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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    There was continuity in that the same Y haplos that were expected by even some people in this forum were found. The same haplos that are found in the Anatolian mainland. There was not a wholesale replacement by R1b.
    True, but the Peloponnese was part of a different BA tradition, the Helladic, that spread from Thrace around 3300 BC. The Minoan likely came directly via Anatolia.

    There was a leak about an almost CWC-like in LN Greece afaik, so steppe ancestry in the mainland could be old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    True, but the Peloponnese was part of a different BA tradition, the Helladic, that spread from Thrace around 3300 BC. The Minoan likely came directly via Anatolia.

    There was a leak about an almost CWC-like in LN Greece afaik, so steppe ancestry in the mainland could be old.
    Autosomally, Minoans were indigenous Aegean, from the Greek and the Anatolian sides of it. CHG in the Aegean was not recent, but went back to the Neolithic. J2a1 was also ancient to SE Europe - it was present in Hungary in the 5th millennium BC, and the phylogeny and STR diversity of its Minoan subclade J2a1d suggests its early development was in Greece or the Balkans.

    Mycaeneans had additional mixed Southern Steppe/Caucasus admixture (15-20%), bearing some similarity to Middle Bronze Age Armenia, but it looks early (3rd millennium BC), as it fits better with earlier Southern Steppe/Caucasus samples. I don't know if there was any R1 left in the mix by the time it arrived in Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    It doesn't seem that strange that most of the results are J2a since it seems E-V13 didnt spread that early from Central Europe and that could have been the case for Z2103.

    A big portion of the modern distribution of E-V13 and Z2103 could come from Northern Greece (Epirus, Makedonia, Thessaly, Thrace) after the barbarian invasions and the R1a, I2a, and I1 filled the vacuum created in Northern Greece.
    The I1 is far ancient palaiolithic in Greece, it is the oldest mark

    Certain tribes carry it and they are found as more than 70% Palaiolithic

    I1 is considered the most ancient mark in Greece

    the tribes that carry it are compared with Sardinians,
    there was a big search about them,

    Sarakatsans for example which are heavily I1 are compared with Sardinians
    and are far ancinets than Minoans, Myceneans and Greeks.

    I1 populations of Greece, Bulgaria and Slavomakedonia are the oldest population of Balkans
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Most of Greek V13's that are known today belong to younger clades whose ancestor in Mycenean times was located North of Greece. A number of Greek V13's have Arvanite and Vlach origins so they are not Ancient Greek. E-V13 might not have exceeded 5 % in Mycenean Greeks. That is why you won't find many aDNA Mycenean Greek E-V13's until you have a better sample. R-Z2103 was likely somewhat more widespread, but Greek R-Z2103 clades are still poorly known, less than Greek E-V13's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Most of Greek V13's that are known today belong to younger clades whose ancestor in Mycenean times was located North of Greece. A number of Greek V13's have Arvanite and Vlach origins so they are not Ancient Greek. E-V13 might not have exceeded 5 % in Mycenean Greeks. That is why you won't find many aDNA Mycenean Greek E-V13's until you have a better sample. R-Z2103 was likely somewhat more widespread, but Greek R-Z2103 clades are still poorly known, less than Greek E-V13's.
    E Ydna is old enough in Balkans,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    E Ydna is old enough in Balkans,
    How old are E clades (including V22 or V12) on the Balkans is a separate issue from the structure of Greek V13, their likely ancestry and length of their presence in Greece/Ancient Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Most of Greek V13's that are known today belong to younger clades whose ancestor in Mycenean times was located North of Greece. A number of Greek V13's have Arvanite and Vlach origins so they are not Ancient Greek. E-V13 might not have exceeded 5 % in Mycenean Greeks. That is why you won't find many aDNA Mycenean Greek E-V13's until you have a better sample. R-Z2103 was likely somewhat more widespread, but Greek R-Z2103 clades are still poorly known, less than Greek E-V13's.
    Hi Aspurg, in Eupedia you will find the following information. How you see this hypothesis?

    R1a-The Greek branch
    Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    How old are E clades (including V22 or V12) on the Balkans is a separate issue from the structure of Greek V13, their likely ancestry and length of their presence in Greece/Ancient Greece.
    hm

    as E although I believed it was 4k years in balkans, but seems I was wrong, possibly is older, older than about 8-9ky from today,
    probably before Neolithic era,

    as V-13 is a Balcanic mark,
    an Italian university do not remember which, estimated that nucleotid V-13 first possible mutation was today Central Bulgaria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Hi Aspurg, in Eupedia you will find the following information. How you see this hypothesis?

    R1a-The Greek branch
    Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    This theory is supported also on the book
    The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World.
    By David W. Anthony, 2007


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    The I1 is far ancient palaiolithic in Greece, it is the oldest mark

    Certain tribes carry it and they are found as more than 70% Palaiolithic

    I1 is considered the most ancient mark in Greece

    the tribes that carry it are compared with Sardinians,
    there was a big search about them,

    Sarakatsans for example which are heavily I1 are compared with Sardinians
    and are far ancinets than Minoans, Myceneans and Greeks.

    I1 populations of Greece, Bulgaria and Slavomakedonia are the oldest population of Balkans
    Yetos, I surely missed something. Where did you find ancient Y-I1 in Greece? And how many un Balkans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Yetos, I surely missed something. Where did you find ancient Y-I1 in Greece? And how many un Balkans?
    it is from old studies.
    Sarakatsans carry the most I1 Ydna and their HLA and PC show palaiolithic origin
    They are with Sardinians and Basques a special group of search

    if you want I can give you links in Greek,

    They are the oldest population in Aimos peninsula,
    that is a fact,
    and their primary YDNA is I1 in the most clear families.
    they exist in Greece Bulgaria SlavoMakedonia Albania
    They are believed they are connected with Ancient Makedonian Locroi tribes


    The only English I found is this

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._polymorphisms

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    Yetos:
    either you speak in fact of mt-haplo I1, or of Y-haplo I; if Y-I, the southern and "balkanic"-+-"slavic" ones are named today Y-I2a1a and Y-I2a1b; the first is common today in Sardinia, the second appears here and there but is common in Eastern Europe, North as well as South. But what concerning the today Y-I1, first appeared in Neolithic Hungary and dominant today in North?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Yetos:
    either you speak in fact of mt-haplo I1, or of Y-haplo I; if Y-I, the southern and "balkanic"-+-"slavic" ones are named today Y-I2a1a and Y-I2a1b; the first is common today in Sardinia, the second appears here and there but is common in Eastern Europe, North as well as South. But what concerning the today Y-I1, first appeared in Neolithic Hungary and dominant today in North?
    They detected M253 YDNA in the group.

    Not the sardinian type of I hg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    They detected M253 YDNA in the group.

    Not the sardinian type of I hg
    We have up to 10% of I-M253 in some regions of Albania, but the most likely candidate is that its a gothic lineage based on the TMRCA. Not this paleolithic scenario your describing
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    I always thought , Mycenaean Y-dna inherited by IE horse riders, was the R1b. Seems it was R1a. It coincides with archeological findings in mainland Greece. There was a certain invasion circa early second millennium bce.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    We have up to 10% of I-M253 in some regions of Albania, but the most likely candidate is that its a gothic lineage based on the TMRCA. Not this paleolithic scenario your describing
    it seems you did not read the study,
    we speak about the most ancient population of Balkans, the oldest in fact
    and has in Y-DNA a I1, which compining the rest, makes it a unigue race/group.

    so either Gothic, either no-gothic, has no meaning,
    they lived at the limits of Makedonian kingdom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    it seems you did not read the study,
    we speak about the most ancient population of Balkans, the oldest in fact
    and has in Y-DNA a I1, which compining the rest, makes it a unigue race/group.

    so either Gothic, either no-gothic, has no meaning,
    they lived at the limits of Makedonian kingdom.
    May we know the downstream SNP's of these Y-I1 M253?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    May we know the downstream SNP's of these Y-I1 M253?
    No I did not find any further,
    the works are old, they publish decade before.

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    Concerning early neolithic I1 in the Balkans, may I refer you to Maciamo's I1 page :

    The earliest sign of haplogroup I1 emerged from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary (Szécsényi-Nagy et al. (2014)). A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early Linear Pottery (LBK) culture, which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries. This means that haplogroup I1 was present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion.
    What follows on said page is also of interest. I suggest you guys re-read it.
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    So, metallurgy spread in Aegean firstly via Anatolia, not from the North. Hence we don't have any steppe ancestry in Minoans , but only in Mycenaeans. Seems, that IE languages spread in southern Balkans only in second millennium bce.
    But, which was the original Mycenaean R1a branch? If it was really the R1a and not the R1b obviously

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Concerning early neolithic I1 in the Balkans, may I refer you to Maciamo's I1 page :



    What follows on said page is also of interest. I suggest you guys re-read it.
    I was aware of Maciamo's; I was just trying to know if something new was occurred he was not aware of, concerning old Y-I1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    May we know the downstream SNP's of these Y-I1 M253?
    He has mentioned this many times and always failed to show any evidence. He just doesn't know what he is talking about.

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    What does I-M253 in Balkans are telling us? Absolutely nothing. That's typical of large-scale survey, they detect an snp, M253 for the exemple and nothing else. Exactly the same things are happening in Middle-East or Anatolia about R1b or R1a.

    Obviously I-M253* would not been found in any modern population. And all descendants, I1a, I1b, I1c... are likely from Scandinavia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    What does I-M253 in Balkans are telling us? Absolutely nothing. That's typical of large-scale survey, they detect an snp, M253 for the exemple and nothing else. Exactly the same things are happening in Middle-East or Anatolia about R1b or R1a.

    Obviously I-M253* would not been found in any modern population. And all descendants, I1a, I1b, I1c... are likely from Scandinavia.

    the one that found extraordinary in this population,
    cause we speak about a tribe with 3-4 major clans,

    WAS THAT THEY FOUND A COMBO OF Y-DNA and mtDNA Unigue,
    Tottaly Euroepan palaiolithic, while other of their Autosomals are not far from area their live.
    a tribe tottally runaway, but not isolated in mountains heigth.

    Nothing more, They are considered the older pop in Balkans,
    and No I can not find something deeper analysis,

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    the one that found extraordinary in this population,
    cause we speak about a tribe with 3-4 major clans,

    WAS THAT THEY FOUND A COMBO OF Y-DNA and mtDNA Unigue,
    Tottaly Euroepan palaiolithic, while other of their Autosomals are not far from area their live.
    a tribe tottally runaway, but not isolated in mountains heigth.

    Nothing more, They are considered the older pop in Balkans,
    and No I can not find something deeper analysis,
    Dude... there is no living I1*. And the TMRCA of I1( I1a, I1b, I1c ) is way younger than Paleolithic. And we have Mesolithic dna from Balkans without y-dna I1.

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