Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[DuPidh]

When we find ancient Dorian and Ionian DNA I will be convinced. Facts are facts.I do not believe the old Greeks were Nordic.

And I did not neg rate anyone. However with all J in Crete I highly doubt if the Dorians did massive replacement in Mycenaean populace.

How do you explain the replacement of the writing system?

It could be nonsense, but for me facts don't add up.

 

[Angela]

Ok! I was in mood of not continuing the discussion in this thread, but because of you I am making this comment, the last one:

Here is what I think: The whole story about the glory of Hellenes of antiquity is an overblown balloon.
What is today called Hellenistic culture is in fact a local people, non Hellene, Mycenaean like people culture, Minoan like people culture, which I hope you would agree, were not Hellenes. They had their own writing system, their beginning art and architecture. For reason we would never know, the writing system Hellenes brought was embraced by other populations, non Hellene stock, and makes it wrongly appear today that everything created at that time was work of the people calling themselves Hellene, by the virtue of alphabet. The same way, because Macedonians of antiquity used Hellenistic Alphabet are being called Greeks by some, regardless the overwhelming evidence of them speaking another language


What makes me thinking this way: Its the genetic data brought in light by later studding's and history
From history we know that Hellenes had distant kinship with Armenians (both languages are related).
We also know from history Hellenes were in vicinity of Phoenicians (Hellenic alphabet is an improved version of Phoenician alphabet) Phoenician alphabet is proved is a lot older than Hellenic alphabet. Also Hellenic language shares a great number of word roots from Egyptian. This places the Hellenes somewhere in today's Syria, Iraq region.
Knowing all this stuff, had Hellenes been a majority, today's Greeks genetically should have been closer to Armenians, Western Turks, Syrians, Lebaneese-------But instead is close to Toucans, Albanians. This tells me that dominant gene pool of Greeks is non Hellenic, Hellenes were a tiny minority, pre Heellenic tribes were robed of their achievments

Did you read the paper that is the subject of this thread? The Mycenaeans were 75-80% European/Greek/ancient Anatolian farmer like, call it what you like. The remainder, which is all of 20-25%, was split between steppe like and Caucasus like.

Their "Caucasus" component was extremely low. Their Levantine component was about 5%. Go back and read this paper THOROUGHLY! Armenians and Turks have extremely large percentages of Caucasus. The Near East changed A LOT after the first farmers went to Europe. Did you not read all those papers I listed on the sticky thread? Syrians and Lebanese have extremely large percentages of Levantine Neolithic because the Caucasus genetic flow south didn't affect them as much.

Just look at the PCA a few posts upthread. Mycenaeans don't plot ANYWHERE near the Lebanese or the Armenians.

How the HECK could the Mycenaeans have been Armenian or Lebanese or Syrian like???? IT IS ABSURD, get it? It doesn't matter if Greek is related to Armenian or not, or even if the Greek speakers arrived in Greece via the northern flank of Anatolia. It was the Mycenaeans who brought that language to Greece, and they're not modern Armenian like. Rather, Armenian probably moved from Europe to Armenia.

You have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're talking about....

@ihype,
Because there was a huge culture collapse, that's why, even worse than the Dark Ages in Europe after the barbarian invasions. They totally forgot how to write. They hadn't invented it in the first place, just learning it from the more civilized Minoans. After the collapse, they pulled themselves together, started their upward climb again, and learned a new script from another more sophisticated culture of the time, the Phoenicians.

Do you think every cultural improvement necessitates gene flow? Do you think the Japanese adopted all those changes after they opened up to western trade because of all the European gene flow into Japan?

@Ygorcs,
The percentages in your last paragraph are totally off.

People, either Tuscans for the English form, or Toscani for the Italian form. I don't care which.

 

[Dianatomia]

Oh, and I'm sure there's a Sikelliot sock or two around who doesn't want to admit that in some analyses the Southern Italians and Sicilians are more like the Mycenaeans than are the modern mainland Greeks. I mean, what were all those 50,000 posts FOR, after all!

You mean the Classical Greeks. We can already attest that South Italians and Sicilians in some respects are more similar to Mycenaeans than are some modern Greeks. But, in that respect, we should not be carried away. These charts measure the levels of EEF and Steppe ancestry. Sicilians, South Italians and Askenazi Jews are in that respect more similar to the Mycenaeans than modern mainland Greeks, who have more Steppe ancestry. But regardless of that, Cretans, Ioanian Greeks and other Greeks who have the same levels of EEF vs Steppe ancestry as South Italians are on average not more similar to South Italians than they are to other Greeks. And Sicilians and South Italians are more similar to Greeks than they are to Ashkenazi Jews. Even though, in those charts, Ashkenazi Jews overlap with them.

Basically what this research pointed out is that Mycenaeans had high levels of EEF ancestry, contrary to what some others suspected.

 

[Angela]

You mean the Classical Greeks. We can already attest that South Italians and Sicilians in some respects are more similar to Mycenaeans than are some modern Greeks. But, in that respect, we should not be carried away. These charts measure the levels of EEF and Steppe ancestry. Sicilians, South Italians and Askenazi Jews are in that respect more similar to the Mycenaeans than modern mainland Greeks, who have more Steppe ancestry. But regardless of that, Cretans, Ioanian Greeks and other Greeks who have the same levels of EEF vs Steppe ancestry as South Italians are on average not more similar to South Italians than they are to other Greeks. And Sicilians and South Italians are more similar to Greeks than they are to Ashkenazi Jews. Even though, in those charts, Ashkenazi Jews overlap with them.

Basically what this research pointed out is that Mycenaeans had high levels of EEF ancestry, contrary to what some others suspected.

I agree with your last sentence.

I think you mis-spoke as to the first sentence. We can't speak about the classical Greeks yet because we don't have any genomes from them as of yet.

I nowhere said nor implied that the closeness of Southern Italians and Sicilians to Mycenaeans is because the former are totally descended from the latter. Some of it has to do with similar amounts of EEF, as you say. Some of it probably has to do with colonizations during the first millennium BC, and part of it to migrations in between generally from the Balkans into Italy, a Balkans which in those periods was more "Greek like".

We really can't be any more definitive than that until we get some ancient Italian genomes.

As for the Greek Islanders, some of them are, to my recollection, closer to Sicilians than to mainland Greeks, some of them are in between. If you're asking me if Island Greeks are closer to the ancient Greeks than are the mainland Greeks, I think the answer is probably yes. Again, though, we need Classical Greek samples, and somebody should ask Lazaridis to do a comparison with the Mycenaneans for them instead of just for mainland Greeks. It also has to be kept in mind as I pointed out before that even in ancient times the northern most parts of Greece were colonized areas, like the Greek colonies in Italy, and not the heartland of the Mycenaean or even Classical Greek World, which was south and to some extent even east of that.

I should emphasize that I have no horse in this race. It's fine with me if we're to some extent descended from "Greeks", and fine if most of it is shared ancient ancestry. Whatever.

 

[Johane Derite]

Do you also need glasses by any chance? Just look at the PCA a few posts upthread. Mycenaeans don't plot anywhere near the Lebanese or the Armenians.

How the HECK could the Mycenaeans have been Armenian or Lebanese or Syrian like???? IT IS ABSURD, get it?

You have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're talking about....

This was his argument:

"We also know from history Hellenes were in vicinity of Phoenicians (Hellenic alphabet is an improved version of Phoenician alphabet) Phoenician alphabet is proved is a lot older than Hellenic alphabet. Also Hellenic language shares a great number of word roots from Egyptian. This places the Hellenes somewhere in today's Syria, Iraq region.
Knowing all this stuff, had Hellenes been a majority, today's Greeks genetically should have been closer to Armenians, Western Turks, Syrians, Lebaneese-----But instead is close to Toucans, Albanians."


He is arguing that the Hellenic people who brought over the new alphabet were a minority and that all of the minoan and mycanean indigenous populations and their
culture/achievements are disproportionately attributed to the Hellenes.

I don't know anything on this subject so I don't have an opinion either way.

 

[Angela]

This was his argument:

"We also know from history Hellenes were in vicinity of Phoenicians (Hellenic alphabet is an improved version of Phoenician alphabet) Phoenician alphabet is proved is a lot older than Hellenic alphabet. Also Hellenic language shares a great number of word roots from Egyptian. This places the Hellenes somewhere in today's Syria, Iraq region.
Knowing all this stuff, had Hellenes been a majority, today's Greeks genetically should have been closer to Armenians, Western Turks, Syrians, Lebaneese-----But instead is close to Toucans, Albanians."


He is arguing that the Hellenic people who brought over the new alphabet were a minority and that all of the minoan and mycanean indigenous populations and their
culture/achievements are disproportionately attributed to the Hellenes.

I don't know anything on this subject so I don't have an opinion either way.

Johane, with all due respect, IT MAKES NO SENSE.

There wasn't a group of Hellenes who lived in Asia Minor, and brought with them to Greece the Phoenician alphabet AFTER the Dark Ages put an end to the great Bronze Age civilizations. There's no such attested population movement.

There was a population movement from Asia Minor into Greece which brought some "Caucasus" ancestry in addition to EEF ancestry, but it happened BEFORE the steppe, Greek speaking people arrived. Only after the steppe Greek speaking people arrived, in the Bronze Age, did they adopt Minoan script. With the Bronze Age Collapse they forgot how to write. In the Iron Age they adopted Phoenician script through trading with these Phoenicians, previously known as Canaanites.

He has his periods and chronology all screwed up and confused.

Even if the Greek speakers came to Greece by way of Anatolia rather than down through the Balkans, that was in a far earlier period than the time of the adoption of the Phoenician script. The early Greek speakers, like all the early Indo-Europeans, were illiterate.

The genetics further disproves everything he's gabbling about. The Mycenaeans were clearly NOT Armenian or Lebanese like. Lebanese like with 5% of Levantine Neolithic? Plus, that was in them far before they ever came into contact with Phoenicians. The script they adopted was MINOAN.

Do yourself a favor...do some reading on the cultures and ignore everything he says.

 

[ihype02]

Angela those are just hypotheses, when the Ionian and Dorian Y DNA comes I will make my mind up. Simple.

 

[Angela]

Angela those are just hypotheses, when the Ionian and Dorian Y DNA comes I will make my mind up. Simple.

What are hypotheses? None of the genetic data in this paper is a hypothesis. It is what it is, whether some Albanians like it or not. None of the archaeology, which is well-known, is a hypothesis.

Even if the Dorian and Ionian y dna is "different", i.e. E-V13 in the Dorians perhaps rather than J2a, what would that prove? Tuscans have a hell of a lot of U-152. It doesn't make them German.

Male mediated migrations can have relatively small effects on the gene pool. Look at all those R1b black Africans in Chad.

Plus, that would affect the Classical Greeks' genetics. We don't know anything about them genetically. Maybe they were more "northern" shifted.

It doesn't matter. We're not talking about them. We're talking about the Mycenaeans. I wish you people had some idea of the timeline of history in the Balkans.

This may be a little out of date, but it must be better than whatever you guys are using as a mental template.
http://ancient-greece.org/resources/timeline.html

Phoenician script was adopted in the IRON AGE, long after the fall of Mycenae. You can't go making up unknown population movements to suit your agendas. Please point me to archaeology papers showing an attested folk migration of people from Asia Minor to Greece during the Iron Age capable of significantly changing the genetics there.

 

[Johane Derite]

The Mycenaeans were clearly NOT Armenian or Lebanese like. Lebanese like with 5% of Levantine Neolithic? Plus, that was in them far before they ever came into contact with Phoenicians.

He is in total agreement with you.

"But instead is close to Toucans, Albanians. This tells me that dominant gene pool of Greeks is non Hellenic, Hellenes were a tiny minority, pre Heellenic tribes were robed of their achievments"

He is referring here to Mycenaeans being high EEF in contrast to his theory that Hellenic peoples (if they constituted a majority) are higher Caucasus/syria/iraq.


I know nothing about Hellenic peoples and am not supporting his theory or standing behind it.

The only reason I chimed in was because I saw the misunderstanding in which you both agree that Mycaneans were high eef/low Caucasus.


I will retreat now

 

[Angela]

He doesn't know who the "Hellenes" were.

I will end with one of his quotes:

"This places the Hellenes somewhere in today's Syria, Iraq region."

WRONG, WRONG, and WRONG!

 

[ihype02]

Even if the Dorian and Ionian y dna is "different", i.e. E-V13 in the Dorians perhaps rather than J2a, what would that prove? Tuscans have a hell of a lot of U-152. It doesn't make them German.

It would prove that their historical origin is different. Autosomal DNA would help too to show how similar they are.
BTW, U-152 is higher in northern Italy than Germany.

 

[Angela]

It would prove that their historical origin is different. Autosomal DNA would help too to show how similar they are.
BTW, U-152 is higher in northern Italy than Germany.

Yes, it might, in that there is a cline in the Balkans, with "Greek like", more heavily EEF like ancestry increasing as you go south. Of course, the people of the Balkans outside of Greece have a lot of it anyway. Take a look at the Albanians versus mainland Greeks.

I was talking specifically only about Tuscany. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Germans have a lot of U-106, very low in Italy, and I1, extremely low in Italy. U-152 is an Indo-European marker. The farmer markers in Italy are other. One marker doesn't create an "ethnicity". Nor does it determine overall genetic resemblance.

 

[Dianatomia]

The problem is that Dupidh thinks that Mycenaeans and Classical Greeks can not be referred to as Hellenes, which is erroneous for many reasons. Other than the fact that the rest of his arguments don't add up historically.

@Angela

It also has to be kept in mind as I pointed out before that even in ancient times the northern most parts of Greece were colonized areas, like the Greek colonies in Italy, and not the heartland of the Mycenaean or even Classical Greek World, which was south and to some extent even east of that.

If Greeks from the South somewhere in the Bronze Age or even later, colonized other areas and Hellenized them, then Classical Greeks simply had a somewhat different make up than the Mycenaean Greeks. It doesn't make them any less Ancient Greek. We have no norm for Greeks biologically. So Greekness redefines itself as it goes.

Simply said, Minoans mixed blood and culture with IE newcomers to the South of Greece. This created the Mycenaean Hellenes. And whoever was living further North may have had the same process before as well as later. But the bulk of people further North may have not been Minoan, but something else. Perhaps not too different, but different. This does not disqualify them of becoming classical Hellenes, no more than it disqualified the Minoans in becoming Mycenaean Hellenes. Simply said, the process of Hellenization may have been slow, but since the classical Greeks postdate the Mycenaeans by a thousand years, they were probably more heterogenous than their ancestors. Makes sense doesn't it.

Now, if you think that islanders are closer to Ancient Greeks. This is possible, perhaps even likely. But we would need more data to understand everything. Maybe islanders may have less Slavic ancestry. This we can not deny. But at the same time, mainland Greeks may share some other ancestral dimensions which were absorbed right before the classical age, or were further North during the Bronze Age. Or perhaps both. We have yet to see about that.

 

[davef]

He doesn't know who the "Hellenes" were.

I will end with one of his quotes:

"This places the Hellenes somewhere in today's Syria, Iraq region."

WRONG, WRONG, and WRONG!

Let's nail this coffin with an actual result that you posted to remind people that Mycenaeans weren't Syrians/Armenians or other groups from the Caucasus:

Dodecad K12b Oracle results:


#PopulationPercent
1 Atlantic_Med 40.33
2 Caucasus 40
3 Southwest_Asian 9.37
4 North_European 8.38
5 Gedrosia 1.82
6 Northwest_African 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.77
2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.83
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 12.29
4 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.34
5 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.72
6 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 15.47
7 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 15.81
8 Greek (Dodecad) 16.06
9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.16
10 O_Italian (Dodecad) 17.76
11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 18.17
12 North_Italian (HGDP) 20.37
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 21.35
14 Cypriots (Behar) 22.41
15 Baleares (1000Genomes) 28.39
16 Turkish (Dodecad) 28.44
17 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 29.42
18 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 29.63
19 Murcia (1000Genomes) 30.01
20 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 30.25

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
3 78.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.29
4 78.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.5% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 7.43


It's clear they were a heavily Sicilian like population.

Waiting for the secret downvoter to peg me again

 

[Yetos]

The Mycenan world

The Hellenic world (Γραικοι Greeks)

Linear A Minoan
Linear B Mycenean
Cymean Alphabet Greek
Phoenician Alphabet adopted by Greeks (Europe who was kidnaped by Cretan Zeus, was Levantine princess)


the Horse in Mycenean is ικκος
the horse in Greek is Ippos
the Q-P change
same happened at Latin-Celtic?

but the local leader, the local general-commander
in Mycenean Lafagetae Lafayetes Λαφαγετης
in Greek Laoegetes ΛαοΗγετης


THE ARCADO-CYPRIOT (evolution of Mycenean?)

among all ancient Greek dialects
one stays without connection
The Arcado-Cypriot,

as you see the part Arcado- is in mountain of Peloponese,
EXACTLY were Myceneans were
Myceneans also were the First of the IE speaking Greeks who inhabit Cyprus
along with Minoans

Problem solutions

1) MYCENEANS WENT TO CYPRUS?
Historical evidences By Pausanias



2) Arcado-Cypriot is the split of Arzawa-Assuwa
which means Mycenean dialects were Spoken in west parts of minor Asia
before the coming of Hettites,
Historical evidences by Hettit chronicles

3) Myceneans become the free outers of Sparta? (unified with Arcadians, not helots, neither Spartans)

4) Myceneans become the Achaians?
although might be correct if we follow the term Αχαιοι, used by Homer
is wrong at Linguistic terms,
Pausanias, who say that they came from Argolis,
also claim that their homeland was Thessaly Phthia

choose your solution

 

[MOESAN]

- Y haplo lineages don't make by themselves either a global auDNA or an ethny - OK - but the male lineages at some stage of our history have had some weight and they can show the direction of move of some winner people and changes in leadership, and perhaps they can show some correlations at the IBD levels (and not the rough admixture one) -
I know too little to go in depth here -
the consonnants mutations in Greek could show the input of some new sfrom Carpathian Bassin at the Iron Age or just before (some Kw>P even in Romanian, strong Kw>P among eastern Celts and Italics (maybe rather from Urnfields time than only from Iron or between both? I don't know) and also a S>H in brittonic Celts (P-) like in late ancient Greek. These mutations by themselves are not the proof of a total replacement of pop's.

 

[Yetos]

- Y haplo lineages don't make by themselves either a global auDNA or an ethny - OK - but the male lineages at some stage of our history have had some weight and they can show the direction of move of some winner people and changes in leadership, and perhaps they can show some correlations at the IBD levels (and not the rough admixture one) -
I know too little to go in depth here -
the consonnants mutations in Greek could show the input of some new sfrom Carpathian Bassin at the Iron Age or just before (some Kw>P even in Romanian, strong Kw>P among eastern Celts and Italics (maybe rather from Urnfields time than only from Iron or between both? I don't know) and also a S>H in brittonic Celts (P-) like in late ancient Greek. These mutations by themselves are not the proof of a total replacement of pop's.

I agree, after the Sea peoples,
Start the iron age,
many migrations happened that time also,
till the stabilization and new rising of 900-700 BC
I would call it from Istros (Dunav)

 

[Ygorcs]

Ygorcs,The percentages in your last paragraph are totally off.

Why, Angela? I'm not sure I understood your point. When I mentioned "40% to 50% ethnic Indo-European ancestry", I meant that each of those hypothetical peoples would've descend 40% to 50% from their immediate IE-speaking ancestor tribe, though each of them was progressively more EEF/CHG-mixed and less steppe-like as the historic stages from Chalcolithic Ukraine to Middle-Late Bronze Age Greece went by. What's wrong about it? When I say "ethnic", I mean the cultural package, not the genetic steppe ancestry.

 

[Milan.M]

Source: https://www.quora.com/Did-the-Ancie...ns-as-their-ancestors/answer/Michael-Zhang-16

First, let’s clarify some terms. When modern historians speak of the Myceneans, they mean inhabitants of the powerful Late Bronze Age civilization that flourished around the Aegean sea around 1600–1100 BC. This civilization was Greek, in the sense that they spoke Greek; whether the inhabitants were ancestors of the classical Greeks, we do not know. It had several power centers, such as Pylos, Mycenae, Midea, Tiryns, and Thebes, of which Mycenae is the most prominent. This civilization had rich and highly centralized states, as revealed by its grand palaces and golden grave goods. It also had extensive trade links with each other and with the Near East, as evidenced by the uniformity of pottery found at different sites.

Beginning around 1200 BC, a series of terrible events begin to happen that would destroy this civilization and many others around the Mediterranean. Pylos and Midea are destroyed. Mycenae is reduced to a small and insignificant village. Tiryns survived, but its palace did not. Writing is completely lost throughout the Greek world. The population plummets. Pottery is not only much less advanced, but is distinct from city to city, indicating the lack of trade. Greece, after suffering this Bronze Age collapse, is now in the Dark Ages.

When Greece emerged from the Dark Ages 300 years later, around 800 BC, the new civilization is completely different. The writing system now uses a different script, adapted from that of the Phoenicians. Instead of highly centralized monarchies, Greece is now divided into thousands of city states, each with their own form of government. The Greeks living after the Dark Ages knew nothing about the Mycenean civilization that preceded them except bits and pieces preserved in legend, like the Iliad and Odyssey. The world depicted in these epics, however, is a poor and seemingly illiterate society where kings have relatively limited power. Nowhere in the Iliad or Odyssey does anyone read or write, for example, and even the queens (Helen, Penelope) weave in their spare time. While there are unquestionably some remnants of Mycenean civilization in these epics—including the Trojan War, which most historians believe actually happened—the world depicted is mostly that of the Dark Ages.

To the Classical Greeks, therefore, Mycenae was a small town that had no special significance. I’ll let 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides explain:

Now Mycenae may have been a small place, and many of the towns of that age may appear comparatively insignificant, but no exact observer would therefore feel justified in rejecting the estimate given by the poets and by tradition of the magnitude of the armament.

And here is Thucydides on what happened after the Trojan War:

''Even after the Trojan War, Hellas was still engaged in removing and settling, and thus could not attain to the quiet which must precede growth. The late return of the Hellenes from Ilium caused many revolutions, and factions ensued almost everywhere; and it was the citizens thus driven into exile who founded the cities. Sixty years after the capture of Ilium, the modern Boeotians were driven out of Arne by the Thessalians, and settled in the present Boeotia, the former Cadmeis; though there was a division of them there before, some of whom joined the expedition to Ilium. Twenty years later, the Dorians and the Heraclids became masters of Peloponnese; so that much had to be done and many years had to elapse before Hellas could attain to a durable tranquillity undisturbed by removals, and could begin to send out colonies, as Athens did to Ionia and most of the islands, and the Peloponnesians to most of Italy and Sicily and some places in the rest of Hellas. All these places were founded subsequently to the war with Troy.

But as the power of Hellas grew, and the acquisition of wealth became more an object, the revenues of the states increasing, tyrannies were by their means established almost everywhere- the old form of government being hereditary monarchy with definite prerogatives- and Hellas began to fit out fleets and apply herself more closely to the sea. It is said that the Corinthians were the first to approach the modern style of naval architecture, and that Corinth was the first place in Hellas where galleys were built; and we have Ameinocles, a Corinthian shipwright, making four ships for the Samians. Dating from the end of this war, it is nearly three hundred years ago that Ameinocles went to Samos. Again, the earliest sea-fight in history was between the Corinthians and Corcyraeans; this was about two hundred and sixty years ago, dating from the same time.''

As you can see, Thucydides didn’t know about the Mycenaean civilization, the collapse that it experienced, or the dramatic discontinuity that the Dark Ages represented. In his account, nothing dramatic happens between the Trojan War (which he probably believed to have happened circa 1200 BC) and Ameinocles going to Samos (around 700 BC).

Enough about the Mycenaeans. Who did the classical Greeks think they were descended from?

They divided themselves into 4 main tribes: Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians, and Achaeans. The Ionians inhabited Athens and cities along the western coast of modern Turkey. Both Herodotus and Strabo agree that they are of Athenian descent (which is not to say that they’re right). The Dorians inhabited mostly the Peloponnese, and were said to have migrated from the north-western parts of Greece. The Aeolians were said to originate from Thessaly; Boetians were allegedly descended from a group of Aeolians driven from Thessaly, as Thucydides tells us in the quote above. The Achaeans are the most fascinating bunch. Homer uses “Achaeans” as a generic term for all Greeks, but the classical Greeks used it to refer to people inhabiting the region of Achaea in the Peloponnese. According to Herodotus and Pausanias, these people were originally from Argolis and Laconia before moving to Achaea. One hypothesis for the Bronze Age collapse (the Dorian Invasion) is that the Dorians came down into Greece, driving out the Achaeans that originally lived there and forcing them to flee to defensible mountainous regions. The region of Achaea, under this hypothesis, is where they fled, and the classical Greeks’ Achaeans are the descendants of these refugees.

Thucydides was of noble Thracian descent,his father was Olorus a Thracian king and he was critical toward democracy.

(Greek: Ὄλορος) a king of Thrace. His daughter Hegesipyle married the Athenian statesman and general Miltiades, who defeated the Persians at the Battle of Marathon in 490 BC. Olorus was also the name of the father of the 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides, the author of the History of the Peloponnesian War.


Herodotus wrote that the name Olorus, Thucydides's father's name, was connected with Thrace and Thracian royalty.Thucydides was probably connected through family to the Athenian statesman and general Miltiades and his son Cimon, leaders of the old aristocracy supplanted by the Radical Democrats.
Finally, Herodotus confirms the connection of Thucydides's family with the mines at Scapté Hýlē.


Combining all the fragmentary evidence available, it seems that his family had owned a large estate in Thrace, one that even contained gold mines, and which allowed the family considerable and lasting affluence.

This ruling clans (aristoracts) were connected among themselves trough marriages.

Bassically what he is saying is that "Myceaneans" or their culture were replaced by another people or ruling elite.
This does not signify a large scale migration,altough i will agree that begining of Iron age and bronze age collapse there was disturbance,destructions and invasions as evident by archeology and there was migrations to the Balkans,from the Balkans,migrations in other parts of Europe and 'elite' replacement whether more inner migrations or from more far away.

''Even after the Trojan War, Hellas was still engaged in removing and settling, and thus could not attain to the quiet which must precede growth. The late return of the Hellenes from Ilium caused many revolutions, and factions ensued almost everywhere; and it was the citizens thus driven into exile who founded the cities. Sixty years after the capture of Ilium, the modern Boeotians were driven out of Arne by the Thessalians, and settled in the present Boeotia, the former Cadmeis; though there was a division of them there before, some of whom joined the expedition to Ilium. Twenty years later, the Dorians and the Heraclids became masters of Peloponnese; so that much had to be done and many years had to elapse before Hellas could attain to a durable tranquillity undisturbed by removals, and could begin to send out colonies, as Athens did to Ionia and most of the islands, and the Peloponnesians to most of Italy and Sicily and some places in the rest of Hellas. All these places were founded subsequently to the war with Troy.

Thucydides is speaking here more of inner "migrations" and conflicts than migrations from far away.

 

[ihype02]

Thucydides was of noble Thracian descent,his father was Olorus a Thracian king and he was critical toward democracy.

(Greek: Ὄλορος) a king of Thrace. His daughter Hegesipyle married the Athenian statesman and general Miltiades, who defeated the Persians at the Battle of Marathon in 490 BC. Olorus was also the name of the father of the 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides, the author of the History of the Peloponnesian War.


Herodotus wrote that the name Olorus, Thucydides's father's name, was connected with Thrace and Thracian royalty.Thucydides was probably connected through family to the Athenian statesman and general Miltiades and his son Cimon, leaders of the old aristocracy supplanted by the Radical Democrats.
Finally, Herodotus confirms the connection of Thucydides's family with the mines at Scapté Hýlē.

Thrace is also a regional name:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Thracian_Greeks
Thucydides was born in coastal Thrace opposite of the island of Thasos.