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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed. The Mycenaeans seem to be clustering with Sicilians. Ashkenazi too, so I wonder if it's possible that the Philistines will turn out to be pretty close to Mycenaneans, and the Philistines started the change we see in Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.
    Nah, Philistines will cluster with ancient Egyptians and Canaanites.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Using D-stats here's what modern mainland Greeks get...

    Anatolia Neolithic-58%
    CHG/Iran Neo-21%
    EHG-18%
    WHG-3%

    Here's what Mycenaean get.

    Anatolia Neolithic-80%
    EHG-7%
    Iran Neo-14%

    And what Minoans get.
    Anatolia Neolithic-86%
    Iran Neo-14%

    But notice when Levant_N is added to the model Minoan's Iran Neo/CHG score goes way up.
    Anatolia Neolithic-62%
    CHG-32%
    Levant Neolithic-6%

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Cycladic, Minoan, and Mycenaean cultures in the Bronze Age:




    Palace at Knossos:





    Look familiar? She's holding prayer beads:


    Lady of Mycenae:


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Attachment 8995

    I love this type of graphic:

    Attachment 8996

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Attachment 8995

    I love how he does this:

    Attachment 8996
    Angela i really enjoy your posts so it bothers me that i cant open these attachments : /

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Angela i really enjoy your posts so it bothers me that i cant open these attachments : /
    Oh, no...Were you signed in? Can you try it one more time? It works for me.

    Thank-you, btw. Nice of you to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Oh, no...Were you signed in? Can you try it one more time? It works for me.
    yeah I'm signed in, but it just gives me this: Attachment 8997

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Big news. Does the northern Iran/Caucus/Steppe mix referenced get explained by Kura Axes seed population?

    Sent from my XT1080 using Eupedia Forum mobile app
    Some people had speculated that Kura Araxes was tied to J1, but the J1 here in Anatolia doesn't plot near our ancient Kura Araxes samples. Plus, of course, the samples were not J1 Someone check me but I don't think any of these new Anatolian samples do...

    @Fire-Haired,

    Huh? The Philistines were intrusive to Canaan, and Egypt for that matter. Have you forgotten the ancient Egyptian dna paper?


    Just a general comment: I've never seen so much special pleading in my life. People, given what the Bronze Age looked like in the Balkans no one should have been expecting a lot of "steppe" in the Mycenaeans. Now, we're going to base everything from one woman in late Minoan Crete who could have arrived from anywhere, but not look at a 'royal' male? Really? I guess if you don't fall in line with the interpretation you don't get to post either.

    Even if the admixture came through the Balkans, rather than from the region around Armenia, we're talking about 13% "steppe", 8% EHG. Big whoops.

    I wouldn't have thought that was enough for language change but I guess it is.

    Even the title of the thread on Eurogenes is misinformation. The Minoans can be modeled as about 80% Anatolian Neolithic. The Mycenaeans have about 13% "steppe" ancestry. Again, big whoops. Do people think nobody reads the Supplementary material?
    Last edited by Angela; 03-08-17 at 04:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Cycladic, Minoan, and Mycenaean cultures in the Bronze Age:




    Palace at Knossos:





    Look familiar? She's holding prayer beads:


    Lady of Mycenae:
    For the record I can see all of these, just the next comment with the 2 attachments I can't

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    For the record I can see all of these, just the next comment with the 2 attachments I can't
    This is the important one. It's from the prior Lazaridis et al paper-2016:


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Some people had speculated that Kura Araxes was tied to J1, but the J1 here in Anatolia doesn't plot near our ancient Kura Araxes samples. Plus, of course, the samples were not J1 Someone check me but I don't think any of these new Anatolian samples do...

    @Fire-Haired,

    Huh? The Philistines were intrusive to Canaan, and Egypt for that matter. Have you forgotten the ancient Egyptian dna paper?


    Just a general comment: I've never seen so much special pleading in my life. People, given what the Bronze Age looked like in the Balkans no one should have been expecting a lot of "steppe" in the Mycenaeans. Now, we're going to base everything from one woman in late Minoan Crete who could have arrived from anywhere, but not look at a 'royal' male? Really? I guess if you don't fall in line with the interpretation you don't get to post either.

    Even if the admixture came through the Balkans, rather than from the region around Armenia, we're talking about 13% "steppe", 8% EHG. Big whoops.

    I wouldn't have thought that was enough for language change but I guess it is.

    Even the title of the thread on Eurogenes is misinformation. The Minoans can be modeled as about 80% Neolithic. Do people think nobody reads the Supplementary material?
    Ed. Good lord, now people know what the Dorians were like? Where is the ancient dna sample that tells us that they were more "steppe like"? When are people going to learn to let the data speak and stop trying to define everything in terms of dubious agendas? Maybe, and maybe not. The Dorians settled "SPARTA", people, you know, where the Peloponnesians are, the people who are so close to the Sicilians?

    Also, for the umpteenth time, read the supplement, and don't pay any attention to posts from discredited people. There wasn't much "Levantine" Neolithic in the Myceneneans, or even the Minoans. The authors found 2-3%, which would be additional on top of what is in Anatolian Neolithic already, so, no, Sicilians are not, because they plot near Mycenaeans, a proxy for "East Mediterranean" populations if by that is meant populations from the area which is today Syria, Palestine and Israel, as the usual suspect is always trying to assert. Nice try but no cigar. Someone who loves PCAs suddenly can't tell how far the Mycenaeans are from Levant Bronze Age? Please....

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    The aristocratic sample was 30% Steppe (while commoners only few % Steppe):



    Modern continental Greeks have a lot more of Steppe than those Mycenaean continental commoners, while modern Cretans have much less of Steppe than that Post-Minoan aristocratic woman from Crete.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The aristocratic sample was 30% Steppe, while commoners only few % Steppe:



    Modern continental Greeks have a lot more of Steppe than those Mycenaean continental commoners, while modern Cretans have much less of Steppe than that Post-Minoan aristocratic woman from Crete.

    This leads us to the Greek Nationalist's Dilemma... :
    Yeah? Well, the royal Mycenaean male is just like commoner males, same minute amount of steppe, as directly from the paper. Did you miss that part or you hoped everyone else did?

    The "elite" female from very late Minoan times could have had ancestry from a far off place. We just don't know, but it was quite common to bring wives from far away groups.

    What high steppe in Greeks? Look carefully at the "steppe" in Greeks, and mainland Thessaly Greeks at that. Who are you trying to kid?


    You can't spread misinformation here, do you understand?

    Keep it up with the provocative posts ******** other ethnicities and you'll get another infraction. Are we clear?

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yeah? Well, the royal Mycenaean male is just like commoner males, same minute amount of steppe, as directly from the paper. Did you miss that part or you hope everyone else did?
    Evo Morales is just like commoner Quechuas. But the average landowner in Bolivia is about 30% European, while the average peasant in Bolivia is only about 5% European. However, thanks to social mobility their president is a Quechua peasant with less than 5% European. Some people become elites thanks to their merits, not blood.

    I think that the situation in Mycenaean Greece could be similar to this in modern Bolivia (with commoners being "almost pure Pelasgians", while aristocracy being on average more Steppe-admixed):


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Fire haired, can you do a d stat on south italians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Evo Morales is just like commoner Quechuas. But the average landowner in Bolivia is about 30% European, while the average peasant in Bolivia is only about 5% European. However, thanks to social mobility their president is a Quechua peasant with less than 5% European. Some people become elites thanks to their merits, not blood.

    I think that the situation in Mycenaean Greece could be similar to this in modern Bolivia (with commoners being "almost pure Pelasgians", while aristocracy being on average more Steppe-admixed):

    Read the paper, and the supplement, and the figures, all of it, including the new methodology, and while you're at it go back and read the Southeastern European paper by Iain Mathiesen, and look at the Bronze Age samples there. The Balkans, Southeastern Europe, Iberia don't fit your template...period. Too bad. Either you have no clue what you're talking about, or you just want to spread your Nordicist-Slavic supremacy nonsense. Either way, I have no time for it, so consider yourself ignored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Fire haired, can you do a d stat on south italians?
    Rob at Anthrogenica already did them. We need ancient dna from Italy badly.

    I also would like to see samples analyzed by the new tools presented in this paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yeah? Well, the royal Mycenaean male is just like commoner males, same minute amount of steppe, as directly from the paper. Did you miss that part or you hoped everyone else did?

    The "elite" female from very late Minoan times could have had ancestry from a far off place. We just don't know, but it was quite common to bring wives from far away groups.

    What high steppe in Greeks? Look carefully at the "steppe" in Greeks, and mainland Thessaly Greeks at that. Who are you trying to kid?


    You can't spread misinformation here, do you understand?

    Keep it up with the provocative posts ******** other ethnicities and you'll get another infraction. Are we clear?
    Just eyeballing it, the modern Northern Greeks look like they have about 20% "steppe" as defined by Yamnaya, and that's after the Slavic invasions and it's in the north. The Mycenaeans were at about 13%. So, I'm afraid your fantasies and your trying to provoke Greeks are not based on facts, as usual.

    Given this data, 13% steppe, why exactly would people assume we'd be finding lots of R1a? I'm not saying there isn't some and it won't show up, btw.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Razib Khan has opined.

    https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/08/02/when...-were-cyclops/

    For those who need it said over and over again...

    "About 85% of the ancestry of the Minoan samples could be modeled as being derived from Anatolian farmers, the ancestors of the “Early European Farmers” (EEF) that introduced agriculture to most of the continent, and whose heritage is most clear in modern populations among Sardinians. For the three Mycenaean samples the value is closer to 80% (though perhaps high 70s is more accurate)."

    Actually, it's only the interior isolated Sardinians, but that's nit-picking.

    "
    Now the question though is what’s the balance? For the Minoans the residual is a component which seems to derive from “Eastern Farmer” populations. Additionally the authors note that the Y chromosomes in four out of five individuals in their Mycenaean-Minoan-Anatolians are haplogroup J associated with these eastern groups, rather than the ubiquitous G2 of the earlier farmer populations. The authors suggest that in the 4th millennium B.C. there was a demographic event where this ancestral component swept west, and served as the common Mycenaean-Minoan (and Anatolian) substrate.

    Just so we're clear, not a "ton" of eastern, and not 25%.

    "
    But the Mycenaean samples (one of which was elite, two of which were not) also have a third component: affinities with steppe populations. One model which presents itself is that there was a pulse out of the Balkans, and this was part of the dynamic described in Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe. But another model, which they could not reject, is that the steppe affinity came from the east, perhaps from a proto-Armenian population. Additionally, they did not find much steppe ancestry in the Anatolian samples at all."

    "
    My own preference is for a migration through the Balkans. It seems relatively straightforward. As for why the Anatolian samples did not have the steppe ancestry, the authors provide the reasonable supposition that Indo-European in Anatolia branched off first, and the demographic signal was diluted over successor generations. Perhaps. But another aspect of Anatolia is that it seems the Hittites, the Nesa, where never a numerous population in comparison to the Hatti amongst whom they lived. Perhaps a good model for their rise and takeover may be that of the post-Roman West and the Franks in Gaul."

    I think there were more Franks in Gaul, but no matter.

    "Then the question becomes how does a less numerous people impose their language on a more numerous one? This happens. See the Hungarians for an example. In fact the paper which covered the other end of the Mediterranean, The population genomics of archaeological transition in west Iberia: Investigation of ancient substructure using imputation and haplotype-based methods, suggests that language shift can occur in unpredictable ways. On the one hand Basques seem to have mostly Indo-European Y chromosomes, but their whole genome ancestry indicates less exogenous input than their neighbors. Speaking of which, we know by the Classical period large regions of western Spain were dominated by Celtic speaking peoples, but the genetic imprint of the Indo-Europeans is still very modest in the Iberian peninsula.:"

    Maybe if it comes from a man some Neanderthals will be more willing to accept it.

    Pay attention, Tomenable:


    "
    I think what we’re seeing here is the difference between Indo-European agro-pastoralists arriving to a landscape of relatively simple societies with more primal institutions, and those who migrated into regions where local population densities are higher and social complexity is also greater. This higher social complexity means that external elites can takeover a system, as opposed to an almost animal competition for resources as seems to have occurred in Northern Europe."

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    Actually I don't even need the d-stats, but thank you. Ancient Greeks were Sicilian like, and they plot close to Sicilians. They were just how most people expected them to be. Let's all relax and enjoy the rest of the summer ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This is such an exciting paper, science is awesome.

    From Page 4:

    "We estimated the fixation index, FST, of Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that Mycenaeans were least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resembled present-day inhabitants from the same region(Extended Data Fig. 7)"

    Figure 2:



    Extended Figure 7:

    Yes it is awesome. This looks like genetic relatedness or continuity to my layperson's eyes. If true, I hope this finally puts to rest the ideas that Greeks and other regional peoples were completely replaced by "modern" invasions--those that occurred for example from Roman times forward.

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    A great paper though somewhat inconclusive about origin of Mycenaeans, in light of the IE transition part.

    Anyway, I'm so glad that it confirms what I saw in HarappaWorld admixtures for this region. We have a transition from European Neolithic towards Anatolian Chalcolithic and Armenia BA. Though I was suspecting the transition happened during BA but Anatolian BA is shifted towards Levant BA. Well, this might depend on sampled region I guess. Theirs was from SE Anatolia. Then, I envisioned Mycenaeans coming at the end of BA with more Armenia BA admixture, bringing IE language and some steppe/NE Euro/Baloch admixture. So far so good, however, it is still possible that Mycenaeans have come from Central Europe/Hungarian BA. Tough their lack of R1 haplogroups points more to Anatolia/Armenia origin, I guess. More samples in the future should clear this up.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The aristocratic sample was 30% Steppe (while commoners only few % Steppe):



    Modern continental Greeks have a lot more of Steppe than those Mycenaean continental commoners, while modern Cretans have much less of Steppe than that Post-Minoan aristocratic woman from Crete.
    Why are you so excited about samples containing steppe admixture only. You can't like other human beings if they don't have it! Nuts!

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    This whole paper is amusing to me because I remember davidski claiming just a few weeks ago that genetically Mycenaeans would appear just like the steppe individuals. If anything it leads me to believe they came from the east.

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Actually I don't even need the d-stats, but thank you. Ancient Greeks were Sicilian like, and they plot close to Sicilians. They were just how most people expected them to be. Let's all relax and enjoy the rest of the summer ;)
    Why would the Mycenaeans be closer to Sicilians than modern Greeks though? The inhabitants of Magna Grecia mixed with the native inhabitants of the Sicily itself when they first colonized, they even considered themselves a new people, and the island has been home to everyone from the Carthaginians to the Normans. That would mean mixing with the Sicels changed very little and then they remained the same for the next 3000 years while Greece failed too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Actually I don't even need the d-stats, but thank you. Ancient Greeks were Sicilian like, and they plot close to Sicilians. They were just how most people expected them to be. Let's all relax and enjoy the rest of the summer ;)
    Well, I would gather some people are surprised, and not pleasantly so! :)

    Promenade: I remember davidski claiming just a few weeks ago that genetically Mycenaeans would appear just like the steppe individuals.

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