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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    R1b PH155 an anomaly in ancient Greece? Why?
    Perhaps a man whose ancestors came from Near-East across Anatolia, if I rely on current distribution of the descendants. Or I miss something?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    R1b PH155 an anomaly in ancient Greece? Why?
    Perhaps a man whose ancestors came from Near-East across Anatolia, if I rely on current distribution of the descendants. Or I miss something?
    I don't see why it's so strange either.

    Does anyone have a recent breakdown of R1b by clade in Greece? I know there's some U-152, but I thought there was more upstream R1b, although not that particular clade.


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    R1b PH155 an anomaly in ancient Greece? Why?
    Perhaps a man whose ancestors came from Near-East across Anatolia, if I rely on current distribution of the descendants. Or I miss something?
    There is NO MARK of it (PH155) in Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't see why it's so strange either.

    Does anyone have a recent breakdown of R1b by clade in Greece? I know there's some U-152, but I thought there was more upstream R1b, although not that particular clade.
    Greeks / Cretans
    R1b-M173 (total) : 17 % / 17 %
    R1b1* : - / 0.5 %
    R1b1a2-M269 : 2 % / 3 %
    R1b1a2a-L23 : 11 % / 7 %
    R1b1a2a1a2a-U152 : 4 % / 6.5 %
    No PH155.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Greeks / Cretans
    R1b-M173 (total) : 17 % / 17 %
    R1b1* : - / 0.5 %
    R1b1a2-M269 : 2 % / 3 %
    R1b1a2a-L23 : 11 % / 7 %

    R1b1a2a1a2a-U152 : 4 % / 6.5 %
    No PH155.
    Thanks. If the first Mycenaeans were R1b, that's what they would be in my opinion.

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    Mycenaeans probably did carry L23. Seeing J2a and G2. R1b-L23 seems a good assumption based on the Anatolian connection.

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    It branched off before Villabruna so it's really far removed from the R1b that would have been spread with the Bronze Age expansions. It is sometimes found in Central Asia and in Armenia & the Arabian peninsula.

    I think the blond & blue-eyed sample is the one with R1b although it's a bit difficult to see.
    It was the R1b guy, he shares the same ID.

    People would have called me (and many others like me) a Nordicist for making claims like this (about the blonde (and in other cases red) hair and blue eyes), and I am by no means visionary - the ancient literature and surviving evidence is clear enough. The only thing that could stop someone from coming to the conclusion of elite, warmongering (but not necessarily - and imo not likely - sophisticated) Nordid types, at least in known Indo-European territory, is cognitive dissonance at its finest. Same goes for the early Latins, for example. They didn't look like Pavarotti, nor did they share the same appreciation for culture.

    These two videos, for what they are at least, agree with the point of the warlike yet unsophisticated Nordid rulers appropriating and invigorating pre-Greco-Roman Med. culture - super high production quality too:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFRxmi4uCGo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46ZXl-V4qwY

    Hopefully the Greeks won't censor further publications like this - I doubt they will, unlike the Egyptians (but that is an entirely more mysterious affair, though Ramses II is clear enough too). Concerning Alexander the Great's father, Philip II - that's going to be extremely touchy if the DNA is still intact, especially considering contemporary descriptions of Alexander.

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    It was the R1b guy, he shares the same ID.

    People would have called me (and many others like me) a Nordicist for making claims like this (about the blonde (and in other cases red) hair and blue eyes), and I am by no means visionary - the ancient literature and surviving evidence is clear enough. The only thing that could stop someone from coming to the conclusion of elite, warmongering (but not necessarily - and imo not likely - sophisticated) Nordid types, at least in known Indo-European territory, is cognitive dissonance at its finest. Same goes for the early Latins, for example. They didn't look like Pavarotti, nor did they share the same appreciation for culture.

    These two videos, for what they are at least, agree with the point of the warlike yet unsophisticated Nordid rulers appropriating and invigorating pre-Greco-Roman Med. culture - super high production quality too:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFRxmi4uCGo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46ZXl-V4qwY

    Hopefully the Greeks won't censor further publications like this - I doubt they will, unlike the Egyptians (but that is an entirely more mysterious affair, though Ramses II is clear enough too). Concerning Alexander the Great's father, Philip II - that's going to be extremely touchy if the DNA is still intact, especially considering contemporary descriptions of Alexander.
    Get a grip. We have DNA from the Mycenaean Greeks - genetically they were more southern than the contemporary inhabitants. Even Central Europe was inhabited by some conspicuously southern populations until recently.

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Get a grip. We have DNA from the Mycenaean Greeks - genetically they were more southern than the contemporary inhabitants. Even Central Europe was inhabited by some conspicuously southern populations until recently.
    Phenotype does not necessarily imply Northern European ancestry. A case and point is that many Ashkenazi Jews can actually pass decently as Europeans and even NW Europeans, yet plot by Sicilians. 9/10 times I could pick an Ashkenazi from a group of Sicilians, but not so in Europe. I'm paler than most non-ginger Englishmen, yet plot like a typical Ashkenazi Jew - right by the basically MENA looking Sicilians. Am I a figment of the imagination of your typical Nordicist?

    So how do you explain the blonde hair and blue eyes of this individual?

    And the fact that the Mycenaean samples were more Northern-shifted than the previous inhabitants?

    What about the Corded Ware-like individuals that have been found in Greece?

    And even if the origin of ancient Greek blondism isn't from a Corded source, what about the blonde EEF samples, and the light-featured Chalcolithic Levantines? The red-haired, pale-skinned, blue-eyed Chalcolithic Armenians?

    I think YOU need to get a grip, mate.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Phenotype does not necessarily imply Northern European ancestry. A case and point is that many Ashkenazi Jews can actually pass decently as Europeans and even NW Europeans, yet plot by Sicilians. 9/10 times I could pick an Ashkenazi from a group of Sicilians, but not so in Europe. I'm paler than most non-ginger Englishmen, yet plot like a typical Ashkenazi Jew - right by the basically MENA looking Sicilians. Am I a figment of the imagination of your typical Nordicist?

    So how do you explain the blonde hair and blue eyes of this individual?

    And the fact that the Mycenaean samples were more Northern-shifted than the previous inhabitants?

    What about the Corded Ware-like individuals that have been found in Greece?

    And even if the origin of ancient Greek blondism isn't from a Corded source, what about the blonde EEF samples, and the light-featured Chalcolithic Levantines? The red-haired, pale-skinned, blue-eyed Chalcolithic Armenians?

    I think YOU need to get a grip, mate.
    There were blond Greeks much like today - no explanation needed. No CW-like individuals have been found in Greece.

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    0 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    There were blond Greeks much like today - no explanation needed. No CW-like individuals have been found in Greece.
    I was in Greece very recently and did not see a single blonde. What broadly Nordid features (basically, light pigmentation) I did see were pretty much always of the Osteuropid type, with the occasional light Armenoid type (there isn't a word for this, but it's most prevalent among Ashkenazim, so I'll call it Ashkenazid).

    Also, check here: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/0...reek-from.html

    Care to address the rest of my points? Or not...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I was in Greece very recently and did not see a single blonde. What broadly Nordid features (basically, light pigmentation) I did see were pretty much always of the Osteuropid type, with the occasional light Armenoid type (there isn't a word for this, but it's most prevalent among Ashkenazim, so I'll call it Ashkenazid).

    Also, check here: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/0...reek-from.html

    Care to address the rest of my points? Or not...
    I'm sorry Dr. Eugenics, but you really didn't make any points that I could address. It seems your knowledge of Ancient Greece comes from youtube videos, so it's very difficult to have a proper discussion. If you want to provide actual sources to support your claims I'll try to address them.

    I wasn't aware of this sample and it's certainly very interesting, but it's from the Neolithic so I think the chance that this has something to do with Greek is rather slim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    the occasional light Armenoid type (there isn't a word for this, but it's most prevalent among Ashkenazim, so I'll call it Ashkenazid).
    Armenoid type (or whatever is) is older than any formation of the Ashkenazim ethnos.

    You can call it Ashkenazid because you're in a forum due to freedom of speech, but Ashkenazid is a pointless name with no scientific basis.

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    There are opinions and there are opinions. Opinions unsupported by scientific data and coming from noxious agendas like Nordicism are valueless.

    When they are designed to provoke they are subject to the granting of infractions. Then there is the fact that if they are unsupported by scientific evidence pointed out by other posters and the same claims continue to be made, they are spam.

    We have been very tolerant toward this poster and his almost always ridiculous claims. Now he is stepping over the line and has been warned. The decision to continue is his, but there will be consequences if he does.

    For the record, the Mycenaeans have been tested, as Markod pointed out. They were not blonde and blue-eyed. Might there have been some blonde and blue eyed people among them or among classical Greeks? Absolutely. Was that the primary phenotype? Clearly not.

    Pigmentation genes are carried on the autosomes, not the yDna. There were blonde, blue eyed, fair skinned people in ancient Neolithic Anatolia and the Chalcolithic Levant. There wasn't an R1b one in the lot. There was, to our knowledge, NO R1B in the Neolithic Near East at the time that these samples were found. END OF STORY.

    Stop spamming nonsense.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    PH155 is almost 0% in Balkans as well as the rest of Europe!
    The basal form R-PH155* appears to be extinct. However, living males carrying subclades of R-PH155 have been found in Bahrain, Bhutan, Ladakh, Tajikistan, Turkey, Xinjiang, and Yunnan.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b#R1b1b_(R-PH155)


    Maybe he was an anomaly? We have to wait for the official paper.
    You 're right in some way - yes statistically it appears very offside in Europe even concerning dates (about 17000 BC, TMRCA about 5200 BC - so an outsider? Or concerning time the depth of analysis made they did not find other downstream SNP's? ATW if there is no error he was surely a stranger in Epirus. It's the geographic proximity of some of the downstream SNPs bearers of today which make me to say it was not "anormal". Because even before planes, people were travelling far and fast!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Here again pigmentation:
    shortly:
    - Askhenazes, if they show in some countries some not too rare light pigmented persons, are still among the darkest pops in Europe; let's avoid to take some appreciable but light percentages as a rule for a pop - that said, this statement of mine doesn't say nothing about the allover physical constitution of the Askhenaze pop of Europe. Today Greeks are dark very often, but less than people of Cyprus or of Sardinia or of Portugal, for what it's worth -
    on another side, I think auDNA admixture and plottings don't say everything to us and even if they show some closeness of far ancestry between pop's they don't show us how, where and when they acquired it - it has already be said here and there more than a time, I think - but pigmentation mutation was not at first linked to the allover genome of pop's or to their Y-haplo's, if it seems it became statistically linked in some pop's, following surely some natural selection linked to geography - depigmentztion in North and Northeastern Europe reached high levels but this evolution concerned previously mixed pop's and so we can say Northern pop's are as well predominantly depigmented HG's and EEF.
    on another side again, wherever was born the mutated genes in cause, we can say that the today sketche of Europe countries pigmentation seems very dependant on historical pop's moves (after former selection), and not only the result of hazard or local subclimates, what don't exclude some depigmented familial lineages autochtonous in Southeastern Europe or Anatolia. Nothing 100%.
    ATW I don't see the relevance of this unique element of phenotypical aspect in the current thread, spite I like old physical anthropology.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    You 're right in some way - yes statistically it appears very offside in Europe even concerning dates (about 17000 BC, TMRCA about 5200 BC - so an outsider? Or concerning time the depth of analysis made they did not find other downstream SNP's? ATW if there is no error he was surely a stranger in Epirus. It's the geographic proximity of some of the downstream SNPs bearers of today which make me to say it was not "anormal". Because even before planes, people were travelling far and fast!
    When I said anomaly I meant a-typical similar to this:

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    When I said anomaly I meant a-typical similar to this:
    Abnormal by his physical phenotype? But why would he have this african-european 'mulatto' aspect? (if it's what your are meaning): the current distribution would point rather to 'caucasian' or 'caucasoid-(veddoid-)mongoloid' influences (surely not "pure" types as you can guess), not pointing to an 'subsaharian' influenced one, at first sight.
    surely the first Y-R1b people were not exactly what we can figure out when looking at today Europeans, but even if he bore an old SNP without downstream SNPs a man at those time in Greece was not looking like one of the first R1b bearers...

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    The Helots in the Peloponnese were probably the original population with the minimal R1a proto-Greeks lording it over them which would possibly explain how the older language disappeared over time and the proto-Greek assimilated many pre-Greek words like Thalassa.

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    Here is a statistical work about the population of today Crete.

    from 1990's original Cretan origin families mentioned for centuries.
    offcourse as long as can be traced.

    it is in Greek,
    use translator copy/paste.
    or ask if you want a translation.

    https://www.zarpanews.gr/apo-poy-kat...i-oi-kritikoi/

    for the record,
    the most significant marks

    Crete has higher blue eye population comparing with Greece reaching 6.7% to men and 3.1% to women
    highest peak at Ανωπολη Anopoli with 16% of local pop.

    Cretans after all mediterrenean populations connect, when compared with Black sea, are closer to Kuban river Adigei and Abkhazian Garga.
    The Arab remnant in Crete, the Saracenoi, from the great Arab invasions and attacks seems to be from Spain's Kordoba origin, not from Arabia.
    The Venician admixture part is mostly obvious by surnames, not easily recogned.

    the North African admixture is about 0.2-2.4%

    All the above is after a 1990's statistical work on native population with long existance in island.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    The Helots in the Peloponnese were probably the original population with the minimal R1a proto-Greeks lording it over them which would possibly explain how the older language disappeared over time and the proto-Greek assimilated many pre-Greek words like Thalassa.
    None of the recent samples cluster outside of the Mycenean's range. With plenty of J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    None of the recent samples cluster outside of the Mycenean's range. With plenty of J.
    You do agree though surely that there should be Z2103 in there somewhere right? So I'd wait until we find it to claim that they were one homogenous population

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I fail to see why a population can't be homogeneous while carrying different y lineages. The latter account for 2% of the genome in males.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I fail to see why a population can't be homogeneous while carrying different y lineages. The latter account for 2% of the genome in males.
    But then you must also fail to see that the chance of Mycenaeans being 100% Y DNA J is slim, which means we need to ask the question: why haven't we seen other lineages (like Z2103) yet? I know you don't though, as you posted about it when the study first came out. And you know I know that about Y DNA, there was no need to mention that.

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