Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 50 of 51 FirstFirst ... 4048495051 LastLast
Results 1,226 to 1,250 of 1267

Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #1226
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,190
    Points
    39,350
    Level
    61
    Points: 39,350, Level: 61
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 1,000
    Overall activity: 48.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Dude... there is no living I1*. And the TMRCA of I1( I1a, I1b, I1c ) is way younger than Paleolithic. And we have Mesolithic dna from Balkans without y-dna I1.
    then? when it entered?
    and why this population as Pomaks seems to be millenium in S Balkans,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  2. #1227
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Posts
    187
    Points
    2,279
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,279, Level: 13
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 171
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    The I1 is far ancient palaiolithic in Greece, it is the oldest mark

    Certain tribes carry it and they are found as more than 70% Palaiolithic

    I1 is considered the most ancient mark in Greece

    the tribes that carry it are compared with Sardinians,
    there was a big search about them,

    Sarakatsans for example which are heavily I1 are compared with Sardinians
    and are far ancinets than Minoans, Myceneans and Greeks.

    I1 populations of Greece, Bulgaria and Slavomakedonia are the oldest population of Balkans
    Sarakatsani Greeks don't carry I1 Y-DNA. At least there haven't been any officially published Y-DNA studies for Sarakatsani that i am aware of. Although i have personally contacted Konstantinos Triantafyllidis (famous geneticist in Greece) and has confirmed to me that based on his long studies Sarakatsani mainly belong to mtDNA haplogroup H and then to mtDNA haplogroups J and T. No mention of Y-DNA though. What are your sources? Furthermore, Sarakatsani's blood group (AB0) analysis, https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02447575, shows that their frequencies are no different from the rest of the Greeks, therefore how can they be more ancient than Minoans, Mycenaeans, and Greeks? Forget the fact that Mycenaeans are Greeks and you seem to differentiate between them.

  3. #1228
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Posts
    187
    Points
    2,279
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,279, Level: 13
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 171
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    it is from old studies.
    Sarakatsans carry the most I1 Ydna and their HLA and PC show palaiolithic origin
    They are with Sardinians and Basques a special group of search

    if you want I can give you links in Greek,

    They are the oldest population in Aimos peninsula,
    that is a fact,
    and their primary YDNA is I1 in the most clear families.
    they exist in Greece Bulgaria SlavoMakedonia Albania
    They are believed they are connected with Ancient Makedonian Locroi tribes


    The only English I found is this

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._polymorphisms
    I asked you again above about the source of I1 Y-DNA being high in Sarakatsani Greeks supposedly. Here i only want to correct you in regards to the Locrians, which were an ancient Greek tribe that inhabited the region of Locris in Central Greece, around Parnassus, not ancient Macedon. Per Aris Poulianos (a well known Greek anthropologist), the Sarakatsani are indeed anthropologically a very conservative Balkan population of Greek origin, but you seem to be confusing a lot of stuff beginning with their Y-DNA haplogroups which are not published anywhere yet.

  4. #1229
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Posts
    187
    Points
    2,279
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,279, Level: 13
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 171
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    it seems you did not read the study,
    we speak about the most ancient population of Balkans, the oldest in fact
    and has in Y-DNA a I1, which compining the rest, makes it a unigue race/group.

    so either Gothic, either no-gothic, has no meaning,
    they lived at the limits of Makedonian kingdom.
    You seem to have a fetish with Macedon mate. Sarakatsani originated from the Agrafa region of Central Greece. During the 18th and the 19th centuries, they began migrating to Boeotia, Achaea, Epirus, Macedon, and Thrace. But they didn't originate from these regions, they first began from Agrafa.
    Last edited by Demetrios; 18-05-19 at 07:11.

  5. #1230
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Posts
    187
    Points
    2,279
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,279, Level: 13
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 171
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Angela, i am sure that if we had more samples from southern Greece, Peloponnesus for example, they would also overlap with the Mycenaean samples as presented on the PCA for the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews. What's your thoughts on this? The Greek samples are not very varied to give an accurate picture, since most come from Thessaloniki (Macedon) and Crete. It is a known fact that Sicilians are very close to Peloponnesian Greeks. Just as an example have a look at this PCA taken from the "Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718" study, which shows the Peloponnesian Greeks overlapping with the Sicilians.



    Postscript: I didn't read all of the thread, but i did go through many pages. Don't know whether you already gave an answer to this.

  6. #1231
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Posts
    187
    Points
    2,279
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,279, Level: 13
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 171
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I was in Greece very recently and did not see a single blonde. What broadly Nordid features (basically, light pigmentation) I did see were pretty much always of the Osteuropid type, with the occasional light Armenoid type (there isn't a word for this, but it's most prevalent among Ashkenazim, so I'll call it Ashkenazid).

    Also, check here: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/0...reek-from.html

    Care to address the rest of my points? Or not...
    You might as well call it Greek type. Which after all might explain a lot based on what i know about Jews and Ashkenazim in particular. And since you seem to like YouTube videos, here are a couple done by an Ashkenazi, namely Simcha Jacobovici, relating the Biblical tribe of Dan to the Danaans (another name for Mycenaeans), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuqumwTKWUE, as well as this one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XObk07uabLI. He somewhat tried to make them appear Middle Eastern or Semitic in origin, but now we now, they were pretty much indigenous in the area of the Aegean, therefore the influence must have been towards the Ashkenazim, not the other way around. It's not just the tribe of Dan which had an Aegean origin. The Philistines did as well, as this presentation by Aren Maeir (another Ashkenazi), namely "New Perspectives on the Philistines in Light Recent Excavations at Tell Es-Safi/Gath", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJC8OAhm1f4 seems to validate. Forget, all the Hellenistic colonists who flooded the Levant after the conquests of Alexander the Great.

    And please don't take all these the wrong way. Jews seem to have interacted with Greeks for a lot of time. There is also an interesting book, don't know whether you are aware of it, that goes into the vast similarities between Hebrew and Greek. The title is "Hebrew Is Greek", and you can find it for free here, https://archive.org/details/Hebrew.is.Greek, because hard copies are exhausted for decades now. It is written by a Hebrew scholar named Joseph Yahuda, and published in 1982.

    The above genetic study seems to validate a lot of the above.

  7. #1232
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,190
    Points
    39,350
    Level
    61
    Points: 39,350, Level: 61
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 1,000
    Overall activity: 48.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You seem to have a fetish with Macedon mate. Sarakatsani originated from the Agrafa region of Central Greece. During the 18th and the 19th centuries, they began migrating to Boeotia, Achaea, Epirus, Macedon, and Thrace. But they didn't originate from these regions, they first began from Agrafa.
    No

    Saraktsani have 2 primary homelands

    one is the W Rodope mountains
    and the second is the Uper Makedonia, around N epirus, and today Fyrom,

    they moved to Agrafa mountains pushed by Albanians, before ALi-Pasha,
    Both Agrafa and Aetoacarcanian Sarakatsans came from the W Core

    14 % of today Fyrom, around Monasteri are Sarakatsan origin.

    rather the oposite road, from Makedonia And Epirus to Agrafa, than from Agrafa to Makedonia

    and since you know and possibly read Triantaphilidis work on them
    search except their ABO their PC's,
    they seem Heavier on european Palaiolithic, and rather miss some Helladic Neolithic marks,
    possibly a non Thessalian population, nearby sesklo/dimini.

  8. #1233
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Posts
    187
    Points
    2,279
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,279, Level: 13
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 171
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    No

    Saraktsani have 2 primary homelands

    one is the W Rodope mountains
    and the second is the Uper Makedonia, around N epirus, and today Fyrom,

    they moved to Agrafa mountains pushed by Albanians, before ALi-Pasha
    Both Agrafa and Aetoacarcanian Sarakatsans came from the W Core

    14 % of today Fyrom, around Monasteri are Sarakatsan origin.

    rather the oposite road, from Makedonia to Agrafa, than from Agrafa to Makedonia
    Mate, with all due respect, as a fellow Greek, you don't know what you write about. Sarakatsani originate from the region of Agrafa. Their original name was Sakaressiani, which became Sakaretsiani, and then Sarakatsiani. There is also the Turkish hypothesis for the name, through Karakatsiani, although both of these are the most realistic among the dozens of others who lack merit. In any case, i am first and foremost writing from the scope of the Sarakatsani themselves, when i stress their Agrafa origin. It's what they all have been saying since they began their migrations. Also, interestingly their musical traditions are most kin to the musical traditions of the broader region of Agrafa, and not with the regions they migrated to, such as Epirus, Macedon, Thrace, Achaea, etc..

    Last and foremost, i asked you for evidence in regards to this aforementioned I1 Y-DNA haplogroup that you associate with the Sarakatsani. Do you have anything in relation to that?

  9. #1234
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,190
    Points
    39,350
    Level
    61
    Points: 39,350, Level: 61
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 1,000
    Overall activity: 48.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Mate, with all due respect, as a fellow Greek, you don't know what you write about. Sarakatsani originate from the region of Agrafa. Their original name was Sakaressiani, which became Sakaretsiani, and then Sarakatsiani. There is also the Turkish hypothesis for the name, through Karakatsiani, although both of these are the most realistic among the dozens of others who lack merit. In any case, i am first and foremost writing from the scope of the Sarakatsani themselves, when i stress their Agrafa origin. It's what they all have been saying since they began their migrations. Also, interestingly their musical traditions are most kin to the musical traditions of the broader region of Agrafa, and not with the regions they migrated to, such as Epirus, Macedon, Thrace, Achaea, etc..

    Last and foremost, i asked you for evidence in regards to this aforementioned I1 Y-DNA haplogroup that you associate with the Sarakatsani. Do you have anything in relation to that?
    Dude there is no chance Sarakatsani to originated at Agrafa or Aetoacarnania,
    look their PC's, they possibly have nothing to do with Thessaly and Neolithic Helladic marks,
    rather with SE of Ohrid lake, where their genetics flourish,

    As for their I1, no official source,
    Only know that was detected in a Sarakatsan from Perlepe Bitola Monasteri origin,
    when they made my DNA search, around 2004-6. at AUth,

  10. #1235
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Posts
    187
    Points
    2,279
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,279, Level: 13
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 171
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Dude there is no chance Sarakatsani to originated at Agrafa or Aetoacarnania,
    look their PC's, they possibly have nothing to do with Thessaly and Neolithic Helladic marks,
    rather with SE of Ohrid lake, where their genetics flourish,

    As for their I1, no official source,
    Only know that was detected in a Sarakatsan from Perlepe Bitola Monasteri origin,
    when they made my DNA search, around 2004-6. at AUth,
    What PCAs mate? Share because i am not aware of any that exists for actual Sarakatsani, truly. How is it that there is no chance to originate from Agrafa? Do you know how much i have studied the Sarakatsani? At least 5 books from cover to cover, and dozens of private discussions with actual Sarakatsani from all over. I have even discussed with the Sarakatsani of Bulgaria, which are actually part of the Thracian branch and were simply trapped there after the Balkan wars and the introduction of the Greek/Bulgarian borders. You seem to be jumping to conclusions very prematurely based on no evidence. Sarakatsani, genetically have only been studied by Konstantinos Triantafyllidis, and still not extensively, yet you write of PCAs, Y-DNA, and genetics in general. A I1 Y-DNA in a single individual from Monastiri, even if true, is not a reason to be jumping to conclusions about the Sarakatsani as a whole like you did in many of your previous comments in this thread. By the way, where are you from? You seem to be taking this very personally and i am afraid it might be as a result of localism.

  11. #1236
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,190
    Points
    39,350
    Level
    61
    Points: 39,350, Level: 61
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 1,000
    Overall activity: 48.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    I will go in private,

    no need to expand in public.

  12. #1237
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,821
    Points
    248,597
    Level
    100
    Points: 248,597, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Angela, i am sure that if we had more samples from southern Greece, Peloponnesus for example, they would also overlap with the Mycenaean samples as presented on the PCA for the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews. What's your thoughts on this? The Greek samples are not very varied to give an accurate picture, since most come from Thessaloniki (Macedon) and Crete. It is a known fact that Sicilians are very close to Peloponnesian Greeks. Just as an example have a look at this PCA taken from the "Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718" study, which shows the Peloponnesian Greeks overlapping with the Sicilians.



    Postscript: I didn't read all of the thread, but i did go through many pages. Don't know whether you already gave an answer to this.
    Well, if I didn't do it here I did it elsewhere.

    I've said for years that many of the analyses of the "Greeks", particularly the earlier ones, are somewhat faulty because the academics for years only used the Thessaly samples, which plot pretty close to Tuscans, just south east of them, later added to by samples from Crete.

    I know I've seen what are called "Central Greek" samples, which might perhaps include the Peloponnese? However, I can't recall any academic paper which specifically compared them to ancient Greeks.

    If someone has that information, please be helpful and chime in with the links.

    Someone with 100% Peloponnese ancestry should do mytrueancestry, especially someone from the more southern parts, and see how close they come to Minoans and Mycenaeans, or use something like the other ancient calculators on line. Some southern Italians have done it and certainly get hits.

    Of course, what we really need to see are academic papers do the comparisons.

    Fwiw.

    These are some of my husband's results:

    Closest ancient population:



    His closest "Hellenic Roman" sample is closest to modern people from one of the Greek islands, and he shares an actual IBD segment with a Mycenaean.

    Modern populations:



    Since his Calabrian sides all come from areas literally a few kilometers from Greek ruins, I'm not at all surprised.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  13. #1238
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Posts
    187
    Points
    2,279
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,279, Level: 13
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 171
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, if I didn't do it here I did it elsewhere.

    I've said for years that many of the analyses of the "Greeks", particularly the earlier ones, are somewhat faulty because the academics for years only used the Thessaly samples, which plot pretty close to Tuscans, just south east of them, later added to by samples from Crete.

    I know I've seen what are called "Central Greek" samples, which might perhaps include the Peloponnese? However, I can't recall any academic paper which specifically compared them to ancient Greeks.

    If someone has that information, please be helpful and chime in with the links.

    Someone with 100% Peloponnese ancestry should do mytrueancestry, especially someone from the more southern parts, and see how close they come to Minoans and Mycenaeans, or use something like the other ancient calculators on line. Some southern Italians have done it and certainly get hits.

    Of course, what we really need to see are academic papers do the comparisons.

    Fwiw.

    These are some of my husband's results:

    Closest ancient population:



    His closest "Hellenic Roman" sample is closest to modern people from one of the Greek islands, and he shares an actual IBD segment with a Mycenaean.

    Modern populations:



    Since his Calabrian sides all come from areas literally a few kilometers from Greek ruins, I'm not at all surprised.
    Very nice, thanks for your input. I personally know a few people who are from Mani and Messenia, i will try and ask them to take a test and see what we can extract from it. But yeah, it seems strange to me they didn't also include modern Peloponnesian samples in the study. I am sure they will be much closer than Greeks from Thessaloniki. As for "Central Greek" samples, i highly doubt it refers to Peloponnesus. When we say Central Greece we mainly refer to Boeotia and Aetolia-Acarnania, which is the land north of Peoloponnesus and below Thessaly.

  14. #1239
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,199
    Points
    10,445
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,445, Level: 30
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 105
    Overall activity: 48.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    Exactly!!! It's totally wrong to say all or even most of mainland Greece is like the Thessaly samples. If you take a look at the new Roman PCA posted 2 days ago you'll find mainland Greeks plotting perfectly with southern Italians (they're hard to see, they're the diamonds with yellow edges).
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

  15. #1240
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Posts
    187
    Points
    2,279
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,279, Level: 13
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 171
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Exactly!!! It's totally wrong to say all or even most of mainland Greece is like the Thessaly samples. If you take a look at the new Roman PCA posted 2 days ago you'll find mainland Greeks plotting perfectly with southern Italians (they're hard to see, they're the diamonds with yellow edges).
    Can you share this new Roman PCA? Which thread was it posted in? By the way i totally agree.

  16. #1241
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,199
    Points
    10,445
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,445, Level: 30
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 105
    Overall activity: 48.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Can you share this new Roman PCA? Which thread was it posted in? By the way i totally agree.
    right here! And if your friends are ok with testing and sharing their results with us, feel free to post them!
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post576311

  17. #1242
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Posts
    187
    Points
    2,279
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,279, Level: 13
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 171
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    right here! And if your friends are ok with testing and sharing their results with us, feel free to post them!
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post576311
    Sure, thanks for sharing!

  18. #1243
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    27-03-18
    Location
    santa rosa ,ca, USA
    Posts
    71
    Points
    1,222
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,222, Level: 9
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 128
    Overall activity: 28.0%


    Ethnic group
    chinese
    Country: USA - California



    It is not easy for farmers to leave their land and migrate, unless there is pressure from other tribes or invaders, but ,hunters and gathers are mobile , they don't stay in just one place ,
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    It's a new trick merging EHG with WHG in all admixture analysis... what was done with EHG?

    By the way if the common difference between Neolithic Greece and pre-Mycenean + Minoan is the CHG and their old languages were not IE but Minoan and Pelasgian, the CHG side is not supporting much a "Caucasian" IE urheimat.



    Sintashta

  19. #1244
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Aspar's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-07-17
    Posts
    101
    Points
    1,690
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,690, Level: 11
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 160
    Overall activity: 9.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y16729
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Macedonian
    Country: Lesotho



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Angela, i am sure that if we had more samples from southern Greece, Peloponnesus for example, they would also overlap with the Mycenaean samples as presented on the PCA for the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews. What's your thoughts on this? The Greek samples are not very varied to give an accurate picture, since most come from Thessaloniki (Macedon) and Crete. It is a known fact that Sicilians are very close to Peloponnesian Greeks. Just as an example have a look at this PCA taken from the "Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718" study, which shows the Peloponnesian Greeks overlapping with the Sicilians.



    Postscript: I didn't read all of the thread, but i did go through many pages. Don't know whether you already gave an answer to this.
    I am afraid that this study is a failure since it compares the modern Greeks with populations such as Belorussians, Polish, Ukrainians and Russians to determine how much "ancient Greek" or "Slavic" modern Greeks are!

    In order to do such an experiment, your assumption that the Slavs that came to Greece in the Medieval were like the modern Belorussians or Poles, must shift to an assumption that the proto-Slavs who started migrating from Central and Eastern Europe towards the Balkans, must have absorbed and accumulated a lot of foreign blood and with that regard a native Balkan, such as a Dacian or a Thracian who happened to be on their path to Greece.
    We do have native Iron Age Balkan samples such as Iron Age Bulgaria I5769 and Iron Age Scythians from Moldova such as scy300 and scy305 who happen to be way more similar to the available ancient Greek samples than to modern Poles or Belorussians!

    We can observe this phenomenon in every study until now, we have a study for Lombards, Visigoths or Avars and many of them were of mixed origins and yet they were united under a single culture because it is not the genetics that united them but the culture they accepted!

    As such, many modern Greeks been close genetically to Sicilians doesn't mean much unless there is an alternative way such as comparing the y-dna and mt-dna markers or IBD sharing that can prove the kinship of the populations in question and of course, assuming that modern Sicilians are descendants of the ancient Greeks.

    Now, we have here too many assumptions so we better skip the Sicilians altogether and compare the modern Greeks directly to the ancient ones for better results!

    Unfortunately, we don't have many Greeks here who post their genetic results unlike others.
    For example, we actually have a dozen of ancient samples to which we can actually compare our DNA directly using some helpful tools such as Gedmatch!

    Comparing my own DNA, I have found out that I share the most DNA and segments with an ancient sample from LBK Stuttgart which was a Neolithic, farmer like sample!
    Now, this is not a big surprise since this sample happens to be a very good match for a lot of people, you can check out this very useful blog: https://dna-explained.com/2014/10/04...or-comparison/

    Now, when I try to compare my DNA with ancient samples from the Balkans, the best match for me is an Iron Age sample from Bulgaria, I5769, with who I share a total of 7.8 cM with the largest segment being 3.9 cM long!
    I also share a DNA with the Bronze Age samples from Dalmatia, I3313 and I4331, the Bronze Age sample from Bulgaria, I2163 and the two "Avar" samples from Hungary, AV1 and AV2!

    Interestingly enough, I don't share a DNA with the available ancient Greek samples on Gedmatch such as the Mycenaeans and the recently added Classical Greek from the Iberian colony of Emporion, I8215!

    To me, this is very logical and trustworthy because if it was just a coincidence, how come I share DNA with ancient samples who actually are of relevance for the history of the Balkan people?
    How come I don't share DNA with Germanic, Iberian or Collegno samples if it was just a coincidence?

    The y-dna and mt-dna markers are also of great importance and so far all ancient Greek samples had turned out to be J2a albeit we need much better resolution than simple designation such as J2a!

    But even then, modern Greeks are only around 20% J2a in terms of y-dna!

    As you see, once you open the Pandora's box, you will find that there are so many if's, and it's not that easy as a simple two dimensional PCA plot or admixture comparison based on TSI, IBS or other imaginary admixture components, to determine what those scientist tried to do!

  20. #1245
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,821
    Points
    248,597
    Level
    100
    Points: 248,597, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    @Demetrios,

    The particular paper you referenced above has nothing to do with ancient dna and really shouldn't be discussed at length on this thread. It attempted to use modern dna to assess relationships between groups, as many papers have done in the past, but doesn't tell us about the origin of the Minoans and Mycenaeans.

    Post #1244 seems to be talking about the Lazaridis paper which is the subject of the thread, and then rather confusingly jumping to a discussion of IBD matching with ancient samples.

    Given the hundreds of years of recombination which has gone on between the dates of these ancient samples and the present time, which particular IBD snippet any one might have wound up with is random, although clearly it's likely it will be one of the population groups from which that person can claim descent. One shouldn't be drawing conclusions about the majority of one's ancestry from such a finding, however, not to mention that these are amateur analyses which can conflict with one another.

    Yes, one might take a test such as mytrueancestry, or use free online tools, and they could give you a sense of your overall similarity to the ancient samples we have, and they, or at least mytrueancestry, offers an IBD analysis, but these are not comparisons done by academics, and it's very difficult to sometimes to distinguish real IBD segments.

    I also personally find the labeling of the samples at mytrueancestry extremely problematic and quite misleading.

    In terms of the Greeks we also have very few ancient samples, unfortunately, only some Minoans and Mycenaeans, and some from all the way back in the Greek Neolithic. There are no samples from classical Greece for example, although hopefully they're somewhere in the pipeline. The Italian samples are just starting to trickle in as well.

  21. #1246
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Aspar's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-07-17
    Posts
    101
    Points
    1,690
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,690, Level: 11
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 160
    Overall activity: 9.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y16729
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Macedonian
    Country: Lesotho



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Demetrios,

    The particular paper you referenced above has nothing to do with ancient dna and really shouldn't be discussed at length on this thread. It attempted to use modern dna to assess relationships between groups, as many papers have done in the past, but doesn't tell us about the origin of the Minoans and Mycenaeans.

    Post #1244 seems to be talking about the Lazaridis paper which is the subject of the thread, and then rather confusingly jumping to a discussion of IBD matching with ancient samples.

    Given the hundreds of years of recombination which has gone on between the dates of these ancient samples and the present time, which particular IBD snippet any one might have wound up with is random, although clearly it's likely it will be one of the population groups from which that person can claim descent. One shouldn't be drawing conclusions about the majority of one's ancestry from such a finding, however, not to mention that these are amateur analyses which can conflict with one another.

    Yes, one might take a test such as mytrueancestry, or use free online tools, and they could give you a sense of your overall similarity to the ancient samples we have, and they, or at least mytrueancestry, offers an IBD analysis, but these are not comparisons done by academics, and it's very difficult to sometimes to distinguish real IBD segments.

    I also personally find the labeling of the samples at mytrueancestry extremely problematic and quite misleading.

    In terms of the Greeks we also have very few ancient samples, unfortunately, only some Minoans and Mycenaeans, and some from all the way back in the Greek Neolithic. There are no samples from classical Greece for example, although hopefully they're somewhere in the pipeline. The Italian samples are just starting to trickle in as well.
    @ post 1245

    You seem to have missed my point about the conclusion of Lazaridis that modern Greeks are Mycenaean descendants because of around 70% similarity with the Mycenaeans based on imaginary admixture components such as TSI, are just that, a similarity and doesn't mean actual ancestry!

    From whom modern Greeks got that similarity is a different question, but we actually have historical accounts of Thracians migrating and settling in Greece during Roman Imperial times as per Strabon, resettling of mainland Greece with Italians and Anatolians after it was devastated by raids during the early Medieval period and also accounts of Vlachs and Albanians migrating to Greece in the late Medieval period!

    I am saying that these scientist need other methods than just admixture similarity to determine if some people in question actually have any ancestry from another ancient people in question!

  22. #1247
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    59
    Points
    2,280
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,280, Level: 13
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    I don’t think it matters that much, that Balkan populations were omitted from the Peloponnese study of medieval Slavic impact. Balkan populations and Slavs settled in Greece and had a genetic impact, but the Greek language and culture survived and prevailed. How did that happen, if everyone was something other than Greek? The Peloponnese study is robust and includes many individuals who were tested. It seems to be in accord with the Mycenaean study. I’ll stick with scientific analysis until other peer-reviewed tests show otherwise.

  23. #1248
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,821
    Points
    248,597
    Level
    100
    Points: 248,597, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    @ post 1245

    You seem to have missed my point about the conclusion of Lazaridis that modern Greeks are Mycenaean descendants because of around 70% similarity with the Mycenaeans based on imaginary admixture components such as TSI, are just that, a similarity and doesn't mean actual ancestry!

    From whom modern Greeks got that similarity is a different question, but we actually have historical accounts of Thracians migrating and settling in Greece during Roman Imperial times as per Strabon, resettling of mainland Greece with Italians and Anatolians after it was devastated by raids during the early Medieval period and also accounts of Vlachs and Albanians migrating to Greece in the late Medieval period!

    I am saying that these scientist need other methods than just admixture similarity to determine if some people in question actually have any ancestry from another ancient people in question!
    You have confused the two papers. Please go back and re-read both of them before commenting further. In fact, perhaps you never read the Mycenaean paper at all, since anyone who had even skimmed it would know they used multiple analytical statistical methods, certainly NOT just the Admixture program.

    I am not going to get into a prolonged discussion with you until you understand the differences between the papers and what they did and did NOT say.

  24. #1249
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Demetrios's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-02-18
    Posts
    187
    Points
    2,279
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,279, Level: 13
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 171
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Greece



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Demetrios,

    The particular paper you referenced above has nothing to do with ancient dna and really shouldn't be discussed at length on this thread. It attempted to use modern dna to assess relationships between groups, as many papers have done in the past, but doesn't tell us about the origin of the Minoans and Mycenaeans.

    Post #1244 seems to be talking about the Lazaridis paper which is the subject of the thread, and then rather confusingly jumping to a discussion of IBD matching with ancient samples.

    Given the hundreds of years of recombination which has gone on between the dates of these ancient samples and the present time, which particular IBD snippet any one might have wound up with is random, although clearly it's likely it will be one of the population groups from which that person can claim descent. One shouldn't be drawing conclusions about the majority of one's ancestry from such a finding, however, not to mention that these are amateur analyses which can conflict with one another.

    Yes, one might take a test such as mytrueancestry, or use free online tools, and they could give you a sense of your overall similarity to the ancient samples we have, and they, or at least mytrueancestry, offers an IBD analysis, but these are not comparisons done by academics, and it's very difficult to sometimes to distinguish real IBD segments.

    I also personally find the labeling of the samples at mytrueancestry extremely problematic and quite misleading.

    In terms of the Greeks we also have very few ancient samples, unfortunately, only some Minoans and Mycenaeans, and some from all the way back in the Greek Neolithic. There are no samples from classical Greece for example, although hopefully they're somewhere in the pipeline. The Italian samples are just starting to trickle in as well.
    Excuse me Angela, i didn't want to confuse anyone. By the way i just saw the comments, never received any alerts for them. My comment was meant to present that modern Peloponnesians and modern Sicilians are indeed very close autosomally. Indeed this is not an ancient populations study, i simply made an observation and i criticized the fact that no modern Peloponnesian sample was included in the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" study.

  25. #1250
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,821
    Points
    248,597
    Level
    100
    Points: 248,597, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Excuse me Angela, i didn't want to confuse anyone. By the way i just saw the comments, never received any alerts for them. My comment was meant to present that modern Peloponnesians and modern Sicilians are indeed very close autosomally. Indeed this is not an ancient populations study, i simply made an observation and i criticized the fact that no modern Peloponnesian sample was included in the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" study.
    It's absolutely fine, Demetrios. :) You aren't at fault in any way.

Page 50 of 51 FirstFirst ... 4048495051 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •