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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Yes, Urnfield of the Rhine region were likely Proto-Celts.

    I told you that is not true....but we are going off topic.....

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    I think that "L'Italia nell'età del bronzo e del ferro" by Bietti Sestieri is the most updated synthesis of the Italian Bronze Age Iron Age and she talk about a migration of warriors from the RSFO group.

    Could you post a paper that says otherwise ? thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    PAX AUGUSTA

    That was the theory until recent ( urnfield from the north in the po valley) but recent research are pointing of canegrate being older than RFSO...also cremation in northern italy is older.......see
    MARCO BAIONI: 3rd millennium BC ritual and burial practice in Lombardy on academia.eu ( it refers to the civate group whose practice you can find also in Rocca di Manerba)...but there's more...... cremation in copper age Italy was also in the south ......take a look:
    GIORGIA APRILE ( on academia.eu): The copper age mound necropolis in Salve Lecce Italy: radiocarbon dating result on charcoals, cremated bones and pottery
    If it was present in the north and south it means we can find it very likely also in the Rinaldone group ( Salve obviously is Gaudo culture)
    Schrijver is a very talented linguist... he knows what is saying and he thinks celtic languages likely from south of the alps....

    The thesis I was referring to is this: you can find it online

    Author : Giacomo Capuzzo
    Title: Space-temporal analysis of radiocarbon evidence and associated archeological record: from Danube to Ebro rivers and from bronze to iron age
    As a courtesy, it's our practice here to provide links to papers etc. that we cite. That way, if people haven't read it they can familiarize or re-familiarize themselves with the details of the paper.

    That's for everybody, gentlemen, ok? Thanks.


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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    https://wikivividly.com/wiki/Castellieri_culture
    North adriatic area had Mycenean influence and connections
    Castellieri culture also "merged" with cetina culture on the Dalmatian coast
    http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/...a-Italiana%29/

    Roca, or Roca Vecchia. (archaeological site)

    South Adriatic area (Salento) ;)

    - The University of Salento, has produced some of the best-preserved monumental architecture of the Bronze Age (2nd millennium BC) in Southern Italy, along with the Largest set of Mycenaean pottery ever recovered west of mainland Greece. -

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roca...ological_site)

    I Posted this info before.
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    It doesn' let me post links because I have not enough posts

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    Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    It doesn' let me post links because I have not enough posts
    Marco Baioni
    http://www.academia.edu/35887254/3rd...es_in_Lombardy


    Giorgia Aprile
    http://www.academia.edu/13908593/The...es_and_Pottery

    That’s Alright, I Got This! :)

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    Salento
    thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Salento
    thank you
    You're welcome, Etrusco
    (Prego)

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    From Mirelle David Elbiali ( academia.eu) Elementi di riflessione per una storia dei rapporti transalpini:

    ...Quello che viene fuori da questo corto elenco non esaustivo e che ci sono in quest'epoca più oggetti della facies Scamozzina -Monza e soprattutto canegrate nelle regioni nord-alpine che oggetti nord alpini nella Lombardia occidentale. Possiamo parlare di una vera influenza di queste culture e NON CI SONO INDICI DI UN ARRIVO MASSICCIO DI POPOLAZIONI NORD ALPINE "CELTICHE" IN QUESTO PERIODO A SUD DELLE ALPI ( sta parlando significativamente del bronzo recente ( 1400-1250 AC), come invece sostennero a loro tempo Ferrante Rittatore Vonwiller.......

    Couple this with Capuzzo thesis and with the fact that the "cremation revolution" was in northern italy present since ( at least because we do not know the burial custom of lagozza) the 3500 BC ( in the pre-alpine area because on the po plain there was the single grave remedello style burial).
    I do not question the importance of the pannonian plain as a foyer of urnfield but clearly the po valley was a starting point too so to explain cremation north of the alps in central-western europe there's no need to look so distant in the east when you have just the same cultural aspects just round the corner south of the alps......

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Those are just his conclusions and Copper Age cremation was sporadic and very different from that of fhe Bronze Age...ashes were not placed in urns, for example.

    A paper about Viverone culture and later Canegrate

    http://www.academia.edu/2563671/Vive...Piemont_Italy_

    Apparently that area was already connected with the North of the Alps, even before Urnfields, (Tumulus culture)

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    cato

    It was not sporadic and also it continued till the arrival of...christianity ( in Lombardy cremation goes from middle IV millennium till the first centuries CE).
    I do not find a paper that talks about cultural traits in Viverone that seem older than tumulus culture ones. I will post it as soon as possible. So Viverone could even reinforce my point. Of course copper age funerary usages are not the same of urnfield ones. Daughter cultures are not exactly the same as the father ones. However papers I linked speak for themselves just connect the dots.

    Which part of Italy are you from ?

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    etrusco

    Are you aware that according to the latest ancient Dna studies there has been a big immigration from Central Europe in Northern Italy after Remedello ?

    Remedello people and Otzi were most similiar to Sardinians from the interior (even the Y DNA) than modern day Lombards.

    So this is in line with what most scholars says, the influences were mostly North->South (at least in the Bronze Age).

    P.S. Not from the North but i have some ancestry from there

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    etrusco

    Are you aware that according to the latest ancient Dna studies there has been a big immigration from Central Europe in Northern Italy after Remedello ?

    Remedello people and Otzi were most similiar to Sardinians from the interior (even the Y DNA) than modern day Lombards.

    So this is in line with what most scholars says, the influences were mostly North->South (at least in the Bronze Age).

    P.S. Not from the North but i have some ancestry from there

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    Ok but we are talking about another issue we'll see what happens with the new reich papers on Italy from neolithic to bronze age.
    In the nolithic and copper age there was influence from Italy to north of the alps. Now back to myceneans and minoans.
    Un saluto. We italians will have plenty of time to talk on this forum since we are not playing at the world cup!
    Last edited by etrusco; 18-06-18 at 01:00.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Ok but we are talking about another issue we'll see what happens with the new reich papers on Italy from neolithic to bronze age.
    In the nolithic and copper age there was influence from Italy to north of the alps. Now back to myceneans and minoans.
    Un saluto. We italians will have plenty of time to talk on this forum since we are not playing at the world cup!
    What a strange Italian to find that amusing.

    Also, another reminder. Post links to material you are citing in support of your "theories".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What a strange Italian to find that amusing.

    Also, another reminder. Post links to material you are citing in support of your "theories".

    As for the world cup maybe I just typed not the right emoticon. I do not find it amusing. We wouldn't however have won anyway.....

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    As for the world cup maybe I just typed not the right emoticon. I do not find it amusing. We wouldn't however have won anyway.....
    So they said last time. :) Those last two matches still live happily in my memory.

    Granted, wouldn't be the same kind of squad.

    Sorry to have gone off topic.

    Back to the origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans. :)

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    The Bronze Age Anatolia individual:
    "This individual wasancestral for the major subclade3 P58 (J1a2b; previously designated3 J1e) and could thus bedesignated as J1a(xJ1a2b)."


    Is this sample Minoan?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Why would it be Minoan when it's labeled Bronze Age Anatolian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why would it be Minoan when it's labeled Bronze Age Anatolian?
    I know but they have some weird names like Armenoi, so I just wanted to be sure.
    Last edited by ihype02; 20-06-18 at 17:20.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I know but they have some wierd names like Armenoi, so I just want to be sure.
    Armenoi is just the name of a village in Crete where the sample comes from. This name doesn't imply anything about this ancient sample. It's known as the late Bronze Age Necropolis of Armenoi in Crete.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenoi


    Late Minoan III Necropolis of Armenoi

    The Necropolis of Armenoi (1390-1190 BCE), situated on the NW coast of Crete, 10 km. south and above the town of Rethymnon, is the only intact necropolis that dates to this period and the preservation of the finds and the human skeletal remains is outstanding. Work at the Necropolis commenced in 1969 and continues under the direction of Dr. Yannis Tzedakis. To date two hundred and thirty-two chamber tombs of varying sizes have been revealed. The abundance and artistic excellence of the artefacts found in the tombs is extraordinary. They include in excess of eight hundred decorated vases, seven hundred undecorated and coarse vessels, and three hundred and fifty bronzes. They include thirty-four decorated larnakes (sarcophagi), two of which are polychrome. Unique finds are a stirrup jar with a Linear B inscription, a boar's tooth helmet, and a reed basket decorated with bronze nails. The tombs contained the human remains of approximately one thousand individuals. A range of biomolecular analyses (organic residue analysis and stable isotope analysis) was conducted on material from the Necropolis of Armenoi as part of a project directed by Tzedakis and Martlew which covered sixteen Bronze Age Greek sites. The results of the
    scientific work, in which the Necropolis of Armenoi featured prominently, were incorporated in an exhibition that was mounted in seven international museums.

    We undertook biochemical analysis (collagen extraction and isotope analysis) of the sample used for DNA analysis (ARM 503) to assess its state of preservation. The bone was well preserved, with a collagen yield of 6%, and carbon and nitrogen isotope values of d13C=-19.8 ‰ and d15N= 7.4 ‰.


    Sample
    • Armenoi 503 (I9123, 89 I): Female adult from Tomb 160 (LM III A2, ca. 1370-1340 BCE).


    Tzedakis, Y and Martlew, H. (eds.) (1999). Minoans and Mycenaeans Flavours of their Time. Kapon Editions, Athens, Greece.
    Tzedakis, Y, Martlew, H. and M. Jones (eds.) (2008). Archaeology Meets Science: Biomolecular Investigations in Bronze Age Greece. Oxbow Books, Oxford, U.K.



    Source: https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...23310-s1_0.pdf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    "I0073 (Minoan from Lasithi)This individual was derived for mutation L26:22942897T->C (J2a1) as well as upstream mutationsM410, L559, L152 (J2a). He was ancestral for several downstream haplogroups: M322:15469740C->A (J2a1a), L560:21899860C->T (J2a1b1a), M166:21764694C->T (J2a1b2), M68:21878700A->G(J2a1c), M339:2881367T->G (J2a1e), L24:14286528G->A (J2a1h), L88.2:17595842T->C andL198:17595861A->C (J2a1i). He could thus be designated as J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1a, J2a1b2, J2a1c,J2a1e, J2a1h, J2a1i)."
    Minoan I0073 belongs to M319 according to site site:
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0073/
    Can you confirm if it is true or not?

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    This is a list of Cypriot's Y-DNA frequencies of J2a, those two marked in blue (M319 and L210) are found in Minoans and Mycenaeans, others are not.

    14 x J2a1-Z387:

    13 x J2a1-M319:
    12 x J2a1-Z500:
    10 x J2a1-Z7700:
    7 x J2a1-PF5191:
    7 x J2a1-S25258:
    7 x J2a2-PF5008:
    6 x J2a1-L210:
    4 x J2b-M241:
    3 x J2a1-Z7671:
    3 x J2a1-Z6065:

    It would interesting to do a comparison with mainland Greeks.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There's been so much nonsense posted lately about the Mycenaeans (and, of course, Southern Italians and Sicilians) that I thought it would be helpful to post the PCA once again. Please observe that Mycenaeans are by no means Anatolia Bronze Age people. Not even the Minoans are that. They are clearly Early Anatolian farmer stock pulled toward the Caucasus. This all makes sense, of course, since they were in the area first settled by these farmers.

    In terms of modern day populations, the Mycenaeans plot right on top of Sicilians. The Minoans plot pretty close to some modern Jewish groups, perhaps partly because of lots of unadmixed early Anatolian farmer ancestry. Yes, projection may distort things a bit, but he general fact is correct.


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    I know, remember those wacky percentages from Eurogenes that had southern Italians being less Mycenaean than tuscans for gods sake? That's ridiculous. I don't see a Tuscan anywhere in that cluster (I'm not singling out tuscans, just that they were modeled as having more "Mycenaean" than sicilians and s Italians).

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I know, remember those wacky percentages from Eurogenes that had southern Italians being less Mycenaean than tuscans for gods sake? That's ridiculous. I don't see a Tuscan anywhere in that cluster (I'm not singling out tuscans, just that they were modeled as having more "Mycenaean" than sicilians and s Italians).
    He has his own agenda. The amusing thing is that if you read his threads, by the end the title he hopefully put forward has been proven mostly, if not completely false.

    Also amusingly, Northern Italians, but even Tuscans, plot near LNBA samples, NOT Mycenaean.

    Posters on other sites are even worse.

    That's why one should stick with academic papers and not with models which half the time are chronologically, geographically and every other which way impossible, not to mention the sad souls who are still using gedmatch calculators based on modern samples and comparing data drawn from who knows where. When they venture into other statistical tools to do "modeling" it's absolutely clear they have no clue how to use them.

    I would recommend to everyone to wait for the ancient data.
    Last edited by Angela; 03-08-18 at 00:47.

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