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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    A PCA only captures two dimensions, although they are the most important dimensions.

    However, even without the Reich Lab comment on it, all you had to do was see how few alleles are in it. It's a damaged sample. When you have such low quality samples you shouldn't be using them to create any grand theories.

    It's just dishonest.

    Again with the pigmentation. The ancients portrayed women as lighter and men as darker because the men are tanned. Mediterraneans TAN. If they didn't they couldn't survive in their climates. Is that a difficult concept? It seems so.





    Last edited by Angela; 06-08-18 at 03:12.


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    Yes Pax Augusta, I saw the Lazaridis work after you reminded me in the post number 1068.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Yeah it was so weird when I saw it. Actually Minoans turned to be more European than I expected. They appeared so dark in ancient paitings one would think they were the cousins of Egyptians.
    What others said is correct more or less. There are artistic conventions in Cretan art.

    Αpart from that...

    The Greek sources point to some variance in pigmentation and both the lighter and darker pigmentations had some positive connotations in some ancient works. For example, the darker pigmentations were considered more 'manly', the lighter more 'god-like' etc

    Here is for example what is written in the Republic.

    One because his nose is uptilted, you will praise as piquant,the beak of another you will pronounce right royal, theintermediate type you say strikes the harmonious mean, the swarthy are of manly aspect, the white are children of godsdivinely fair, and as for 'honey-hued', do you suppose thevery word is anything but the euphemistic invention ofsome lover who can feel no distaste for sallowness ...(Republic V.474d-e)
    Each translator has to make many choices. And the choices they made were often bad or questionable. For example the word they translate as 'uptilted' often has a meaning snub-nosed, flat-nosed too.

    Actually that translator, practically, has added something that doesn't exist in the original. The expression 'divenely fair' doesn't exist in the text. That translation is ~115 years old (Oxford University Press) though.

    The words translated as 'swarthy' and 'white' should be translated as 'dark' and 'light'. What he meant exactly is uncertain because color terms are relative but the words 'swarthy' and 'white' are loaded. It is definetely a bad choice to use them.

    So if we remove the additions and avoid loaded words we would have something like

    One because he is σιμός* will be praised by you as charming (pleasing), the beak of another you will say is royal, the intermediate type you say is very well proportioned, the darker ones will be seen as manly, the lighter ones to be children of gods, and as for honey-hued (lit. honey-yellow/green), do you suppose the very word (lit. name) is anything but the invention (lit. creation) of some lover who tolerates and uses endearing names for sallowness (yellowness, pallor)... (Republic V.474d-e)
    *σιμός = either someone with uptilted nose or more often someone with flat-nose, someone snub-nosed etc (the word had been used for the noses of 'Ethiopians' and Scythians by different authors)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    This is the position of Crete Armenoi in the Lazaridis' PCA. I don't understand why people don't trust someone like Lazaridis who is Research Associate at Harvard Medical School, but people rather trust more Gedmatch and bloggers who have no B.A., M.S., PhD, and do not work in any academic department.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post








    Well, those frescoes are very far from a naturalistic representation. Naturalistic painted portraits start to spread much later.

    It's all about being upset over their findings. Also, some people have a tendency to claim that samples who are very "southern"
    (being mostly Neolithic farmer/Caucasus) like the Minoans and Mycenaeans in this study are lowly peasants and the mighty rulers, the great
    elites of the kingdom have the most amount of steppe (they just haven't been sampled yet).
    Last edited by davef; 06-08-18 at 16:05.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    This is the position of Crete Armenoi in the Lazaridis' PCA. I don't understand why people don't trust someone like Lazaridis who is Research Associate at Harvard Medical School, but people rather trust more Gedmatch and bloggers who have no B.A., M.S., PhD, and do not work in any academic department.
    Indeed, idk why people trust these amateur calculators and even many tawdry consumer genomic tests more than the academic authority of Harvard Medical school. The name itself is synonymous with the highest academic excellence. Not to mention that Harvard has conducted the lion's share of genetic research in the past decade. People need to accept the fact that the integrity of their sources are hierarchical. And some calculator produced by a layman, is comically far from being in the same league.

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    Guys I missed the tittle Crete_Armenoi in the PCA. Stop being so dramatic, of course I would trust a Harvard scientist over a simple calculator. Goodness!

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    Ok guys
    Today something new found,
    which gives another dimension among Minoans and Eteocretans

    http://www.fimes.gr/2018/08/kriti-mi...#axzz5NbvB5Dsl

    they have found 2 Minoitic style larnax (bone storage cube) at Ierapetra.
    they contain 2 skeletons.

    that means 2 mainly things

    1 we can have more data about Minoan Geneticks

    2 The boundaries among Minoans and EteoCretans are not clear,
    since Ierapetra until today was not consider Minoan,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This map has been posted here many times, but I found something which I am not aware if it was posted somewhere else but ...
    Those triangles in the red circle (very close to Mainland Greeks and Albanians) are labelled wrongly by Laziridis as North Italian, they are in fact Tuscans:



    Got this from TheApricity:
    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...dis-et-al-2016

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    This map has been posted here many times, but I found something which I am not aware if it was posted somewhere else but ...
    Those triangles in the red circle (very close to Mainland Greeks and Albanians) are labelled wrongly by Laziridis as North Italian, they are in fact Tuscans:



    Got this from TheApricity:
    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...dis-et-al-2016
    No, it's not a mistake. In this set of samples Italy North is everything north of Rome, so it includes Toscana. That's the location of the real break in the genetic cline in Italy.
    The triangles to the left or "north" of the Toscani are people like the Bergamo Italians. South of the Tuscans and closer to the Sicilians would be regions like Abruzzo.

    Did you really think Lazaridis and most of the great population geneticists of the world would make such a fundamental mistake? Never read theapricity; it rots the brain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, it's not a mistake. In this set of samples Italy North is everything north of Rome, so it includes Toscana. That's the location of the real break in the genetic cline in Italy.
    The triangles to the left or "north" of the Toscani are people like the Bergamo Italians. South of the Tuscans and closer to the Sicilians would be regions like Abruzzo.

    Did you really think Lazaridis and most of the great population geneticists of the world would make such a fundamental mistake? Never read theapricity; it rots the brain.
    Thank you for the explanation.

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    ................

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So much for blonde-blue eyed Mycenaeans.

    In almost all ancient Greek vases the people appear with dark hair. In mosaics they tend to be lighter though.


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    western anatolian turks definitly overlap with greeks or at least there is no magical gap between them. maybe some of them are pulled away a bit because of their central asian ancestry.

    @Angela "Again with the pigmentation. The ancients portrayed women as lighter and men as darker because the men are tanned. Mediterraneans TAN"

    maybe it's also because women generally have lighter skin than men probably because they need more sunlight during pregnancy. but when darker skin was considered more manly i imagine lighter skinned women were considered more feminin so the wealthy ones tried to stay out of the sun.

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    See Post 1083. See any overlap there????

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    yes i actually do. the problem is that i don't know from where exactly these point are coming from. here is a graphic from lazardis which shows from where the samples came but not i couldn't find more accurate data.


    but it seems like there are only samples from western turkey and eastern turkey but not from between those locations. maybe they took a lot of samples from western turkey and they all plotted near iran or they did not take many samples from western turkey and those they took are actually the ones that plot near the greeks. if that is the case then it could be possible that the area between the turkish dots near greece in that pca and the dots near iran would be completely filled out if there were more samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    yes i actually do. the problem is that i don't know from where exactly these point are coming from. here is a graphic from lazardis which shows from where the samples came but not i couldn't find more accurate data.


    but it seems like there are only samples from western turkey and eastern turkey but not from between those locations. maybe they took a lot of samples from western turkey and they all plotted near iran or they did not take many samples from western turkey and those they took are actually the ones that plot near the greeks. if that is the case then it could be possible that the area between the turkish dots near greece in that pca and the dots near iran would be completely filled out if there were more samples.
    You must have confused the icons. The Turks are round blue circles without a black border. They don't plot near any Greeks at all. The few who are somewhere in no man's land between the island Greeks and Turks (3 out of dozens) may have Balkan ancestry (perhaps Albanian) given the great population exchanges. Even if they are all Turkish for the last 100 years or so, they are outliers.

    You need data for conclusions, not one what had speculated before dna or what one wishes were the case. The results are what they are.

    If you want to find out where, specifically, they're from, there's usually data on the source of the samples in the paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You must have confused the icons. The Turks are round blue circles without a black border.
    ups sry. i didnt realize that the pca in this forum has different icons. here is the pca from the lazardis study where i took the other picture. here the turks are dark blue triangles.




    it's true that my last post is just an assumption but to be fair saying that those points are people with balkan ancestry is also an assumption. what if those points are exactly the ones from western turkey while the rest is from eastern turkey? i will search more data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    ups sry. i didnt realize that the pca in this forum has different icons. here is the pca from the lazardis study where i took the other picture. here the turks are dark blue triangles.




    it's true that my last post is just an assumption but to be fair saying that those points are people with balkan ancestry is also an assumption. what if those points are exactly the ones from western turkey while the rest is from eastern turkey? i will search more data.
    Yes, I know. That's why I said they might also be actual Turks who plot nearer, but do NOT overlap with Greeks. Also, they're outliers.

    The samples come from the Asymetrix Human Origins Genotype Array. I've never been able to find a site that gives the source for all the samples. I hope you have better luck. It would be very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, it's not a mistake. In this set of samples Italy North is everything north of Rome, so it includes Toscana. That's the location of the real break in the genetic cline in Italy. The triangles to the left or "north" of the Toscani are people like the Bergamo Italians. South of the Tuscans and closer to the Sicilians would be regions like Abruzzo.
    Agreed, anyway those in the red circle are indeed Tuscans, that Lazaridis' PCA for everything north of Rome has ony Bergamo HGDP and Tuscan HGDP.

    Genetic cline of Italy was already showed by Barbujani 37 years ago. According to Barbujani there is no genetic boundary between the Tuscans and the northern Italians.

    On the left, the linguistic boundaries of Italy. On the right, the genetic ones.

    Source:
    Am J Hum Genet. 1991 Feb;48(2):398-411.
    Barbujani G1, Sokal RR, Genetic population structure of Italy. II. Physical and cultural barriers to gene flow.


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1683007/


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It is what it is: whatever yDna the new group that moved into Greece carried, the impact was slight. The analysis in the Supplement is more than excellent, including a new statistical tool that hasn't even been formally released yet, but will soon make its way into Admixtools, I'm sure. The data was analyzed in every possible way. It has to be read carefully. The "steppe" impact was 4-16% or 13-18% depending on the method used. That makes sense because wherever the origin, there would have been dilution all along the way.

    The modern Greeks have steppe ancestry of about 20%, and that's in more northern areas. What huge impact did the Slavs have? How does this invalidate the argument for continuity?

    Surely we don't have to go over again how yDna is not a reliable predictor of total ancestry? Nor should we have to keep saying again and again that without ancient dna it's all just speculation.

    As I elaborated upon above, the impact of the steppe people is going to be very different when encountering a densely populated, culturally advanced area than when reaching large un-or-depopulated areas.

    Most modern day Greeks have the majority of their ancestry from people who have been in Greece since the Neolithic. If you extend that to the Bronze Age, it's the vast majority of their ancestry.

    Oh, I had forgotten to point to this part of the supporting information.

    Symmetry testing of Mycenaeans with Modern Greek populations. He does analyze some samples from Thessaloniki. Take a look.


    See:
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...23310_SF8.html

    Ed.
    @Pax, I see we cross-posted. Thanks for posting the actual graphic.

    People should really take a look at the map of the areas we're talking about, which I posted upthread. Most of northern Greece was "colonized" by the Greeks, often not until the period of classical Greece. I have in the past posted papers documenting that. It's easily checked.

    David Reich, Nick Patterson, and Wolfgang Haak, Krause, etc. are not Greeks of any variety. Claiming ethnic bias is really not going to work in this case.
    Do you believe that modern Greeks are largely descended from Mycenaeans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Do you believe that modern Greeks are largely descended from Mycenaeans?
    I will ask you the oposite.
    Do you believe that Mycenean or Dorian or NW Greek descendance is upsent from modern Greeks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I will ask you the oposite.
    Do you believe that Mycenean or Dorian or NW Greek descendance is upsent from modern Greeks?
    I do not believe modern Greeks are largely descended from Mycenaeans, I am not sure about Classical Greeks. We need ancient DNA for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I do not believe modern Greeks are largely descended from Mycenaeans, I am not sure about Classical Greeks. We need ancient DNA for that.
    Modern Greeks are mostly descended from Neolithic farmers, just like Mycenaeans. Many modern Greeks are brunettes with brown eyes and olive or light olive skin. That’s probably been around in the region for a long time. A good number of Greeks are recognizable, where their looks give away their ethnicity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Modern Greeks are mostly descended from Neolithic farmers, just like Mycenaeans. Many modern Greeks are brunettes with brown eyes and olive or light olive skin. That’s probably been around in the region for a long time. A good number of Greeks are recognizable, where their looks give away their ethnicity.
    Why are Ashkenazi Jews closer to Mycenaeans than Modern Greeks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I do not believe modern Greeks are largely descended from Mycenaeans, I am not sure about Classical Greeks. We need ancient DNA for that.
    Fascinating. I'd love to see your detailed analysis showing where the Reich Lab got it all wrong in this analysis.

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