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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Largest set of Mycenaean pottery ever recovered west of mainland Greece is at Roca Vecchia - Apulia - Italy.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roca...ological_site)
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    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    Dorian invasion theory has been tested and disproven by geneticists.

    Triandafilidis says in his book "The genetic history of Greece" that there was no alteration in the genetic material
    of the Greek population Prior and After the event of the so-called Dorian invasion.
    Simple. The Mycenaean upper crust was replaced, but the underlying population was not.

    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    Also except of the lack of any genetic evidence there is also lack of any archeological evidence to support
    the claim of such an event as referred to Dorian invasion.
    Other than a trail of destroyed fortresses and burned palaces. Barbarians don't leave many archaeological traces. If you didn't know its history, based on its archaeological remains, you wouldn't think that Sparta was a particularly important place.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    Dorian invasion theory has been tested and disproven by geneticists.


    Triandafilidis says in his book "The genetic history of Greece" that there was no alteration in the genetic material
    of the Greek population Prior and After the event of the so-called Dorian invasion.

    Dorians after all were a Hellenic tribe who spoke a dialect of Greek and are described to trace their ancestor to the same
    common ancestor Hellen as the other Hellenic tribes,in Greek mythology
    .
    What kind of evidence does Triandafilidis have the Dorians not altering the genetic mainframe of Ancient Greece. We would need post Iron Age and pre-Hellenistic Age genetic material to confirm that. That way, we can mirror it to Bronze Age Greece. So far, there isn't any. And to what extent would the Dorians have changed the genetic make up? Perhaps they only brought some additional genes. Another upper layer, so to speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    What kind of evidence does Triandafilidis have the Dorians not altering the genetic mainframe of Ancient Greece. We would need post Iron Age and pre-Hellenistic Age genetic material to confirm that. That way, we can mirror it to Bronze Age Greece. So far, there isn't any. And to what extent would the Dorians have changed the genetic make up? Perhaps they only brought some additional genes. Another upper layer, so to speak.
    Dorians were a peloponnesian tribe called Heracleides which moved northwards in central Greece, near the lake Doris. Thats why they are called Dorians, due to their starting point was Lake Doris in central Greece. They moved southwards then creating Sparta, and some of them went northwards, creating the kingdom of Macedonia. Both of those were said to be Dorians or Heracleides.

    Your dellusions about an invasion of Greece from the North is just that. Delusions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    archeologists have found Mycanaean settlements in Croatia for example
    No, that's false. Mycenaeans only built cities in the Greece and some isles near Anatolia such as Rhodes. We know that during the late bronze age there were also some significant Mycenaean communities in Cyprus, Western Anatolia and probably Cilicia. but they seemed to have lived in local settlements such as Miletus and Kition, Miletus in particular was under Achean control as some Hittite letters suggest. It's also evident from the pottery finds that Mycenaeans visited frequently the Levant and Egypt, but never really settled there until the end of the bronze age with the Philistine migrations where it's clear that there were Aegean peoples involved. As for the west they didn't found any city but they traded often with Southern Italy, Sicily and Sardinia, in all these regions Mycenaean pottery was produced locally in some of the local sites, which suggests the presence of Mycenaean artisans working alonside the locals in local communities. In the Adriatic coast there are a few Mycenanean finds but almost exclusively concentrated in the Italian side, while almost none come from the Balkan side, so not only the idea of a Mycenaean city in Croatia is to reject but the idea of Mycenaean individuals present there also seems unlikely given the current finds. Mycenaeans interacted much more with Southern Italy, Sicily and even Sardinia than with the people living in the Western Balkans.

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    It is so interesting that Helen fled from Sparta (a city founded by Dorians) in Iliad, and yet no major settlements in terms of archaeology has been found in Sparta during the times of Mycenaeans.
    Last edited by ihype02; 22-05-18 at 14:56.

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    How is that modern Peloponnesians are not even 15% J2a and yet Myceanean were enriched with this halpogroup?
    How come no one thought about this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    How is that modern Peloponnesians are not even 15% J2a and yet Myceanean were enriched with this halpogroup?
    How come no one thought about this?
    Re-reading the paper might be in order.

    75-79% of the autosomal make-up of the Mycenaeans was Neolithic farmer. The remainder was split between steppe and Iranian farmer, if you will, the latter presumably brought by J lineages.

    Plus, if there's one thing we should know it's that primarily male-mediated gene flow might not have a one to one impact on the autosomal make-up, yes?

    It is so interesting that Helen fled from Sparta (a city founded by Dorians) in Iliad, and yet no major settlements in terms of archaeology has been found in Sparta during the times of Mycenaeans.
    You don't think it's to be expected that a text that old, written long after the events it describes, which deals with a story passed down in oral form long before a poem was composed and written about it, will have accumulated some historical anachronisms? Were you under the misapprehension that this is supposed to be accurate history in every detail?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Re-reading the paper might be in order.

    75-79% of the autosomal make-up of the Mycenaeans was Neolithic farmer. The remainder was split between steppe and Iranian farmer, if you will, the latter presumably brought by J lineages.

    Plus, if there's one thing we should know it's that primarily male-mediated gene flow might not have a one to one impact on the autosomal make-up, yes?

    He was saying that they don't have high enough J2a, Ydna. He wasn't commenting on their autosomal dna
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    I don't know about how much J2a greeks have though i'm not saying greeks dont have enough. Just correcting a misunderstanding

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    I was talking about the contrast of J2a in Morea ONLY. Peloponnese was the center Myceanean civilization; Mycenae, Tiryns, Pylos.
    On the other hand Peloponnese has <15% J2a According to the maps shown here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leandros View Post
    Dorians were a peloponnesian tribe called Heracleides which moved northwards in central Greece, near the lake Doris. Thats why they are called Dorians, due to their starting point was Lake Doris in central Greece. They moved southwards then creating Sparta, and some of them went northwards, creating the kingdom of Macedonia. Both of those were said to be Dorians or Heracleides.

    Your dellusions about an invasion of Greece from the North is just that. Delusions.

    Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
    mtDNA: U5b2a
    Not Exactly! Greeks historians noted that Dorian's came from North. They spoke a dialect of Hellenic language. Dialects rise when some people switch from one language to another. Let say Sicilian dialect rose from switching from Sicilian language to Latin. That means Dorian's had probably spoken Albanian or some other pre-European language and switched to Hellenic. The Dorian dialect did not rise as a geographic seperation because historians wrote that Dorian came. When they did come to the area they had been Hellenized. They also developed they own version of art based on pre existing Greek ART.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    He was saying that they don't have high enough J2a, Ydna. He wasn't commenting on their autosomal dna
    Thanks, Johane, but I understood what he was saying. It still doesn't follow logically.

    The only way you can speculate about whether the levels of a certain uniparental marker make sense is by looking at how much impact the migration which they represent had on the population, and the only way to do that is to look at the autosomal composition. How else can you determine what is too much or too little of any y line?

    Very little ancestry in the Mycenaeans can be attributed to northeastern Anatolian/Iranian farmer like ancestry. Looking to later people after that point, the only migration about which we're sure would have been with people having more northern ancestry moving in with the Slavic invasions, and they are hardly likely to have brought J1 and J2, so 15% J2 doesn't seem "too little" to me necessarily.

    Looking at Maciamo's charts, J2 in mainland Greece seems to run from 15-20%. I don't know why that would be "too little" given that there must have been some dilution with the Slavic migrations, and that if you want to go back to using things like admixture in Dienekes' K=7b Greeks are about 25% "West Asian". That looks like a pretty good match to me.

    @everyone,

    We have no clue what Y the "Dorians" carried or what they were like autosomally because as of yet we have no ancient samples. The results for the Mycenaeans should have taught us that all this constant, unsupported speculation is no match for ancient dna.


    @ihype,
    I don't get what you don't get. If mainland Greeks only have 25% West Asian, why is much more than 15-20% J2a such a necessity for you? It's a good correspondence, actually. You expect more based on what evidence?

    Also, if you're going to refer to percentages, link to the study you're referencing.

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    Sorry, duplicate post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Not Exactly! Greeks historians noted that Dorian's came from North.
    From where exactly? Post some relevant texts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    I don't get what you don't get. If mainland Greeks only have 25% West Asian, why is much more than 15-20% J2a such a necessity for you? It's a good correspondence, actually. You expect more based on what evidence?

    Also, if you're going to refer to percentages, link to the study you're referencing.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...gion-of-origin
    Haplogroup J2 is (880 samples)
    J2a : 12.2
    J2b : 5.7

    --J2b is not Mycenaean-like. I was only talking about J2a. As a matter of fact many Armenians, Anatolians and Italians have settled in various parts of Greece, in this case Peloponnese. Which by the way might've actually increased the percentage of J2a, to certain degree, not entirely of course. The low frequencies of J2a in Peloponnese clearly shows that they have mixed with something else. (and drastically so)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Italians have settled in various parts of Greece, in this case Peloponnese.
    Could you provide a source for this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    From where exactly? Post some relevant texts.


    Source is in Greece. Macedonian dialect rose by language switching, so did Doric. Albanian borrowings from Greek are from this dialect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Could you provide a source for this?

    --- There where Italians in Peloponnese, Epirus and Crete by the late Middle ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...gion-of-origin
    Haplogroup J2 is (880 samples)
    J2a : 12.2
    J2b : 5.7

    --J2b is not Mycenaean-like. I was only talking about J2a. As a matter of fact many Armenians, Anatolians and Italians have settled in various parts of Greece, in this case Peloponnese. Which by the way might've actually increased the percentage of J2a, to certain degree, not entirely of course. The low frequencies of J2a in Peloponnese clearly shows that they have mixed with something else. (and drastically so)
    You're posting something from 2011?

    I already provided the relevant data, a compilation of many and more recent sources, from Maciamo's charts. The percentages are 15-20% for mainland Greece, which isn't a bad fit for the amount of so called "West Asian" in them.

    You still haven't revealed your actual point, if you have one.

    As for the presence of a few Italians in mainland I fail to see what that has to do with anything, including the genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans.

    This is an academic thread about the genetics of ancient peoples. It's not a linguistics thread or another place for the on-going Balkan wars.

    GET BACK ON TOPIC.

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    ^You are counting J2b in those results. J2a is less than 15%. J2 is 23% for of all Greece including islands. If Peloponnesians were largely Mycenaeans they should've scored more. You probably get my point but you've simply choosen to ignore the elephant in the room.
    But whatever ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Not Exactly! Greeks historians noted that Dorian's came from North. They spoke a dialect of Hellenic language. Dialects rise when some people switch from one language to another. Let say Sicilian dialect rose from switching from Sicilian language to Latin. That means Dorian's had probably spoken Albanian or some other pre-European language and switched to Hellenic. The Dorian dialect did not rise as a geographic seperation because historians wrote that Dorian came. When they did come to the area they had been Hellenized. They also developed they own version of art based on pre existing Greek ART.
    No comment :))))
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Source is in Greece. Macedonian dialect rose by language switching, so did Doric. Albanian borrowings from Greek are from this dialect.
    When you find were Proto-Greek found,
    and Makedonian was a primitive Greek when Attic spawn

    then tell us again these.

    it is obvious that IE communality
    is not Albanian origin,
    Neither all the coincidences some named.

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    @ both Giannopoulos and Triantaffylides from Patra and Auth,
    Find it difficult to distinguish,

    it seems Myceneans came straight of a IE core from S Caucasus
    but there is where problem starts,

    they moved straight to S Greece?
    or they moved first to Vucedol-Vatin or Cetina and from there went south?

    Myceneans + NW Graikoi Selloi are the IE part of Hellenism




    mainly archaiology, no genetics.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    All off topic posts, including my own, have been deleted.

    The people so interested in discussing Albanian ethnogenesis yet again, this time in the context of Bronze Age Epirus, now have a dedicated thread where they can do so.

    We'll see if you take advantage of it or you just wanted to ruin this thread.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...744#post544744

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