Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[davef]

Who says Davidski's is correct, or any more correct? First of all, we don't know which Greek sample Davidski used. At least in Pratt's list the different areas are labeled.
Second of all, no goodness of fit statistics are supplied for any of these.
It's stupid, imo, to use a mix of ancient and modern samples. So, using Czech can be misleading. You can see the difficulty because you can label Tuscans as 31% Czech, for goodness' sakes, and there was no Slavic migration to Italy.
Your Macedonian numbers don't resemble anything published in this thread, nor are Macedonians the only "Greek" population.

Not to worry, i was just pointing out how it's wrong to think that a typical or average Greek looks that way genetically (46 Mycenaean 43 Czech etc) sin terms of percent "northern" ancestry bc a lot of people on here seem to think so.
No offense, but I never said or implied that Macedonians were the only Greek population. I'm not quite sure how you got that idea.

 

[davef]

I'm not sure I understand your objection to using the Mycenaeans for the Greeks, at least. That is the most proximate ancient sample we have for them so far, yes?
I suppose they're using it for Italians as a stand in for a broader Southern European population that might have been already impacted by populations like the Anatolia Chalcolithic, but not yet by more northern steppe admixed groups? I wonder if anyone has tried to model Italians as something like Anatolia Chalcolithic/Otzi-Remedello/Unetice-Bell Beaker.
The models have different levels of fit. Which had the best fit in your modeling for the various groups?
I think what Davidski was trying to do with Roman outlier was to show some sort of Levant like admixture in Italians dating from the Roman era, from slaves, etc. Whether that happened or not I don't know. Strange, though, if that's the case, that Greeks can wind up with 15% of it. More Levant like alleles might have been part of Bronze Age movements for all we know right now, depending on the composition of the precise group that moved into southeastern Europe.
That's the problem with all of this. We may not yet have the precise, proximate ancient samples to figure this all out.

Remember Angela, the 15 percent "Levant" in Greeks dates back to the Neolithic; however, the same cannot be said for Italians bc in Ancient Rome, these emaciated slave babes were all the rage to Roman men, I mean who can resist their rotting teeth, the diseases they carried, their protruding bones, their sweat drenched bodies from intensive labor, and their foul odors?

And the slave men were free to rape women as they pleased bc it's not like they were subject to punishment or under supervision.

Sarcasm, just in case no one sees it

 

[Angela]

^^I'm sure some slaves girls from wherever were quite fetching. Unfortunately, I think a good number would have been sent to brothels all over the empire. The number of brothels in a town the size of Pompeii alone is quite staggering. Girls don't last very long in such places, and their children (and genes) don't survive to go into the general gene pool. The child of a rich owner might survive, but the number of men rich enough to own large numbers of beautiful, nubile girls would, during the Empire as during the antebellum period of the American south, have been small.

Also, as I implied above, there would have been Gallic, British, Pannonian, and Germanic slave girls as well as Greek, Illyrian, Thracian, Syrian and Asia Minor ones. For some reason the northern ones are usually forgotten.

Men are a different story. A huge percentage went to the galleys, the mines, latifundia and various commercial enterprises, like making dyes or garum etc. We don't know how many rich Roman households would have given their male slaves free rein among the female slaves, and usually manumission occurred later in life. Any messing about with the free women of the household would have been a one off thing one way or another, although in the days of the later empire there were scandalous stories of Roman matrons who occasionally paid a visit to the gladiators. I'm sure then as later children who couldn't be explained often weren't born. That's what "wise women" were for...

For this as for other questions, we'll need to wait for the ancient dna and then see if we can make sense of it.

I don't get the emotional "baggage" that surrounds this topic. Anyone who doesn't know that all of us descend from both the enslaved and the enslavers, the lords and the tenant farmers etc. is seriously uneducated. Look at Iceland as one example. About 40% of their ancestry is from the British Isles right? They were all slaves. So what? Honestly, education systems world wide need to do a better job of instructing people in basic history.

 

[davef]

"Anyone who doesn't know that all of us descend from both the enslaved and the enslavers, the lords and the tenant farmers etc. is seriously uneducated. "

Could you explain a little further as to how I descend from "lords"? I don't see how I'm very "lordly". Lord davef would readily drop his crown, scepter, and robe, and run out to hang with his friends at the pub, laugh, burp in girls' faces, and sleep in the barn with his goats bc I enjoy the company of animals.

 

[davef]

And the last couse I had on world history was back in high school. We covered European geography, a little bit of medieval European history dealing mostly with feudalism (or whatever that crap was that I totally forgot about), the French Revolution, and finally, South and central America.
I'm so bad with history now that if someone were to ask me to describe henry the 8 th I'll respond saying he's the "turkey guy, right"?

 

[Alan]

Nevermind...

 

[ihype02]

^^To prove the point, see below. It's also interesting in light of the fact that Tuscans and far northern Greeks usually plot near one another.

Tuscan:
Mycenaean 62.4
Slav_Czech 31.4
Iran_ChL 6.2

Greek_Macedonia

Mycenaean 47.2
Slav_Czech 33.2
Iran_ChL 19.6

Greek_Thessaly

Mycenaean 56.90
Slav_Czech 35.45
Iran_ChL 7.65

Where did you find all those?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Could political correctness have affected these results? The Minoan results are as expected, but I was extremely surprised by the Mycenaeans having as little Steppe ancestry as they are shown to, or at the very least the elite. We know they were Indo-European, could they really have mixed that much from Southern Russia/the Ukraine to Greece? Why are the elite shown as having similar genetic profiles to the "peasants" in an Indo-European society? This isn't like other examples of Indo-European dominance, such as with the Brahmins of India.

If we ever get Spartan results - that will be the clincher. If they are shown as being Southern Euro or even Middle Eastern, the elite specifically, I'll know something is up - EVERYTHING about them points to very decent Steppe ancestry, from physical descriptions to their way of life.

Same thing, though less so, applies to the Latins.

 

[davef]

If they were really truly trying to be PC they would've made them close to everyone.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

If they were really truly trying to be PC they would've made them close to everyone.

I disagree, but regardless, is it not shocking that members of a clearly stratified Indo-European elite are apparently of the same genetic admix. as the lower class??

 

[LeBrok]

Could political correctness have affected these results? The Minoan results are as expected, but I was extremely surprised by the Mycenaeans having as little Steppe ancestry as they are shown to, or at the very least the elite. We know they were Indo-European, could they really have mixed that much from Southern Russia/the Ukraine to Greece? Why are the elite shown as having similar genetic profiles to the "peasants" in an Indo-European society? This isn't like other examples of Indo-European dominance, such as with the Brahmins of India.

If we ever get Spartan results - that will be the clincher. If they are shown as being Southern Euro or even Middle Eastern, the elite specifically, I'll know something is up - EVERYTHING about them points to very decent Steppe ancestry, from physical descriptions to their way of life.

Same thing, though less so, applies to the Latins.

Oh, not what you were expecting? What a rational...

 

[Angela]

Could political correctness have affected these results? The Minoan results are as expected, but I was extremely surprised by the Mycenaeans having as little Steppe ancestry as they are shown to, or at the very least the elite. We know they were Indo-European, could they really have mixed that much from Southern Russia/the Ukraine to Greece? Why are the elite shown as having similar genetic profiles to the "peasants" in an Indo-European society? This isn't like other examples of Indo-European dominance, such as with the Brahmins of India.

If we ever get Spartan results - that will be the clincher. If they are shown as being Southern Euro or even Middle Eastern, the elite specifically, I'll know something is up - EVERYTHING about them points to very decent Steppe ancestry, from physical descriptions to their way of life.

Same thing, though less so, applies to the Latins.

It doesn't appear that Southern Europeans as a whole have as much "steppe" as Northern Europeans. It makes total sense to me as Central Europe had experienced repeated population crashes, and I'm not aware of that having happened in Southern Europe. (That's also true in Britain.) As for Northern Europe, large swathes of it were empty if not very underpopulated. It may also be that there was more effect at the time of the migrations around 3000 BC from the plague which the Indo-Europeans may have carried, and which may not have been a factor at the later time periods when they arrived in the south, although this is speculation.

An elite, largely male group of invaders could explain these results.

It has to be remembered, of course, that this was a small group of samples, even if there were elite samples as well. More results might change the situation somewhat, although looking at modern Greek results, I frankly don't know why some people expected loads of steppe in the Mycenaean people.

The genetic results are provided in the study. You really think Harvard University is going to be committing fraud in its analysis? Not only would it be unethical, it would be abysmally stupid, as they always release the actual samples, and would be found out immediately by the numerous members of the "Kurgan Brigade" who have staked their "reputation" and livelihood on this.


@ihype02,
Those stats came from a well-respected poster at anthrogenica.

I wouldn't take the "Slav/Czech" in Tuscans very seriously. Most other analyses peg it as "Germanic", but really it just means generic "Corded Ware" like.

 

[Jovialis]

I disagree, but regardless, is it not shocking that members of a clearly stratified Indo-European elite are apparently of the same genetic admix. as the lower class??

There's little steppe in ancient southern Europeans, deal with it. Lower class... sorry if that explodes your false perception of reality.

 

[davef]

ihype02, don't take those results seriously, they're from a tool known as d-stats which allows you to model populations in so many crazy and horrible ways as Pratt has demonstrated.

ToBeOrNotToBe, it's nothing shocking. I was totally expecting them to be Southern Europeans

 

[Angela]

@ToBeOrNotToBe;
I'm getting tired of posting this, but I guess not everyone has read the seminal papers:

Take a look at the amount of steppe in mainland Greeks and Albanians versus, say, Estonia and Lithuania...given that, why would you expect a lot of steppe in Mycenaeans other than wishful thinking? Even take a look at the Basque, all the way in western Europe. Does that look like a comparable amount of steppe to you? You can't hang your hat on Roman era slavery to explain it for them, I'm afraid.

Indeed, in all of Europe the percentages of steppe lowered over time from the levels in the Indo-Europeans. Look at the amount in Corded Ware compared to all modern populations. The areas where there were higher numbers of indigenous people the steppe level lowered the most.

The areas with the lowest amount of "farmer" ancestry are actually areas in the northeast and far east where there were large reservoirs of "pure" hg, which I've been saying for four years or so, to sometimes vociferous disagreement.

It's true that elite graves in the north did feature more "steppe like" people than in Greece. However, it has to be remembered that in Central and Northern Europe, they would have been encountering simple farmers. In the south, at least in the southern Balkans and Greece, they were encountering sophisticated civilizations, much more sophisticated than theirs.

 

[Angela]

@ihype,
The fact remains that the relatively recent "northern ancestry" in Tuscans and far northern Greeks probably is somewhere between 25%-33%.

 

[IronSide]

Could political correctness have affected these results? The Minoan results are as expected, but I was extremely surprised by the Mycenaeans having as little Steppe ancestry as they are shown to, or at the very least the elite. We know they were Indo-European, could they really have mixed that much from Southern Russia/the Ukraine to Greece? Why are the elite shown as having similar genetic profiles to the "peasants" in an Indo-European society? This isn't like other examples of Indo-European dominance, such as with the Brahmins of India.
If we ever get Spartan results - that will be the clincher. If they are shown as being Southern Euro or even Middle Eastern, the elite specifically, I'll know something is up - EVERYTHING about them points to very decent Steppe ancestry, from physical descriptions to their way of life.
Same thing, though less so, applies to the Latins.

You have a very beautiful view of ancient history

Indo European societies may have been divided into 3 social classes: 1- Military Nobility 2- Religious Elite 3- Commoners. How would these castes be ordered after an IE speaking tribe migrates to and domnate some territory with previous inhabitants ?

If we were to take this noble Mycenaean as an example, or even the Brahmins (we tend to forget that they also have major non-Steppe components) we might conclude that these elites may have intermarried with the pre-IE elite of the previous population but optained a dominant position like in a Lord-vassal relationship, many gods of the Mycenaeans and classical Greeks have pre-Greek etymologies and myths, and Hinduism still preserves pre-Aryan elements and gods, I might as well add the Aiser-Vanir of the Germanic peoples(maybe), we are seeing pattern here, the gods of the previous populations are still prayed to, by both elite and commoner.

The third function: the common peasants, the herders, and the craftsmen, also have a reconstructed PIE origin, that means that PIE Yamnaya also had it, when they migrate it migrates with them, sure Yamnaya peasants might have been promoted but its also possible that they retained their social class in their new homes, language shift is more likely to occur if both the commoner you meet in the market and the noble that resides in the citadel both exert an influence.

I remembered when Alexander ordered his senior officers to take local noble wives, he himself did and accepted into his service several Persian noblemen, he also honored the local gods, this could have been the way before between the Mycenaeans and Minoans.

I think this model fits more with the genetic, linguistic, historical and archaeological data than the total "annihilation" of previous cultures. All our ancestors were interesting, whether they had Steppe or not.

 

[bicicleur 2]

You have a very beautiful view of ancient history

Indo European societies may have been divided into 3 social classes: 1- Military Nobility 2- Religious Elite 3- Commoners. How would these castes be ordered after an IE speaking tribe migrates to and domnate some territory with previous inhabitants ?

If we were to take this noble Mycenaean as an example, or even the Brahmins (we tend to forget that they also have major non-Steppe components) we might conclude that these elites may have intermarried with the pre-IE elite of the previous population but optained a dominant position like in a Lord-vassal relationship, many gods of the Mycenaeans and classical Greeks have pre-Greek etymologies and myths, and Hinduism still preserves pre-Aryan elements and gods, I might as well add the Aiser-Vanir of the Germanic peoples(maybe), we are seeing pattern here, the gods of the previous populations are still prayed to, by both elite and commoner.

The third function: the common peasants, the herders, and the craftsmen, also have a reconstructed PIE origin, that means that PIE Yamnaya also had it, when they migrate it migrates with them, sure Yamnaya peasants might have been promoted but its also possible that they retained their social class in their new homes, language shift is more likely to occur if both the commoner you meet in the market and the noble that resides in the citadel both exert an influence.

I remembered when Alexander ordered his senior officers to take local noble wives, he himself did and accepted into his service several Persian noblemen, he also honored the local gods, this could have been the way before between the Mycenaeans and Minoans.

I think this model fits more with the genetic, linguistic, historical and archaeological data than the total "annihilation" of previous cultures. All our ancestors were interesting, whether they had Steppe or not.

AFAIK most Mycenean palaces already existed in pre-bronze-age times
it seems to me that new IE rulers with some steppe admixture took hold of these palaces and these were the new Mycenian rulers
most of these palaces were built on places that were easy to defend but they had little or no fortifications
the fortifications were built last 2 centuries of the Mycenian era, before the bronze age collapse and arrival of Sea Peoples

 

[Odysseus]

What if these Mycenaeans & Minoans burials actually belongs to slaves who were Imported from foreign countries?

The Ancient Greeks were known for establishing slave trades, every Greek household had their own slaves. This was well known.

 

[Jovialis]

What if these Mycenaeans & Minoans burials actually belongs to slaves who were Imported from foreign countries?

The Ancient Greeks were known for establishing slave trades, every Greek household had their own slaves. This was well known.

No, because they are able to accurately identify the graves of elites.

The Greeks knew about how to bury their dead.[2] The body of the deceased was prepared to lie in state, followed by a procession to the resting place, either a single grave or a family tomb. Processions and ritual laments are depicted on burial chests (larnakes) from Tanagra. Grave goods such as jewelry, weapons, and vessels were arranged around the body on the floor of the tomb. Graveside rituals probably included libations and a meal, since food and broken cups are also found at tombs. A tomb at Marathon contained the remains of horses that may have been sacrificed at the site after drawing the funeral cart there. The Mycenaeans seems to have practiced secondary burial, when the deceased and associated grave goods were rearranged in the tomb to make room for new burials. Until about 1100 BC, group burials in chamber tombs predominated among Bronze Age Greeks.[3]

Mycenaean cemeteries were located near population centers, with single graves for people of modest means and chamber tombs for elite families. The tholos is characteristic of Mycenaean elite tomb construction. The royal burials uncovered by Heinrich Schliemann in 1874 remain the most famous of the Mycenaean tombs. With grave goods indicating they were in use from about 1550 to 1500 BC, these were enclosed by walls almost two and a half centuries later—an indication that these ancestral dead continued to be honored. An exemplary stele depicting a man driving a chariot suggests the esteem in which physical prowess was held in this culture.

Later Greeks thought of the Mycenaean period as an age of heroes, as represented in the Homeric epics. Greek hero cult centered on tombs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_funeral_and_burial_practices