used in this evaluation

K36 is inflating the Italian component for these three ancient samples. These results should be taken with a grain of salt, because all these three ancient samples have very few components on K36.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Well, I suppose there's a very small chance he could have had light eyes and/or hair. But odds are his eyes and hair were brown, based on what this study has told us about the Myceaneans.

His hair texture could have been straight or curly. idk

this study about the Myceneans was not out yet when the reconstruction was made, right?

 

[Yetos]

Well if we knew more about the method they used. For me the most weird thing about it is the space between the eyes, and maybe the space between the nose and lips or the shape of the lips. Today wavy brown hair are more common.

Concerning pigmentation, he doesn't seem that dark to me.

I have a grandmother from there (near Pylos) who is much lighter but the people of the village probably have ancestry from Franks and Latins.

that is the 'strange' to me also.
the wide gasp among eyes