Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

@Jovialis,
I sincerely hope it isn't that weird Calabrian one with high fst to everyone in the world.

Ah yes, I believe this is the one you're referring to.

G1UD1Tg.png
 
^^
Is this even a reliable method to measure genetic closeness? How are these people less "related" to Mycenaeans, Anatolian Bronze Age, etc than say certain Russian groups or Germans? I'm totally struck by this. Clarification from someone would really help :)
 
Are we now going to question FST as a measure of genetic relatedness? Prepare to be part of a group of one.

Either this is a highly drifted group of people, like those from those northeast Italian villages, or there's something wrong with the actual sample.
 
Well ok if the sample isn't garbage then yeah after looking up "fst" I can guess why they score so high; it could just be due to having the right amount of genes that are scarce or nonexistent in other populations, right?
 
Ok but is it the ultimate indicator of relativeness? I don't see how England has more, say, Anatolian Bronze Age genes than them. To me, this is a total paradox, it's like finding a group of ants smaller than your toenail that miraculously weigh more than elephants.

Like, what would they score in 23 and me? Would it be 0 percent everything and 100 percent unknown? Would their servers overload trying to figure them out? Seriously, though, I have no idea why they score the way they do.
 
This study is the first piece of the puzzle, or one of the first pieces. Sometimes we want more definitive answers, but I think we have to wait until we get more samples to make more definite conclusions. At this point, Dienekes and Cavalli-Sforza, et al. could have been right. Dienekes said modern Greeks have continuity with ancients (same perhaps with neighboring populations who are close to Myceneans in this study). While we don't have classical and other ancient samples from Greece, I have a reasonable doubt that they will be radically different than Myceneans, as there were no major invasions to my knowledge.

Cavalli-Sforza et al. said something to the effect that the older migrations were the most consequential in modern populations. He (and perhaps his colleagues) said that medieval "barbarian" invasions had less impact because of greater population density.

But again, we are in a very early stage. I look forward to future studies and more pieces of the puzzle being put together.
 
This study is the first piece of the puzzle, or one of the first pieces. Sometimes we want more definitive answers, but I think we have to wait until we get more samples to make more definite conclusions. At this point, Dienekes and Cavalli-Sforza, et al. could have been right. Dienekes said modern Greeks have continuity with ancients (same perhaps with neighboring populations who are close to Myceneans in this study). While we don't have classical and other ancient samples from Greece, I have a reasonable doubt that they will be radically different than Myceneans, as there were no major invasions to my knowledge.

Cavalli-Sforza et al. said something to the effect that the older migrations were the most consequential in modern populations. He (and perhaps his colleagues) said that medieval "barbarian" invasions had less impact because of greater population density.

But again, we are in a very early stage. I look forward to future studies and more pieces of the puzzle being put together.
I think the Greek Dark Ages and Dorian invasion is noteworthy.
 


DORIAN INVASION

THE MOST INCORRECT TERM


The term in Greek is ΚΑΘΟΔΟΣ ΔΩΡΙΕΩΝ, Dorian descent or march


the translation of Καθοδος Μυριων is march of 10 000, the descent to sea of 10 000
but follows an anabasis ΑΝΑΒΑΣΙΣ,

SO DORIAN INVASION IS INCORECT, AND GIVES WRONG IMPRESSIONS AND INFORMATIONS,

THE CORRECT TERM IS DORIAN DESCENT
and Follows the Anabasis of heracledes (Hercules sons)

Dorian Descent is also described by ancient as RETURN OF HERACLEDAE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(Xenophon)



THE TERM DORIAN INVASION WAS USED AT 1928 when American archaiologist CARL BLEGEN believed that DORIANS came from Vucocar,
and that is 2500 BC

BUT , Today we know that Dorian descent was 911 BC while at 2500 BC came Myceneans

THE DORIAN DESCENT IS A CLEAR INNER CHANGE OF RULLING CLASS AND RETURN OF PREVIOUS FAMILIES TO POWER,
IT IS NOT AN INVASION

the new problem that Lazarides papper inputs is the 2 bellow

1) If MYCENEANS CAME STRAIGHT FROM ANATOLIA WITH MINOANS
with all the effects, like non Yamnaa and non steppe IEans

2) VUCOCAR VUCEDOL (for some ProtoCetina)
might Be a non Yamnaa
but a J2a1 the marked YDNA of Myceneans
Myceneans moved to Istros and then went south to Peloponese


that is Dorian Descent

Early Geometric period[edit]

In the Early Geometric period (900–850 BC), the height of the vessels had been increased, while the decoration is limited around the neck down to the middle of the body of the vessel. The remaining surface is covered by a thin layer of clay, which during the firing takes a dark, shiny, metallic color.[3] That was the period when the decorative theme of the meander was added to the pottery design, the most characteristic element of Geometric art.


PS

I suggest see what The Princeton say here, post 36

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34301-Proto-Greeks/page2?highlight=proto-Greek




TO ALL

THE CIVILIZATION OF BUILDINGS WITH CORRIDORS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YAMNAA OR STEPPE
 
I think the Greek Dark Ages and Dorian invasion is noteworthy.

The Dorians spoke Greek, so it's not like they came from far away. I wouldn't expect them to be very genetically different than Mycenaeans.

There is of course debate as to whether the Dorians invaded at all, or whether the violence associated with the Mycenaean downfall came from people other than those who lived with or near them.
 


DORIAN INVASION

THE MOST INCORRECT TERM


The term in Greek is ΚΑΘΟΔΟΣ ΔΩΡΙΕΩΝ, Dorian descent or march


the translation of Καθοδος Μυριων is march of 10 000, the descent to sea of 10 000
but follows an anabasis ΑΝΑΒΑΣΙΣ,

SO DORIAN INVASION IS INCORECT, AND GIVES WRONG IMPRESSIONS AND INFORMATIONS,

THE CORRECT TERM IS DORIAN DESCENT
and Follows the Anabasis of heracledes (Hercules sons)

Dorian Descent is also described by ancient as RETURN OF HERACLEDAE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(Xenophon)



THE TERM DORIAN INVASION WAS USED AT 1928 when American archaiologist CARL BLEGEN believed that DORIANS came from Vucocar,
and that is 2500 BC

BUT , Today we know that Dorian descent was 911 BC while at 2500 BC came Myceneans

THE DORIAN DESCENT IS A CLEAR INNER CHANGE OF RULLING CLASS AND RETURN OF PREVIOUS FAMILIES TO POWER,
IT IS NOT AN INVASION

the new problem that Lazarides papper inputs is the 2 bellow

1) If MYCENEANS CAME STRAIGHT FROM ANATOLIA WITH MINOANS
with all the effects, like non Yamnaa and non steppe IEans

2) VUCOCAR VUCEDOL (for some ProtoCetina)
might Be a non Yamnaa
but a J2a1 the marked YDNA of Myceneans
Myceneans moved to Istros and then went south to Peloponese


that is Dorian Descent

Early Geometric period[edit]

In the Early Geometric period (900–850 BC), the height of the vessels had been increased, while the decoration is limited around the neck down to the middle of the body of the vessel. The remaining surface is covered by a thin layer of clay, which during the firing takes a dark, shiny, metallic color.[3] That was the period when the decorative theme of the meander was added to the pottery design, the most characteristic element of Geometric art.


PS

I suggest see what The Princeton say here, post 36

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34301-Proto-Greeks/page2?highlight=proto-Greek




TO ALL

THE CIVILIZATION OF BUILDINGS WITH CORRIDORS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YAMNAA OR STEPPE

My suspicion is that Dorians came from Yamnna, while Mycenians came from Anatolia.....the language can be changed .....nothing new here.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
My suspicion is that Dorians came from Yamnna, while Mycenians came from Anatolia.....the language can be changed .....nothing new here.
Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
The scholar Niebuhr considers that the thracians ruled modern Montenegro , Albania, Macedonia and its eastern balkans areas in the middle to late bronze-age and that the Dorians came from them. after the passing of the Dorians, the lands where filled with epirotes, macedonians, Paeonians, Molossians etc

and I agree with you on the myceneans
 


DORIAN INVASION

THE MOST INCORRECT TERM


The term in Greek is ΚΑΘΟΔΟΣ ΔΩΡΙΕΩΝ, Dorian descent or march


the translation of Καθοδος Μυριων is march of 10 000, the descent to sea of 10 000
but follows an anabasis ΑΝΑΒΑΣΙΣ,

SO DORIAN INVASION IS INCORECT, AND GIVES WRONG IMPRESSIONS AND INFORMATIONS,

THE CORRECT TERM IS DORIAN DESCENT
and Follows the Anabasis of heracledes (Hercules sons)

Dorian Descent is also described by ancient as RETURN OF HERACLEDAE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(Xenophon)



THE TERM DORIAN INVASION WAS USED AT 1928 when American archaiologist CARL BLEGEN believed that DORIANS came from Vucocar,
and that is 2500 BC

BUT , Today we know that Dorian descent was 911 BC while at 2500 BC came Myceneans

THE DORIAN DESCENT IS A CLEAR INNER CHANGE OF RULLING CLASS AND RETURN OF PREVIOUS FAMILIES TO POWER,
IT IS NOT AN INVASION

the new problem that Lazarides papper inputs is the 2 bellow

1) If MYCENEANS CAME STRAIGHT FROM ANATOLIA WITH MINOANS
with all the effects, like non Yamnaa and non steppe IEans

2) VUCOCAR VUCEDOL (for some ProtoCetina)
might Be a non Yamnaa
but a J2a1 the marked YDNA of Myceneans
Myceneans moved to Istros and then went south to Peloponese


that is Dorian Descent

Early Geometric period[edit]

In the Early Geometric period (900–850 BC), the height of the vessels had been increased, while the decoration is limited around the neck down to the middle of the body of the vessel. The remaining surface is covered by a thin layer of clay, which during the firing takes a dark, shiny, metallic color.[3] That was the period when the decorative theme of the meander was added to the pottery design, the most characteristic element of Geometric art.


PS

I suggest see what The Princeton say here, post 36

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34301-Proto-Greeks/page2?highlight=proto-Greek




TO ALL

THE CIVILIZATION OF BUILDINGS WITH CORRIDORS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YAMNAA OR STEPPE

do you know Vucedol autosomal?
Y-DNA is mainly R1b-Z2103 = Yamna
 
Sorry, I have no idea.

I would appreciate it if you asked the author of the test, where the sample is from.

I think it is obviously that odd, genetically drifted or faulty Calabrian sample. But I would like for you to verify it.

I think it's the same sample used by Lazaridis, in his PCA labeled "Italian_South".

Y0iKUNg.png

HUrMHek.png

G1UD1Tg.png


I find the labeling to be odd.

-Bergamo is named appropriately, as it is from one city.

-Tuscany is a little broader, but at least we know the region it's from.

-But this one sample is supposed to represent the entire south, despite the fact there's been different history, and people who have lived throughout the region. Even different history within and of those regions.

IJ9C7ltm.png
cODoDbCm.jpg
fJBRSeQm.png
fS0LyXgm.png
 
Last edited:
Yeah, something's going on with the south Italians in this study. Other endogamous populations such as the various Jewish groups (except for the Turkish ones) or Sardinians are getting way lower values.

Sorry in advance (I've asked this before) but why are the Turkish Jews scoring so low here? They're almost dead red with the Mycenaeans.
 
do you know Vucedol autosomal?
Y-DNA is mainly R1b-Z2103 = Yamna

that is the point

All Mycenean samples are Y J2a1 and most mt X2

yet archaiology shows a connection among Vucedol and Peloponesos around 2500 BC
that was also my believes until Lazarides last paper,
that is known from 1830 and described well at 1928, but with wrong believes that Dorians were that era,
today we know that Dorian descent is after Mycenean palaces civilization collapse (sea peoples)

Lazarides papper is like a 'bomb' to the previous archaiological theory of Myceneans

and 'shook' all I knew as well tested before





also before them shows much G2a2 Y-dna
 
Yeah, something's going on with the south Italians in this study. Other endogamous populations such as the various Jewish groups (except for the Turkish ones) or Sardinians are getting way lower values.

Sorry in advance (I've asked this before) but why are the Turkish Jews scoring so low here? They're almost dead red with the Mycenaeans.

It seems you would really like this group of Calabrians to be Jews of some sort, but I have no evidence to that effect. Until and if you have some, perhaps it's a non-starte, although of course I'm open to any such evidence anyone produces.

It's a mistake to attribute close FST to actual direct lines of descent or inheritance. It can result in false interpretations. Close fst can result from admixture of the same ancestral components in roughly similar proportions, that occurred in different places and times.

FWIW, the "Turkish Jews" have a lot of Sephardic Jewish descent, as in exiles from Spain and Portugal.

The Canary Islands are "dead red" as well, and other than their extra SSA, they're Iberian, so maybe it's something Iberian like, and therefore WHG and Yamnaya like which, with their very high Minoan like farmer component, makes them draw together.

The other part of their ancestry is from the Greek and Roman classical area. Who knows how much of that ancestry these types of Jews absorbed? Maybe they are the Jews responsible for the higher "European" of the Ashkenazim.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey
 
It seems you would really like this group of Calabrians to be Jews of some sort, but I have no evidence to that effect. Until and if you have some, perhaps it's a non-starte, although of course I'm open to any such evidence anyone produces.
It's a mistake to attribute close FST to actual direct lines of descent or inheritance. It can result in false interpretations. Close fst can result from admixture of the same ancestral components in roughly similar proportions, that occurred in different places and times.
FWIW, the "Turkish Jews" have a lot of Sephardic Jewish descent, as in exiles from Spain and Portugal.
The Canary Islands are "dead red" as well, and other than their extra SSA, they're Iberian, so maybe it's something Iberian like, and therefore WHG and Yamnaya like which, with their very high Minoan like farmer component, makes them draw together.
The other part of their ancestry is from the Greek and Roman classical area. Who knows how much of that ancestry these types of Jews absorbed? Maybe they are the Jews responsible for the higher "European" of the Ashkenazim.
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey
Thanks for the info and trust me!! I am in no way shape or form driven by any sort of agenda whatsoever :)! I apologize if I sound as if I want to make Jews out of Calabrians but that's not my intention. I was pointing out that other endogamous groups like various Jewish groups and Sardinians are still scoring lower so the drift we are seeing here with the calabrians must be very extreme.
I mentioned Sardinians as well in that post btw.
Trust me, I'm not one of many ****** on here with idiotic agendas. :)
 
"It's a mistake to attribute close FST to actual direct lines of descent or inheritance. It can result in false interpretations. Close fst can result from admixture of the same ancestral components in roughly similar proportions, that occurred in different places and times. "
I guess I still don't get this fst thingy. Ok yes it doesn't mean direct lines of inheritance, but still, how are, say, Germans closer or more similar to Minoans etc (assuming lower fst means more similar-or does it??).
(Head explodes....BANG)
 

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