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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Being totally southern Italian myself, I only get 2.4% Levant according to geneplaza. Which is actually the lowest score I've personally seen posted thus far. Not that it matters to me anyway, and It wouldn't bother me either if it was much higher. Everyone should be proud of who they are, no matter where they come from. I too know a lot of great people who are middle eastern, that have a far better character than those racist, inadequate, sorry excuse for human beings.
    Those are people who probably never met Middle Easterners in person and likely get their "knowledge" about them from Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, Stormfront posts, and their fellow Knights.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    The last joke on Anthrogenica is that these are not true Etruscans, they are "Italic", so not true Etruscans. Some users are really pathetic and haven't any knowledge. Italics? Before the Etruscan civilization in Etruria there was the Villanovan culture that was very likely one of the proto-Italic cultures. And Villanovans are the ancestors of Etruscans since it is unlikely that they suddenly disappeared!

    These Etruscan samples are from Stanford. But you know, the average Anthrogenica poster knows more than any Stanford or Harvard Ph.D.




    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^The models which were posted for Greeks which used the Roman Outlier were, so far as I remember, based on the standard Greek sample for Thessaly, and not on Island Greeks, so wrong on all accounts.
    According to anthrobloggers and papers Greek islanders don't exist! In Greece they are all Thessalian or Macedonian. On the other hand Sicily is divided into west, south, center, north, east. In Sicily you drive 50 kilometers by car and you suddenly find yourself in front of another completely different population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Those are people who probably never met Middle Easterners in person and likely get their "knowledge" about them from Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, Stormfront posts, and their fellow Knights.
    Still wrong. Why do you keep posting disinformation? First it was that those models posted on here and at anthrogenica which used the Roman outlier were Greek Islanders when it was mainland Greeks. Now this...

    That stuff all comes from late 19th century English and German "anthropologists" and "historians", and from Vienna and Germany between the wars, and from institutes set up in Nazi Germany, and then expounded upon on Stormfront, and forumbiodiversity, and theapricity, one of whose shining lights (he had some "Roman" name, I think) was arrested in Europe. It's now part of standard reading and discussion in Eastern Europe where they still want to hunt the Jews although there aren't any Jews left there. I used to wonder why the survivors didn't go back; no more.

    There are American Nazis who spout this stuff too. When I first got into this "hobby" there was some man, Spencer or something was it, whom all of those morons were quoting. I posted a link to a rally where they were drinking and pouring milk on themselves to show how Aryan and Indo-European they were...if it weren't so grotesquely pathetic it would be funny.

    Sikeliot is a bit of a case apart. As Portuguese princess he was part of the Spanish Nordic group intent on proving Spaniards were really Brits in disguise and not Southern Europeans. They've been pretty quiet since paper after paper shows that they're the most EN population in Europe and have North African and a few percent SSA. There are thousands of posts here from them on that topic which I know you've read so don't pretend otherwise. He has said he has Lebanese and Syrian boyfriends. Whether that motivates his desire to find that ancestry in his partial Italian ancestry, if it even exists, I don't know, but it certainly might spark the anti-Semitism marked his personal life at university. He's notorious there. That's what has happened to post modern liberalism: trigger happy, childish, practically illiterate campus Marxists who've never really worked a day in their lives who now hate Jews. You can't make this stuff up.

    These people are toxic, disturbed to put it mildly. The vast majority of American conservatives don't have a clue about this crap and you know it. Stop trying to deflect blame elsewhere.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The last joke on Anthrogenica is that these are not true Etruscans, they are "Italic", so not true Etruscans. Some users are really pathetic and haven't any knowledge. Italics? Before the Etruscan civilization in Etruria there was the Villanovan culture that was very likely one of the proto-Italic cultures. And Villanovans are the ancestors of Etruscans since it is unlikely that they suddenly disappeared!

    These Etruscan samples are from Stanford. But you know, the average Anthrogenica poster knows more than any Stanford or Harvard Ph.D.






    According to anthrobloggers and papers Greek islanders don't exist! In Greece they are all Thessalian or Macedonian. On the other hand Sicily is divided into west, south, center, north, east. In Sicily you drive 50 kilometers by car and you suddenly find yourself in front of another completely different population.
    I don't understand. How can they be "Italics" if academics labeled them Etruscan? The samples must come from Etruscan graves, yes? Do they mean the samples are probably mixed people with both "intrusive" ancestry and Italic ancestry? Well, that may or may not be the case, you'd need a lot of analysis to figure that out, but even if it were the case, that's the situation all over Europe. Whole lot of "mixing" going on all over the place. :) If the elite Etruscans looked like this, and only the elite ones were buried like that, then how much additional "Near Eastern" could they have gotten?

    Honestly, talk about how to put on display that you're an idiot.

    Why the papers don't use the Greek Islander samples I don't know. It doesn't really make sense. Maybe for the same reason they only used to use Bergamo and TSI? Maybe no academics have really sampled there?

    Also, why would the IBS sample be half Catalan and half Andalucia? Half Catalan is a stretch anyway, but then we now know that half of Andalucia was populated by people from the north so for the sample to be even half way accurate, it should have come from the part of Andalucia where that didn't happen.

    On the other hand, according to Ralph and Coop the Spaniards are pretty well mixed, so maybe it doesn't matter. The Island Greeks are definitely different than people from northern Greek, however, so they really should include Island Greeks in big papers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Still wrong. Why do you keep posting disinformation? First it was that those models posted on here and at anthrogenica which used the Roman outlier were Greek Islanders when it was mainland Greeks. Now this...

    That stuff all comes from late 19th century English and German "anthropologists" and "historians", and from Vienna and Germany between the wars, and from institutes set up in Nazi Germany, and then expounded upon on Stormfront, and forumbiodiversity, and theapricity, one of whose shining lights (he had some "Roman" name, I think) was arrested in Europe. It's now part of standard reading and discussion in Eastern Europe where they still want to hunt the Jews although there aren't any Jews left there. I used to wonder why the survivors didn't go back; no more.

    There are American Nazis who spout this stuff too. When I first got into this "hobby" there was some man, Spencer or something was it, whom all of those morons were quoting. I posted a link to a rally where they were drinking and pouring milk on themselves to show how Aryan and Indo-European they were...if it weren't so grotesquely pathetic it would be funny.

    Sikeliot is a bit of a case apart. As Portuguese princess he was part of the Spanish Nordic group intent on proving Spaniards were really Brits in disguise and not Southern Europeans. They've been pretty quiet since paper after paper shows that they're the most EN population in Europe and have North African and a few percent SSA. There are thousands of posts here from them on that topic which I know you've read so don't pretend otherwise. He has said he has Lebanese and Syrian boyfriends. Whether that motivates his desire to find that ancestry in his partial Italian ancestry, if it even exists, I don't know, but it certainly might spark the anti-Semitism marked his personal life at university. He's notorious there. That's what has happened to post modern liberalism: trigger happy, childish, practically illiterate campus Marxists who've never really worked a day in their lives who now hate Jews. You can't make this stuff up.

    These people are toxic, disturbed to put it mildly. The vast majority of American conservatives don't have a clue about this crap and you know it. Stop trying to deflect blame elsewhere.

    Oh no I wasn't trying to pick on the Republican Party. We need republicans as well as democrats, I was making jabs at Rush Limbaugh and other crazy talk show hosts as well as racists who don't represent all conservatives in the very least in the same way flag burners don't represent liberals. I would never burn a flag or disrespect the police or a wealthy CEO who rose through the ranks without cheating the system...nor would I discriminate against Muslims or gays.

    I don't support Trump but I'm not out to occupy Wall Street either.

    That post was in some ways just a joke post in response to Jovialis and I didn't really expect it to be taken seriously, no offense.

    Sorry for causing a stir

    In a nutshell: I was poking fun at crazy talk show hosts and racists, and it wasn't a serious post, just a quick jab in support of Jovialis's post about people who discriminate against the Middle East. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^The models which were posted for Greeks which used the Roman Outlier were, so far as I remember, based on the standard Greek sample for Thessaly, and not on Island Greeks, so wrong on all accounts.
    Oh, I never said they were based on island Greeks. What made you think that? Seriously, I'm eager to know. Where did I say "Pratt used island Greeks?" Did I say anything about island Greeks when describing his intentions or any Greek group in particular? If you could point me in the right direction, sweet! I was describing what Pratt was trying to convey in general in paragraph 1, where those tools can be used to be deceptive. I wasn't trying to spread misinformation, trust me, we cool? ;).


    And when I began discussing Greeks in the second paragraph, I was referring to the garbage posted by other members like LATGAL two months ago who insisted those things without even using any modeling or paper whatsoever.
    Last edited by davef; 23-11-17 at 08:57.

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    "There are American Nazis who spout this stuff too. When I first got into this "hobby" there was some man, Spencer or something was it, whom all of those morons were quoting. I posted a link to a rally where they were drinking and pouring milk on themselves to show how Aryan and Indo-European they were...if it weren't so grotesquely pathetic it would be funny."

    Wow, crazy stuff
    Last edited by davef; 23-11-17 at 08:53.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I am pretty sure 'Sikeliot' is a persona. I doubt what he says about his ancestry and his sexual identity is true.

    Maybe his role is to attract visitors on those websites, especially on The Apricity.

    Concerning slaves, at least in 'Classical Greece' the funny thing is that they would have introduced extra EHG and CHG admixture (which combined may appear as Yamnaya-like) and not extra 'Near Eastern' and another funny thing is that in Hellenic mythology we have 3 'MENA' mythical figures that come to Hellas and rule as kings (Danaus, Cadmus, Pelops)

    [I don't say that these myths represent real movements but the bias is obvious when any extra (if any) 'Middle Eastern' admixture is attributed to slaves, while any extra northern admixture is attributed to some short of conquerors]

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    "There are American Nazis who spout this stuff too. When I first got into this "hobby" there was some man, Spencer or something was it, whom all of those morons were quoting. I posted a link to a rally where they were drinking and pouring milk on themselves to show how Aryan and Indo-European they were...if it weren't so grotesquely pathetic it would be funny."

    Wow, crazy stuff
    Hopefully that clip can be found on YouTube, i bet its grousteque patheticness makes it all the more hilarious!!

    Hopefully it got enough views, thus more people are aware of these morons.

    And from what I've seen on tv or posted on the internet, a lot of these people who join the klan or Nazi party seem below average in many different ways in terms of ability and education, so they use these groups as some sort of platform to boost their self esteem.

    i apologize for going off topic btw

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Anyone can have any view they choose, of course. :) I only gave mine. We're in a very subjective area here. No hard data for this kind of discussion, unlike much of what we've been discussing.

    Without a certain autosomal genetic mix, imo, you don't have an "ethnicity", although of course that ethnic group also has a certain history and culture.

    Just as one example, we now have African and Chinese or Southeast Asian Italians. They are Italian citizens just as much as I am, and should have all the same rights, but they're not "ethnically" Italian. Of course, they may change what is "ethnically" Italian a few hundred years down the line.
    I agree. Time is one element in the equation; ethnicity is a cumulative result where birthplace, education and life place (except for nomadic groups) so shared collective contacts and culture, language, ancestors have to add up, the genetic aspect being by force associated to ancestors, whatever it can change, slowly, by time. I say it in kind of disorder but...

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    Slaves!!!!!

    hmmm

    we are stuck with the USA South.
    and South America slave merchantise that occured 2-3 centuries before,
    or even to USA civil war,
    some maybe are stuck to the British/India model,
    were 'slaves' were workers, devoted to master, but get paid

    So we all believe that Slaves should be black, or dark,
    surely Africans or Asians,

    But lets go back to Roman empire,
    especially the women,
    I suggest read the Roman laws for a brothel,
    All prostitudes should be blonde,
    and if not they should paint their hairs blonde,
    why?
    cause surely at Roman empire,
    and surely before,
    slavery had no colour,
    neither continental origin,
    how many Romans had British, Gaulish, Germanic, Thracian and Greek Slaves?

    so the Question is,
    except Africa and Asia,
    Did some change of population could happened by European slaves?
    the answer is Yes
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    And when I began discussing Greeks in the second paragraph, I was referring to the garbage posted by other members like LATGAL two months ago who insisted those things without even using any modeling or paper whatsoever.
    I kinda feel bad for sorta reviving this thread after what has been getting posted in the last couple of months since the initial analysis ran out of steam [DuPidh was a bit of a highlight with his "classical Greek =/= classical Hellene" but the accusations of political correctness about the current samples we have were close. I haven't kept up with the forum on other topics like the recent, very interesting African (North and East) papers but I assume they didn't attract all this weirdness since fewer apparently clueless people felt free to chime in, due to the weird position the ancient Mediterranean has in the western narrative + the sometimes Balkan infighting] but I'm not sure why you think what I wrote was "garbage".

    I actually even made reference to a recent paper, Sarno et al (2017) which shows some of the same stuff (at least as I interpret it) that I've seen in all sorts of analyses, amateur and peer-reviewed, in the past. A necessary disclaimer that I keep repeating too (as Angela and other Italian posters do) is that right now we only have very few ancient samples from the southern Balkans and none from most of Italy and none more recent than the Bronze Age (except one Iron Age northern Thracian woman) so there's no need to jump to any conclusions yet about chronology and specifics but the general things I wrote about Greek islanders and South Italians-Sicilians apparently having more recent than the Bronze Age Near Eastern ancestry (and of maybe somewhat different kinds, with more Caucasian-type-weighed stuff in Greek islanders and more Levantine-type-weighted stuff in South Italians-Sicilians so maybe Anatolia/Caucasus/Armenia vs Levant/North Africa) than the rest of the Greeks and Italians seems to be the case to me.

    On the other hand, mainland Greeks and Tosk Albanians seem to have been impacted a bit more from later migrations from the North (Slavs etc.) compared to the seemingly more "genetically conservative" Gheg Albanians (e.g. look at the somewhat higher "(Northern) European" and lower "Sardinian" components mainland Greeks and Tosks vs Ghegs get in Sarno et al which also agrees with other considerations like Y-DNA, PCA positions, various calculators). Similarly, on preliminary aDNA samples and from what I've seen in various analyses, my impression is that Tuscans seem to have preserved a sort of "Southeast European Bronze Age" type of ancestry (i.e. very high in actual Anatolia_N, some Caucasus-Iran, relatively low in steppe, and little -much less than South Italians- Levant_N type stuff; which we know that the current Peloponnesean Mycenaeans and Cretan Minoans don't seem to show, the spatiotemporally closest sample that exhibits some Levant is the Anatolia_BA sample) a bit better than most of the Balkans, even the south Balkans. All these can be revised when ancient population structure is better elucidated of course (the low-quality Armenoi sample from the same exact region or all the variance in the Matthieson et al. Balkan samples already show us that population structure is quite likely).

    As a somewhat aside but since they were brought up, the non-Basque Iberians do seem to show quite a bit and likely post Bronze Age Near Eastern admixture as well so it's not surprising that they can be modelled well using the Roman outlier. At least I remember thinking so when I compared them to the Bronze Age Iberian samples, though the main difference is a big increase in steppe-like ancestry since then, like in the Balkan mainland. Obviously without really proximate sources, the modelling doesn't have to be taken 100% at face value.

    Those were the basic points I made back then. You might be mistaken that I care whether this or that Greek sub-population has this or that sort of admixture or that I consider it a slight but it's clear that all populations have acquired quite a bit (some more, some less) post Bronze Age, anyway, from the regions they most kept in contact with...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    On the other hand, mainland Greeks and Tosk Albanians seem to have been impacted a bit more from later migrations from the North (Slavs etc.) compared to the seemingly more "genetically conservative" Gheg Albanians (e.g. look at the somewhat higher "(Northern) European" and lower "Sardinian" components mainland Greeks and Tosks vs Ghegs get in Sarno et al which also agrees with other considerations like Y-DNA, PCA positions, various calculators).
    Gheg Albanians have higher Northern European component than all the Greeks and Tosk Albanians. How can mainland Greeks and Tosk Albanians have been more impacted from later migrations from the North (Slavs etc.) than Ghegs? This can imply only that Greeks and Tosk Albanians were much more southern genetically than Ghegs.

    And what do Gheghs have to do with Greeks? There is no proof either that Gheg Albanians are more "genetically conservative", since they have always lived closer to southern Slavs than Greeks and Tosk Albanians.

    I understand that there is an attempt to overthrow everything and present the Greeks (also by some Greek users themselves?), as a sort of Slavic population, but lies have short legs.


    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    Similarly, on preliminary aDNA samples and from what I've seen in various analyses, my impression is that Tuscans seem to have preserved a sort of "Southeast European Bronze Age" type of ancestry (i.e. very high in actual Anatolia_N, some Caucasus-Iran, relatively low in steppe, and little -much less than South Italians- Levant_N type stuff; which we know that the current Peloponnesean Mycenaeans and Cretan Minoans don't seem to show, the spatiotemporally closest sample that exhibits some Levant is the Anatolia_BA sample) a bit better than most of the Balkans, even the south Balkans. All these can be revised when ancient population structure is better elucidated of course (the low-quality Armenoi sample from the same exact region or all the variance in the Matthieson et al. Balkan samples already show us that population structure is quite likely).
    I understand, we are always within the same attempt: "Greeks are Slavic, Greeks are western".

    According to Haak Tuscans have higher steppe ancestry than Greeks and Albanians. How can Tuscans have preserved a sort of "Southeast European Bronze Age" a bit better than most Balkans and even south Balkans if Tuscans are more western than them in every decent PCA? Not to mention that the sample used for Tuscans is from southern Tuscany and it exists an internal cline in Tuscany with a true Tuscan average more northern-western than this sample.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    "I actually even made reference to a recent paper, Sarno et al (2017) which shows some of the same stuff (at least as I interpret it) that I've seen in all sorts of analyses, amateur and peer-reviewed, in the past."

    Can you post what you found in that study?

    And what does your username mean, exactly? Is it some sort of acronym? Just curious

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    @Latgal,
    Perhaps it would help if actual academic data and comparisons to actual ancient samples was the source of our "impressions", and not old analyses based on old 23andme clusters and the calculators based on modern populations found on gedmatch. Your post sounds reminiscent of "The World According to Sikeliot" from three to five years ago. There have been a lot of papers and a lot of new statistical analysis since then. I don't understand why, in general, so much of that data hasn't been incorporated by various ethnic groups or internet "experts". Is it because the papers are too hard to read and understand for a lot of people, or the statistics are too difficult, or because they don't fit whatever narrative is being pushed?

    I don't know what the ancient dna will show (there goes that disclaimer again) in terms of strictly Italian genetics, but I know that modern Tuscans have more steppe than the Spanish, the mainland Greeks, and the Albanians, despite whatever "Slavic" input they received in the early Medieval period, as Pax pointed out. Maybe seeing a visual will help.


    This formulation that the modern Tuscans are a "Bronze Age Southeastern European remnant", which is an extremely speculative comment btw, sounds like Sikeliot reading my posts here and only partly understanding them, or, as he's been doing since 23andme days, twisting what I write. Yes, some ancient samples from the Balkans were described in papers as "Tuscan like", just as the recent poster about ancient Lombard dna describes some samples from the early medieval period, not the Bronze Age mind you, as "Tuscan like". However, these authors are, perhaps for reasons of economy, using only the 1000 genomes data. Had Bulgarians or Romanians, for example, or even Albanians been included in the analysis, perhaps they would have been described as Romanian like or Bulgarian like or even Albanian like. Didn't one of those samples actually land in modern day Bulgaria?

    All this means is that the steppe peoples didn't change the genetics of Southern Europeans and perhaps even people like the ones in Pannonia, although that's very speculative, as much as they did the people of Poland, or Germany, or Britain. It also means that when trying to figure out how Northern Italians became Northern Italians, or Tuscans became Tuscans, you have to consider migrations like those of the Celts and the Goths and the Lombards, just as when figuring out mainland Greek genetics you have to consider the Slavs. Genetic change was still going on in Europe in the early Medieval period even as far north as England, where we have the Anglo-Saxon invasions.

    Now, as to this perpetual obsession with who has more "Near Eastern" or "Levantine", the Greeks of various sorts or the Southern Italians...my God don't you people ever get bored with this?

    Anyway, even the calculator results based on modern populations which are so loved by some people show that the "Caucasus" or Near Eastern in mainland Greeks is at least equal to if not larger than in southern Italians/Sicilians. In Dodecad it's actually larger in mainland Greece. How many times does it have to be repeated? The same is true for Albanians versus Tuscans. The "eastern" pull is partly the pull toward CHG, get it?

    See: dodecad K12b below for "Caucasus" scores:
    Greeks 37.4
    Southern Italians/Sicilians 36.5

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...hl=en_US#gid=0

    Drum roll please: The Southern Italians/Sicilians have two points more "Southwest Asian" or Levantine than mainland Greeks. BIG WHOOPS! Is it like a thermometer? Anything over 10%, i.e. 12% makes you suddenly Lebanese? No disrespect to the Lebanese btw. I'd rather my kids had a few percent more from people like them than from some other groups I could name.

    Pray tell, where is this big difference between these two groups of people in terms of Near Eastern and Levantine, other than in the fevered brain of the usual suspect? Look, I get it. No one wants to see 50,000 posts go into the trash bin, but the data is the data.

    The other differences have to do with the fact that the "northern" influence in Greeks is more "Northern" Europe, which in most calculators is really "Northeastern" European, and in Italians it's Germano/Celtic. Anyone who knows any European history whatsoever would have known that even if dna was never analyzed.

    That's not even discussing the Greek Islanders.

    Take a look at the PCA from the Mycenaean paper for goodness sakes. Albanians and mainland Greeks are pulled toward the Caucasus compared to Tuscans not because they have more total "steppe", but because they have more of the CHG component which also came to them independently of steppe movements. That applies to Sicilians as well. Now, when all those elements arrived in all these areas is going to have to wait for more ancient dna, not just from Italy, but also from Greece, because we have no Classical Era Greek samples.

    Or go to the thread on the Geneplaza calculator based on ancient samples.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ight=Geneplaza

    Whether certain people like it or not, Mycenaeans land smack dab on top of Sicilians.

    I'm tired of pointing out the same data and papers over and over again. Just read the papers and stop with the amateur analysis from five years ago.

    @Davef,
    Sarno et al is strictly about Italian genetics. This thread is about the Mycenaeans and Minoans. Sarno is also a mess of a paper based strictly on modern populations.

    We've been side-tracked enough. Back on topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Latgal,
    Perhaps it would help if actual academic data and comparisons to actual ancient samples was the source of our "impressions", and not old analyses based on old 23andme clusters and the calculators based on modern populations found on gedmatch. Your post sounds reminiscent of "The World According to Sikeliot" from three years ago. There have been a lot of papers and a lot of new statistical analysis since then. I don't understand why, in general, so much of that data that hasn't been incorporated by various ethnic groups or internet t-rolls. Is it because the papers are too hard to read and understand for a lot of people, or the statistics are too difficult, or because they don't fit whatever narrative is being pushed?

    I don't know what the ancient dna will show (there goes that disclaimer again), but I know that Tuscans have more steppe than the Spanish, the mainland Greeks, and the Albanians, despite whatever "Slavic" input they received in the early Medieval period, as Pax pointed out. Maybe seeing a visual will help.


    This formulation that the Tuscans are a "Bronze Age Southeastern European remnant", which is an extremely speculative comment btw, sounds like Sikeliot reading my posts here and only partly understanding them, or, as he's been doing since 23andme, twisting what I write. Yes, some ancient samples from the Balkans were described in papers as "Tuscan like", just as the recent poster about ancient Lombard dna describes some samples from the early medieval period, not the Bronze Age mind you, as "Tuscan like". However, these authors are, perhaps for reasons of economy, using only the 1000 genomes data. Had Bulgarians or Romanians, for example, or even Albanians been included in the analysis, perhaps they would have been described as Romanian like or Bulgarian like or even Albanian like. Didn't one of those samples actually land in modern day Bulgaria?

    All this means is that the steppe peoples didn't change the genetics of Southern Europeans and perhaps even people like the ones in Pannonia, although that's very speculative, as much as they did the people of Poland, or Germany, or Britain. It also means that when trying to figure out how Northern Italians became Northern Italians, or Tuscans became Tuscans, you have to consider migrations like those of the Celts and the Goths and the Lombards, just as when figuring out mainland Greek genetics you have to consider the Slavs. Genetic change was still going on in Europe in the early Medieval period even as far north as England, where we have the Anglo-Saxon invasions.

    Now, as to this perpetual obsession with who has more "Near Eastern" or "Levantine", the Greeks of various sorts or the Southern Italians...my God don't you people ever get bored with this?

    Anyway, even the calculator results based on modern populations which are so loved by some people show that the "Caucasus" or Near Eastern in mainland Greeks is at least equal to if not larger than in southern Italians/Sicilians. How many times does it have to be repeated? The same is true for Albanians versus Tuscans. The "eastern" pull is the pull toward CHG, get it?

    See: dodecad K12b below for "Caucasus" scores:
    Greeks 37.4
    Southern Italians/Sicilians 36.5

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...hl=en_US#gid=0

    Drum roll please: The Southern Italians/Sicilians have two points more "Southwest Asian" or Levantine. BIG WHOOPS! Is it like a thermometer? Anything over 10%, i.e. 12% makes you suddenly Lebanese? No disrespect to the Lebanese btw. I'd rather my kids had a few percent more from people like them than from some other groups I could name.

    Pray tell, where is this big difference between these two groups of people in terms of Near Eastern and Levantine, other than in the fevered brain of the usual suspect? Look, I get it. No one wants to see 50,000 posts go into the trash bin, but the data is the data.

    The other differences have to do with the fact that the "northern" influence in Greeks is more "Northern" Europe, which in most calculators is really "Northeastern" European, and in Italians it's Germano/Celtic.

    That's not even discussing the Greek Islanders.

    Take a look at the PCA from the Mycenaean paper for goodness sakes. Albanians and mainland Greeks are pulled toward the Caucasus compared to Tuscans, compared to Sicilians as well. Or go to the thread on the Geneplaza calculator based on ancient samples.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ight=Geneplaza

    Whether certain people like it or not, Mycenaeans land smack dab on top of Sicilians.

    I'm tired of pointing out the same data and papers over and over again. Just read the papers and stop with the amateur analysis from five years ago.

    @Davef,
    Sarno et al is strictly about Italian genetics. This thread is about the Mycenaeans and Minoans. Sarno is also a mess of a paper based strictly on modern populations.

    We've been side-tracked enough. Back on topic.
    I would've upvoted this until my thumb falls off!

    Yes in the professional paper published by Harvard researchers, that's where they plot but apparently they're no match for the superior intellects running the blogs or posting their agendas in stormfront or other such sites.

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    An
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    "I actually even made reference to a recent paper, Sarno et al (2017) which shows some of the same stuff (at least as I interpret it) that I've seen in all sorts of analyses, amateur and peer-reviewed, in the past."

    Can you post what you found in that study?

    And what does your username mean, exactly? Is it some sort of acronym? Just curious
    Where did I go wrong with this post? I'll be happy to know so I know what not to say next time, I'll accept a pm if you want to keep things private.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Latgal,
    Perhaps it would help if actual academic data and comparisons to actual ancient samples was the source of our "impressions", and not old analyses based on old 23andme clusters and the calculators based on modern populations found on gedmatch. Your post sounds reminiscent of "The World According to Sikeliot" from three to five years ago. There have been a lot of papers and a lot of new statistical analysis since then. I don't understand why, in general, so much of that data hasn't been incorporated by various ethnic groups or internet "experts". Is it because the papers are too hard to read and understand for a lot of people, or the statistics are too difficult, or because they don't fit whatever narrative is being pushed?

    I don't know what the ancient dna will show (there goes that disclaimer again) in terms of strictly Italian genetics, but I know that modern Tuscans have more steppe than the Spanish, the mainland Greeks, and the Albanians, despite whatever "Slavic" input they received in the early Medieval period, as Pax pointed out. Maybe seeing a visual will help.


    This formulation that the modern Tuscans are a "Bronze Age Southeastern European remnant", which is an extremely speculative comment btw, sounds like Sikeliot reading my posts here and only partly understanding them, or, as he's been doing since 23andme days, twisting what I write. Yes, some ancient samples from the Balkans were described in papers as "Tuscan like", just as the recent poster about ancient Lombard dna describes some samples from the early medieval period, not the Bronze Age mind you, as "Tuscan like". However, these authors are, perhaps for reasons of economy, using only the 1000 genomes data. Had Bulgarians or Romanians, for example, or even Albanians been included in the analysis, perhaps they would have been described as Romanian like or Bulgarian like or even Albanian like. Didn't one of those samples actually land in modern day Bulgaria?

    All this means is that the steppe peoples didn't change the genetics of Southern Europeans and perhaps even people like the ones in Pannonia, although that's very speculative, as much as they did the people of Poland, or Germany, or Britain. It also means that when trying to figure out how Northern Italians became Northern Italians, or Tuscans became Tuscans, you have to consider migrations like those of the Celts and the Goths and the Lombards, just as when figuring out mainland Greek genetics you have to consider the Slavs. Genetic change was still going on in Europe in the early Medieval period even as far north as England, where we have the Anglo-Saxon invasions.

    Now, as to this perpetual obsession with who has more "Near Eastern" or "Levantine", the Greeks of various sorts or the Southern Italians...my God don't you people ever get bored with this?

    Anyway, even the calculator results based on modern populations which are so loved by some people show that the "Caucasus" or Near Eastern in mainland Greeks is at least equal to if not larger than in southern Italians/Sicilians. In Dodecad it's actually larger in mainland Greece. How many times does it have to be repeated? The same is true for Albanians versus Tuscans. The "eastern" pull is partly the pull toward CHG, get it?

    See: dodecad K12b below for "Caucasus" scores:
    Greeks 37.4
    Southern Italians/Sicilians 36.5

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...hl=en_US#gid=0

    Drum roll please: The Southern Italians/Sicilians have two points more "Southwest Asian" or Levantine than mainland Greeks. BIG WHOOPS! Is it like a thermometer? Anything over 10%, i.e. 12% makes you suddenly Lebanese? No disrespect to the Lebanese btw. I'd rather my kids had a few percent more from people like them than from some other groups I could name.

    Pray tell, where is this big difference between these two groups of people in terms of Near Eastern and Levantine, other than in the fevered brain of the usual suspect? Look, I get it. No one wants to see 50,000 posts go into the trash bin, but the data is the data.

    The other differences have to do with the fact that the "northern" influence in Greeks is more "Northern" Europe, which in most calculators is really "Northeastern" European, and in Italians it's Germano/Celtic. Anyone who knows any European history whatsoever would have known that even if dna was never analyzed.

    That's not even discussing the Greek Islanders.

    Take a look at the PCA from the Mycenaean paper for goodness sakes. Albanians and mainland Greeks are pulled toward the Caucasus compared to Tuscans not because they have more total "steppe", but because they have more of the CHG component which also came to them independently of steppe movements. That applies to Sicilians as well. Now, when all those elements arrived in all these areas is going to have to wait for more ancient dna, not just from Italy, but also from Greece, because we have no Classical Era Greek samples.

    Or go to the thread on the Geneplaza calculator based on ancient samples.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ight=Geneplaza

    Whether certain people like it or not, Mycenaeans land smack dab on top of Sicilians.

    I'm tired of pointing out the same data and papers over and over again. Just read the papers and stop with the amateur analysis from five years ago.

    @Davef,
    Sarno et al is strictly about Italian genetics. This thread is about the Mycenaeans and Minoans. Sarno is also a mess of a paper based strictly on modern populations.

    We've been side-tracked enough. Back on topic.
    Ed. People might also want to go back to the Dienekes analysis showing "Caucasus" in Otzi in the Bronze Age. I've been saying since even before that, back to the old days at dna forums, and just going by all I know about the Copper Age in Italy that there was a Late Neolithic/Copper Age movement from Anatolia into southeastern Europe and Italy which brought copper metallurgy with it. Perhaps it had something to do with Metallurgy in southeastern Spain as well. It might have upped the "Caucasus" or Near Eastern in those areas, whatever might also have happened later.
    http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8

    An academic paper by Kilinic et al confirmed it. How many times does it have to be pointed out? Do people really have no recollection of these things?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    An

    Where did I go wrong with this post? I'll be happy to know so I know what not to say next time, I'll accept a pm if you want to keep things private.
    If you or anyone else wants to discuss Italian genetics, go to a thread on Italian genetics.

    Everybody, including me for responding to Latgal, has to stop hijacking this thread.

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    Is there any chance we can ask for more quantitative data for Figure 2 (numeric instead of color coding)?
    What I mean is: is anyone here in contact with one of the authors, or got access to some conference presentation?
    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergin View Post
    Is there any chance we can ask for more quantitative data for Figure 2 (numeric instead of color coding)?
    What I mean is: is anyone here in contact with one of the authors, or got access to some conference presentation?
    Thanks
    If you mean that last Haak graphic, I've posted it before:

    Norway - 30, 16, 54
    Lithuania - 18, 30, 52
    Estonia - 12, 37, 51
    Iceland - 32, 19, 49
    Scotland - 28, 23, 49
    Czech - 35, 16, 49
    Belarus - 25, 28, 47
    Hungary - 39, 16, 45
    Ukraine - 28, 27, 44
    England - 44, 14, 42
    Orkney - 34, 25, 41
    South French - 57, 4, 39
    Croatia - 44, 17, 37
    French - 51, 12, 37
    North Spanish - 59, 10, 31
    Bulgaria - 55, 14, 31
    Tuscany - 72, 0, 28
    Basque - 54, 19, 27
    Bergamo - 63, 13, 24
    Spain - 78, 0, 22
    Greece - 66, 14, 20
    Albania - 65, 18, 17
    Sardinia - 88, 7, 5

    To get the entire "Southern" component you'd have to take 40% of the last number and add it to the first number.

    Later papers have put it higher.

    This is only part of the story. You have to read the entire supplement.
    You're welcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If you mean that last Haak graphic, I've posted it before:

    Norway - 30, 16, 54
    Lithuania - 18, 30, 52
    Estonia - 12, 37, 51
    Iceland - 32, 19, 49
    Scotland - 28, 23, 49
    Czech - 35, 16, 49
    Belarus - 25, 28, 47
    Hungary - 39, 16, 45
    Ukraine - 28, 27, 44
    England - 44, 14, 42
    Orkney - 34, 25, 41
    South French - 57, 4, 39
    Croatia - 44, 17, 37
    French - 51, 12, 37
    North Spanish - 59, 10, 31
    Bulgaria - 55, 14, 31
    Tuscany - 72, 0, 28
    Basque - 54, 19, 27
    Bergamo - 63, 13, 24
    Spain - 78, 0, 22
    Greece - 66, 14, 20
    Albania - 65, 18, 17
    Sardinia - 88, 7, 5

    To get the entire "Southern" component you'd have to take 40% of the last number and add it to the first number.

    This is only part of the story. You have to read the entire supplement.
    You're welcome.
    Thanks Angela, but also sorry for the confusion:
    I meant the Lazaridis paper .

    Nevertheless, your info is pretty useful now that I see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergin View Post
    Thanks Angela, but also sorry for the confusion:
    I meant the Lazaridis paper .

    Nevertheless, your info is pretty useful now that I see it.
    You're going to have to be more specific. If you mean this, it's based on FST, which is a statistical measure of overall genetic relatedness. It has its pluses and minuses, just like every measure. To the best of my recollection the figures are in the Supplement.

    If you're referring to the odd result for the Southern Italians, I believe I posted upthread that Lazaridis was questioned about it at the talk he gave with Reich and Krause, and he said that the specific Southern Italian sample on that chip is probably extremely drifted away from everyone except Sicilians. I'm guessing that means they used some extremely isolated group tested as part of some study into recessive disease genes, but that's just a guess.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're going to have to be more specific. If you mean this, it's based on FST, which is a statistical measure of overall genetic relatedness. It has its pluses and minuses, just like every measure. To the best of my recollection the figures are in the Supplement.

    If you're referring to the odd result for the Southern Italians, I believe I posted upthread that Lazaridis was questioned about it at the talk he gave with Reich and Krause, and he said that the specific Southern Italian sample on that chip is probably extremely drifted away from everyone except Sicilians. I'm guessing that means they used some extremely isolated group tested as part of some study into recessive disease genes, but that's just a guess.

    Yes, this is it. Thanks for the explanation.
    It just surprises me that the northern italian dot (maybe Bergamo) has very similar tendencies with sicily. Was it expected?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergin View Post
    Yes, this is it. Thanks for the explanation.
    It just surprises me that the northern italian dot (maybe Bergamo) has very similar tendencies with sicily. Was it expected?
    This is fst to Mycenaeans or Minoans, not to each other.

    Still, it's true that Northern Italians are closer in terms of fst to certain other ethnicities than to Sicilians.

    Just as an example, I'm about 1/2 northern and 1/2Tuscan, or 3/4 Northern, 1/4 Tuscan depending on how you define certain groups. I'm closer genetically to certain Balkan groups than I am to Sicilians. That would be even more the case for someone who is 100% from Bergamo, for example.

    "The genetic distance between Southern and Northern Italians (Fst=0.0013) is comparable to that between individuals living in different political units (ie, Iberians-Romanians Fst=0.0011; British-French Fst=0.0007), and, interestingly, in >50% of all the possible pairwise comparisons within Europe."

    All of this can be drastically over-interpreted of course. The fst between all European populations is very close.

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