Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Fire Haired14]

I think Angela brought this up, it's something to consider. Some parts of Neolithic Italy could have had CHG admixture. Also, we should consider some had no WHG or maybe even Natufian stuff.

Edit: The J2b1* and I3* from Mesolithic Sardinia does suggest a Natufian affinity. J2 has been found in Natufians (J2a2) and I in Levant Neolithic. Also, J2 today peaks in SW Asia and is most diverse in SW Asia.

 

[Jovialis]

I know that Stormfront is down, and Skadi, forumbiodiversity, and theapricity are probably not far behind, but you're not going to import your garbage here and imperil this site, in case I haven't made it sufficiently clear before.

I had no idea forumbiodiversity was a racist site, never really explored it. I actually have an account there. But I only made two posts. The last day I was ever active there, was the same day I registered here, and never went back : )

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=47755

 

[Angela]

He didn't and in the next 5 years or so you'll see the same results in ancient DNA studies.

You mean like the prediction that Mycenaeans were going to be heavily steppe like, indeed, virtual transplants from Andronovo with lots of Z93?

 

[Pax Augusta]

He didn't and in the next 5 years or so you'll see the same results in ancient DNA studies.

I like American optimism.

 

[davef]

Quoting Fire Haired:
"Different models can give Greeks different Myceanean percentages. I'm sure some would give them 70% Mycenaean and some much less. It gets confusing when the proposed ancestors share ancestry. Overall Greeks are very similar to Mycenaeans"

So a model can deem some of the genes Dave's run counted as Slavic as Mycenaean and thereby boosting the Mycenaean score from 47 percent to 70? its possible to confuse or manipulate the program so it mislabels Mediterranean DNA as Slavic DNA or vice versa?

And no offense, but being roughly only half Mycenaean doesn't amount to being very similar to them.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Ok, here are the most believable scores I've gotten for Italy yet.

Bergomo: 29% Yamnaya, 58% Anatolia_Neolithic, 10% WHG, 2% CHG/IranNeo, 0.5% Natufian.
Tuscany: 23% Yamnaya, 53% Anatolia_Neolithic, 8% WHG, 7% CHG/IranNeo, 4% Natufian.
South Italy: 13% Yamnaya, 49% Anatolia_Neolithic, 7% WHG, 17% CHG/IranNeo, 15% Natufian.

Keep in mind this is what potential Near Eastern ancestors get....
Anatolia_BA: 56% Anatolia_Neolithic, 34% CHG/IranNeo, 10% Natufian.
Minoan: 78% Anatolia_Neolithic, 18% CHG/Iran Neo, 3% Natufian.
Levant_BA: 25% Anatolia_Neolithic, 18% CHG/Iran Neo, 57% Natufian.

I used David's PCA to get them. When Italians are modelled with WHG, Yamnaya, Anatolia_N, Natufian, CHG/IranN in isolation the scores always get whacky (eg, 20% WHG, 2% Yamnaya). To dodge this problem I modelled Italians with groups who have varying amounts of ancestry from each ancestor: Baalberg_MN, Iceman_MN, Minoan, Anatolia_BA, Levant_BA, and Yamnaya. Next, I got the WHG, Natufian, Anatolia_N, Iran_N/CHG scores for each of those proposed ancestors. Then I multiplied their ancestor's scores to get Anatolia_N, Yamnaya, WHG, Natufian, and Iran_N/CHG scores for Italians.

Maybe, maybe only Southern Italy has significant Levantine influence, hence their similarity to European Jews.

 

[Angela]

Ok, here are the most believable scores I've gotten for Italy yet.

Bergomo: 29% Yamnaya, 58% Anatolia_Neolithic, 10% WHG, 2% CHG/IranNeo, 0.5% Natufian.
Tuscany: 23% Yamnaya, 53% Anatolia_Neolithic, 8% WHG, 7% CHG/IranNeo, 4% Natufian.
South Italy: 13% Yamnaya, 49% Anatolia_Neolithic, 7% WHG, 17% CHG/IranNeo, 15% Natufian.

Keep in mind this is what potential Near Eastern ancestors get....
Anatolia_BA: 56% Anatolia_Neolithic, 34% CHG/IranNeo, 10% Natufian.
Minoan: 78% Anatolia_Neolithic, 18% CHG/Iran Neo, 3% Natufian.
Levant_BA: 25% Anatolia_Neolithic, 18% CHG/Iran Neo, 57% Natufian.

I used David's PCA to get them. When Italians are modelled with WHG, Yamnaya, Anatolia_N, Natufian, CHG/IranN in isolation the scores always get whacky (eg, 20% WHG, 2% Yamnaya). To dodge this problem I modelled Italians with groups who have varying amounts of ancestry from each ancestor: Baalberg_MN, Iceman_MN, Minoan, Anatolia_BA, Levant_BA, and Yamnaya. Next, I got the WHG, Natufian, Anatolia_N, Iran_N/CHG scores for each of those proposed ancestors. Then I multiplied their ancestor's scores to get Anatolia_N, Yamnaya, WHG, Natufian, and Iran_N/CHG scores for Italians.

Maybe, maybe only Southern Italy has significant Levantine influence, hence their similarity to European Jews.

As I've said before, I'm half Emilian, but the other half is Northwestern Tuscan/Eastern Ligurian, so I should have some putative "Etruscan/Iron Age Anatolian". Yet my genetics can be explained as about 39% western farmer (Neolithic and Chalcolithic Iberian), and 28% Eastern European Farmer, this latter component not including any references in Anatolia other than the earliest Neolithic, but including Early, Chalcolithic, and even LN samples from Europe. So, 68%. I only get 3.4% Iran/CHG type ancestry, and 3.3% Levant Neolithic. I also come out as 25.7 Yamnaya

The Yamnaya percentage (average of Bergamo and Toscana) correlates with my score, as does, roughly, Natufian, but my CHG/Iran like component is less than the average of your Bergamo and Toscana, and the Neolithic type ancestry is quite different, largely because I get no WHG whatsoever, probably because I have so much Iberian Chalcolithic, which is 15-25% WHG, very close to what the Basque get. The latter is why my Oracles sometimes come out as majority Iberian and minority Greek. Iberian samples often turn up very often if they're included in the reference set.

 

[LATGAL]

Tomenable/Polish: 8.4

Tomen's result was interesting, I wonder what Poles generally get there. There always seemed to be something southern/"exotic" in his results compared to other Poles when I saw them. Maybe he can chime in if he sees this.

So you're basically the "steppe Italian" and he's the "farmer Pole", both with a preference for the opposite populations. :grin:

Ok, here are the most believable scores I've gotten for Italy yet. Maybe, maybe only Southern Italy has significant Levantine influence, hence their similarity to European Jews.

What do you get for any Greek samples using the same method? I think South Italy/Sicily and Greek islanders both have some post Bronze Age eastern influence, though perhaps more Bronze Age Anatolian-like for Greeks, judging by the Sarno et al. paper.

 

[Pratt]

So a model can deem some of the genes Dave's run counted as Slavic as Mycenaean and thereby boosting the Mycenaean score from 47 percent to 70? its possible to confuse or manipulate the program so it mislabels Mediterranean DNA as Slavic DNA or vice versa?.

qpAdm is not so different from nMonte. How can you see yourself Iran_Chl is far more distant from the European cluster, the Roman outlier, which is between the Levant and Cyprus, is much closer.

If I model the Greeks like 10% Iran Chl then this allows me to boost their admixture steppe (bohemian Slav, Unetice or anything else), because they have to go back to their position (and this is also true for any ethnicity). Anyway there are a lot of Unetice samples, not all are so similar, while there are only two "Bohemian" Slavs.

Of course David is using other samples and another type of calculator. But in the end we should always read the results between the lines. And these results may vary considerably based on the samples you use and choose.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Mycenean+Medieval Slav, is the best ancient genomes-only fit for modern Greeks. I don't know where those modern Greeks are from. I've read that Steppe-rich (supposedly Slavic) admixture is high in some parts of Greece and low in other parts.

Eurogenes; Modern-day Greeks & Italians vs Mycenaeans
Greek
Iran_ChL 0.090±0.071
Mycenaean 0.478±0.103
Slav_Bohemia 0.432±0.077
P-value 0.461783732
chisq 12.820

Something seems very wrong. How can there be such a high difference in Slavic ancestry between these Greeks and Pelopponesians in the other study, in which Slavic ancestry is much lower?

Eurogenes said that Slavic ancestry was much lower in the Peloponnesians because Slavs were already admixed with Balkanites when they invaded. Now in this analysis they are almost pure, for Greeks to have such a high amount of Slavic? Which is it, some parts of Greece took in almost pure Slavs but southern Greece took in Slavs that were already heavily admixed?

 

[Angela]

Tomen's result was interesting, I wonder what Poles generally get there. There always seemed to be something southern/"exotic" in his results compared to other Poles when I saw them. Maybe he can chime in if he sees this.

So you're basically the "steppe Italian" and he's the "farmer Pole", both with a preference for the opposite populations. :grin:

I definitely wouldn't say that. After all, we have very few Italian results for this, and yet Regio X's parents have virtually the same amount of steppe as I do. I also hardly think I have a "preference for the opposite population" when I'm 74% "farmer" when you add up the western and eastern.

What may surprise some people is that our steppe, approximately 26%, is, on this calculator, within one point of someone like Northerner, who is North Sea German, and not very far away from the 31-33% of a lot of northern Euopeans and even of Ukrainians. The difference is the high amounts of additional WHG they get, which I've been saying for years would be the case.

 

[LATGAL]

Of course Angela, I was just joking about some past conversations.

It's an interesting calculator anyway, seems to broadly agree with other methods and calculators too.

Something seems very wrong. How can there be such a high difference in Slavic ancestry between these Greeks and Pelopponesians in the other study, in which Slavic ancestry is much lower?

Eurogenes said that Slavic ancestry was much lower in the Peloponnesians because Slavs were already admixed with Balkanites when they invaded. Now in this analysis they are almost pure, for Greeks to have such a high amount of Slavic? Which is it, some parts of Greece took in almost pure Slavs but southern Greece took in Slavs that were already heavily admixed?

These Greeks are probably native Macedonian if he used that Thessaloniki dataset. Northern Greeks definitely have more 'northeast' type of ancestry compared to southern ones, and much of it must be genuinely early Slavic, but some of the big differences are obviously due to the population references. And we don't know exactly what Macedonia looked exactly compared to the Peloponnese either at the time yet (back then, Lower Macedonia would have been home to various non-Greek-speaking populations before the Argead conquest during Archaic times, even if genetically similar, as well). I'd assume somewhat more steppe for ancient times, just because they were closer to the source if anything.

 

[Fire Haired14]

What do you get for any Greek samples using the same method? I think South Italy/Sicily and Greek islanders both have some post Bronze Age eastern influence, though perhaps more Bronze Age Anatolian-like for Greeks, judging by the Sarno et al. paper.

Thessaly: 52.3% Barcin_N, 29.3% Yamnaya, 6.5% WHG, 8.2% CHG/IranNeo, 3.8% Natufian.
Peloponnese: 46.6% Barcin_N, 29.3% Yamnaya, 5% WHG, 11% CHG/IranNeo, 8.2% Natufian.
Macedonia: 48.6% Barcin_N, 30.75% Yamnaya, 3% WHG, 12.2% CHG/IranNeo, 5.4% Natufian.

Minoan: 78% Barcin_N, 18% CHG/IranNeo, 3.2% Natufian.
Mycenean: 68% Barcin_N, 13% Yamnaya, 16% CHG/Iran Neo, 0% Natufian

 

[Fire Haired14]

Cypriot might be the modern population most similar to Minoans and Anatolia_BA. Cypriots are more or less intermediate between Minoan and Anatolia_BA in terms of AnatoliaNeo/CHG ancestry and also have an addition of Natufian stuff.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Oh yeah btw for all the haters, it looks I was right about Cypriots being a good proxy for the "recent" Near Eastern ancestry in Europe.

 

[ihype02]

@curious cat,
Your country flag does not reflect your IP address location, which is London. That is grounds for an infraction. Please correct it.
@ihype
The same goes for you, as your IP address is from Hungary and you are flying the Albanian flag.

The Albanian flag represents my nationality. And I have never visited Hungary in my whole life.
If you insist I can tell my adress in private. Such a ridiculous site.
And I feel very insulted by all this.

 

[curiouscat]

Yeah but his models are giving 50 something percent Mycenaean to Sicily and 47 percent to Greece. They kinda contradict the idea that Greeks are closer.

But I'll admit, I'm not implying that south Italians are closer; in fact, i still find it doubtful that your average Joe Greek has that little Mycenaean and that much Slavic.

And Pax Augusta posted results taken from a northern sample showing 3/4 Mycenaean, 1/4 slavic.

The models Pax Augusta used were the same which showed Ashkenazi Jews to be 90% Mycenaean. It's very certain when using modern samples the Myceanean ancestry instantly get reduced, especially when the subject is South Slavic populations that generally don't differ as dramatically from Mainland Greeks as some users would expect.

Polako is a geneticist with years of experience in his field so arguing with him about admixture would be like if someone imply he knows how to drive a F1 racing car better than Lewis Hamilton.

 

[davef]

The models Pax Augusta used were the same which showed Ashkenazi Jews to be 90% Mycenaean. It's very certain when using modern samples the Myceanean ancestry instantly get reduced, especially when the subject is South Slavic populations that generally don't differ as dramatically from Mainland Greeks as some users would expect.

Polako is a geneticist with years of experience in his field so arguing with him about admixture would be like if someone imply he knows how to drive a F1 racing car better than Lewis Hamilton.

I can drive better than Lewis Hamilton :cool-v:
bc I'm the man

 

[Promenade]

So the same guy telling us that Mycenaeans would be nearly identical to steppe individuals is now claiming that modern greeks have more steppe ancestry than Mycenaeans because modern Greeks derive around half their ancestry from Slavic invaders? Quite the turn around in belief in such a short period.

 

[Pax Augusta]

The models Pax Augusta used were the same which showed Ashkenazi Jews to be 90% Mycenaean. It's very certain when using modern samples the Myceanean ancestry instantly get reduced, especially when the subject is South Slavic populations that generally don't differ as dramatically from Mainland Greeks as some users would expect.
Polako is a geneticist with years of experience in his field so arguing with him about admixture would be like if someone imply he knows how to drive a F1 racing car better than Lewis Hamilton.

Can you show me the academic curriculum vitae of "geneticist" Polako? In what university did he earn the Ph.D? And in which university does he teach?

Those models were not done by me but by someone who is not less "geneticist" than Polako.