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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Surely. J2a came later in Greece, during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Ages, although it was probably present in extremely low frequencies from earlier. The same for Anatolia, since J2a was largely isolated in the Transcaucasian region during the Neolithic Age and before. G2a is associated with the "Early European Farmers" (EEF) which in a European context first settled Thessaly (archaeological site of Sesklo) at approximately 7,510 BCE, and then expanded from there throughout much of Europe. The by far most prevalent Y-DNA haplogroup of the "Early European Farmers" (EEF) was G2a, namely some 61% of the total samples that have been tested till now. J2 has a frequency of 1.5%. You may read further frequencies for the rest of the mtDNA and Y-DNA haplogroups here, https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/haplogroups_of_neolithic_farmers.shtml.
    Much thanks!

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    Demetrios, that is really a great post, I learned some important new things, thanks.
    The fact is that most of historical placenames in the north of Iran don't sound Iranian, for example look at these ones in Nowshahr country of Mazandaran:

    Kandolus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandolus
    Sarus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarus,_Iran
    Angil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angil
    Nires: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nires
    Halestan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halestan,_Mazandaran
    Zanus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanus
    Angas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angas,_Iran
    Avil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avil
    Kenis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenis
    Latingan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latingan
    Kandis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandis_Kola
    Toskatok: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toskatok
    Kalik: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalik,_Nowshahr
    Dalasm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalasam
    ...

    Of course almost all of them sound Indo-European, especially Greek, it shows before the arrival of Iranian tribes, this region was inhabited by Greeks or some other IE people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Demetrios, that is really a great post, I learned some important new things, thanks.
    The fact is that most of historical placenames in the north of Iran don't sound Iranian, for example look at these ones in Nowshahr country of Mazandaran:

    Kandolus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandolus
    Sarus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarus,_Iran
    Angil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angil
    Nires: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nires
    Halestan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halestan,_Mazandaran
    Zanus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanus
    Angas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angas,_Iran
    Avil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avil
    Kenis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenis
    Latingan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latingan
    Kandis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandis_Kola
    Toskatok: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toskatok
    Kalik: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalik,_Nowshahr
    Dalasm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalasam
    ...

    Of course almost all of them sound Indo-European, especially Greek, it shows before the arrival of Iranian tribes, this region was inhabited by Greeks or some other IE people.
    Very few appear related to Greek, although i am not very knowledgeable in the Indo-Iranian languages to be able to make an accurate assessment of the place-names you shared. But don't forget that Greeks did visit, settled, and ruled the broader area for centuries after Alexander's expedition, specifically under the Seleucid diadochical dynasty. The same with many other regions. My initial comment mostly had to do with the Bronze Age though, not the Hellenistic period under which we know there was heavy Greek influence all over the East. You would be surprised to know how much Greek influence there was under the Bactrian and Indo-Greek kingdoms for example, or even subsequent kingdoms that were not under total Greek leadership.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Very few appear related to Greek, although i am not very knowledgeable in the Indo-Iranian languages to be able to make an accurate assessment of the place-names you shared. But don't forget that Greeks did visit, settled, and ruled the broader area for centuries after Alexander's expedition, specifically under the Seleucid diadochical dynasty. The same with many other regions. My initial comment mostly had to do with the Bronze Age though, not the Hellenistic period under which we know there was heavy Greek influence all over the East. You would be surprised to know how much Greek influence there was under the Bactrian and Indo-Greek kingdoms for example, or even subsequent kingdoms that were not under total Greek leadership.
    As you said just a few ones relate to Greek, that I think you mean Mycenaean or another archaic Greek language, so they couldn't be from the Hellenistic period, I just said they sound Greek, for example Kandalos was the Paeonian god of war, we just know Paeonians were an IE people who lived in north of Greece and were allies of Trojans in the Iliad, some say they were Anatolian, some other ones say they were Illyrian or Thracian, Sarus was also the name of an ancient river in the south of Anatolia, Angil probably relates Mycenaean Greek angelos "messenger, angel" which itself seems to be a loanword from Semitic,...

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As you said just a few ones relate to Greek, that I think you mean Mycenaean or another archaic Greek language, so they couldn't be from the Hellenistic period, I just said they sound Greek, for example Kandalos was the Paeonian god of war, we just know Paeonians were an IE people who lived in north of Greece and were allies of Trojans in the Iliad, some say they were Anatolian, some other ones say they were Illyrian or Thracian, Sarus was also the name of an ancient river in the south of Anatolia, Angil probably relates Mycenaean Greek angelos "messenger, angel" which itself seems to be a loanword from Semitic,...
    No, i never claimed they are related to Mycenaean Greek or that they are related to Greek altogether, i wrote that they appear related as a result of assessing some of the words' suffixes/endings. All these words can have actual etymologies in the Indo-Iranian languages, therefore i am not really the one to tell you they can actually be traced to Greeks or not, since i don't know much about the Indo-Iranian languages. I just draw your attention towards the fact that Greeks' first historical appearance in the region of Iran, was during and after Alexander's conquest. Therefore, if there is any actual influence, then this can only be during the Hellenistic Age. There were also some Ionian Greeks that were displaced by the Persians after some riots/revolutions, and placed all the way to Bactria. Therefore, when Alexander's Greeks reached Bactria they were surprised to find already established many Greek cities in the region. But even this was during the Classical period.

    Let me just comment on "Angil". First of all, "άγγελος/angelos" can be found both in the ancient and modern Greek dialects, and it means messenger and angel. We can even find the word in the Homeric Epics, This is absolutely no loanword from Semitic. Semitic languages have different words to describe an angel or messenger. Furthermore, the Mycenaean version of the word is "a-ke-ro".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    No, i never claimed they are related to Mycenaean Greek or that they are related to Greek altogether, i wrote that they appear related as a result of assessing some of the words' suffixes/endings. All these words can have actual etymologies in the Indo-Iranian languages, therefore i am not really the one to tell you they can actually be traced to Greeks or not, since i don't know much about the Indo-Iranian languages. I just draw your attention towards the fact that Greeks' first historical appearance in the region of Iran, was during and after Alexander's conquest. Therefore, if there is any actual influence, then this can only be during the Hellenistic Age. There were also some Ionian Greeks that were displaced by the Persians after some riots/revolutions, and placed all the way to Bactria. Therefore, when Alexander's Greeks reached Bactria they were surprised to find already established many Greek cities in the region. But even this was during the Classical period.

    Let me just comment on "Angil". First of all, "άγγελος/angelos" can be found both in the ancient and modern Greek dialects, and it means messenger and angel. We can even find the word in the Homeric Epics, This is absolutely no loanword from Semitic. Semitic languages have different words to describe an angel or messenger. Furthermore, the Mycenaean version of the word is "a-ke-ro".
    Some of these names can be found in the ancient Sumero-Akkadian, Hurro-Urartian or Elamite sources from 2nd and 3rd millennium BC, of course it is poosible that we find some similar words in the Indo-Iranian languages but is there any evidence which shows Indo-Iranians lived in this region before the 1st millennium BC?
    If Mycenaeans migrated from north of Iran/Caucasus to Greece in the 2nd millennium BC we should find traces of their culture in this region, and if Mukania in the Akkadians sources was the same Mycenae, then there should be some placenames with Mycenaean origin in this land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Some of these names can be found in the ancient Sumero-Akkadian, Hurro-Urartian or Elamite sources from 2nd and 3rd millennium BC, of course it is poosible that we find some similar words in the Indo-Iranian languages but is there any evidence which shows Indo-Iranians lived in this region before the 1st millennium BC?
    If Mycenaeans migrated from north of Iran/Caucasus to Greece in the 2nd millennium BC we should find traces of their culture in this region, and if Mukania in the Akkadians sources was the same Mycenae, then there should be some placenames with Mycenaean origin in this land.
    First of all, you assume these are all IE names, when in fact could very well be pre-IE in origin, and therefore widespread as a result of non-IE people, if we even assume there is any common origin. After all, at least for "Mycenae" it has been one of the more prevalent hypotheses in regards to its official etymology, namely that of being pre-Greek. More about the pre-Greek substrate here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Greek_substrate. By the way, this also falls in line with the genetic findings that proved that both Mycenaeans and Minoans largely derived their ancestry from earlier Neolithic populations, and were not simply new Bronze Age plantations in the region.

    Second, Mycenaeans, namely Achaeans/Danaans/Argives, or in the Archaic/Classical eras Aeolians/Achaeans/Ionians were just a part of the proto-Greeks (along with the Dorians that were not Mycenaean) that first settled the region of northwestern Greece sometime between 3,000-2,200 BCE. They certainly didn't first come in the 2nd millennium BCE.


    Then between 2,200-1,900 BCE the proto-Mycenaean tribe of the Minyans began its descent into central and southern Greece, as their Minyan ware attests,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minyan_ware.

    Mycenaeans or any Greek tribe didn't migrate from north Iran. North Iran is totally nonexistent in Greek mythology. If there is any cultural similarity (which again i cannot really assess, since i am not really familiar with the region you refer to), then this can be as a result of common influence from some Transcaucasian/Eastern-Anatolian culture or cultures, such as the Kura-Araxes culture (3,600-2,300 BCE) which is largely thought of being a precursor to Anatolian IEs, along with some early Balkan people,

    and the Hurrians (2,300-1,000 BCE) which are largely thought of being very close to the formation of Minoans per the very interesting linguistic research of Dr. Peter G. van Soesbergen,
    https://minoanscript.nl/. Even their alternative Hurrian ethnonym "Khurrites" appears identical to the Greek Κουρήτες/Kourites, legendary inhabitants of Crete and Phrygia. Even the English translation of the word gives it as Cretans, https://translate.google.gr/#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto&tl=en&text=%CE%9A% CE%BF%CF%85%CF%81%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%82. Hurrians were not Semites by the way, but related to the Northeast Caucasian people such as the Chechen and Ingush people, which top everyone in the world in terms of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a concentration, 57% and 88.8% respectively.

    The earlier ancestors of Hurrians could have also been the source of the early CHG autosomal component that was found in both the Mycenaean and Minoan genetic samples.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    What we read about Mazandaran (Mazania/Mycenae) in Avesta and Shahnameh can be related to Indo-Iranian migration to Iran, Mazandaran was actually the main land in Iran where enemies of Aryans (Indo-Iranians) lived, there were several wars between Aryans and people of Mazandaran and in almost all of them, Aryans were deafeated, so they called Mazandaran as the land of demons and giants. But it seems in the 2nd millennium BC Mycenaeans finally had to migrate to the west.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    What we read about Mazandaran (Mazania/Mycenae) in Avesta and Shahnameh can be related to Indo-Iranian migration to Iran, Mazandaran was actually the main land in Iran where enemies of Aryans (Indo-Iranians) lived, there were several wars between Aryans and people of Mazandaran and in almost all of them, Aryans were deafeated, so they called Mazandaran as the land of demons and giants. But it seems in the 2nd millennium BC Mycenaeans finally had to migrate to the west.
    If that's true, then it further gives merit to what i have written above about a pre-IE commonality. Assuming the words are indeed related after all. Again, Achaeans/Danaans/Argives (in other words what we have contemporarily named Mycenaeans), had nothing to do with north Iran. They were IE tribes that originally came to the Greek peninsula either from southern Caucasus or northern Caucasus, during the beginning of the 3rd millennium BCE, and eventually merged with other pre-Greek people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios
    If that's true, then it further gives merit to what i have written above about a pre-IE commonality. Assuming the words are indeed related after all. Again, Achaeans/Danaans/Argives (in other words what we have contemporarily named Mycenaeans), had nothing to do with north Iran. They were IE tribes that originally came to the Greek peninsula either from southern Caucasus or northern Caucasus, during the beginning of the 3rd millennium BCE, and eventually merged with other pre-Greek people.
    Caucasus has been always the land of Caucasian people, not Indo-Europeans, it is believed that the original Caucasian language was divided into North Caucasian and South Caucasian in the 4th millenium BC, map of Caucasian languages:



    It is certainly possible that some Caucasians migrated to the north of Iran and adopted an Indo-European culture, as you read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People...us#cite_note-8 "Based on genetic studies the Gilaki and Mazanderani ethnic groups in northern Iran (near the Caspian Sea) have been proven to be genetically similar to Armenians, Gerogians and Azeris. This indicates that the Gilaki and Mazanderani ethnic groups are people that immigrated from the Caucasus region to what is now northern Iran.[8]"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Caucasus has been always the land of Caucasian people, not Indo-Europeans, it is believed that the original Caucasian language was divided into North Caucasian and South Caucasian in the 4th millenium BC, map of Caucasian languages:



    It is certainly possible that some Caucasians migrated to the north of Iran and adopted an Indo-European culture, as you read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People...us#cite_note-8 "Based on genetic studies the Gilaki and Mazanderani ethnic groups in northern Iran (near the Caspian Sea) have been proven to be genetically similar to Armenians, Gerogians and Azeris. This indicates that the Gilaki and Mazanderani ethnic groups are people that immigrated from the Caucasus region to what is now northern Iran.[8]"
    So this means j-L283 is non proto indo european originally?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    First of all, you assume these are all IE names, when in fact could very well be pre-IE in origin, and therefore widespread as a result of non-IE people, if we even assume there is any common origin. After all, at least for "Mycenae" it has been one of the more prevalent hypotheses in regards to its official etymology, namely that of being pre-Greek. More about the pre-Greek substrate here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Greek_substrate. By the way, this also falls in line with the genetic findings that proved that both Mycenaeans and Minoans largely derived their ancestry from earlier Neolithic populations, and were not simply new Bronze Age plantations in the region.

    Second, Mycenaeans, namely Achaeans/Danaans/Argives, or in the Archaic/Classical eras Aeolians/Achaeans/Ionians were just a part of the proto-Greeks (along with the Dorians that were not Mycenaean) that first settled the region of northwestern Greece sometime between 3,000-2,200 BCE. They certainly didn't first come in the 2nd millennium BCE.


    Then between 2,200-1,900 BCE the proto-Mycenaean tribe of the Minyans began its descent into central and southern Greece, as their Minyan ware attests,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minyan_ware.

    Mycenaeans or any Greek tribe didn't migrate from north Iran. North Iran is totally nonexistent in Greek mythology. If there is any cultural similarity (which again i cannot really assess, since i am not really familiar with the region you refer to), then this can be as a result of common influence from some Transcaucasian/Eastern-Anatolian culture or cultures, such as the Kura-Araxes culture (3,600-2,300 BCE) which is largely thought of being a precursor to Anatolian IEs, along with some early Balkan people,

    and the Hurrians (2,300-1,000 BCE) which are largely thought of being very close to the formation of Minoans per the very interesting linguistic research of Dr. Peter G. van Soesbergen,
    https://minoanscript.nl/. Even their alternative Hurrian ethnonym "Khurrites" appears identical to the Greek Κουρήτες/Kourites, legendary inhabitants of Crete and Phrygia. Even the English translation of the word gives it as Cretans, https://translate.google.gr/#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto&tl=en&text=%CE%9A% CE%BF%CF%85%CF%81%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%82. Hurrians were not Semites by the way, but related to the Northeast Caucasian people such as the Chechen and Ingush people, which top everyone in the world in terms of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a concentration, 57% and 88.8% respectively.

    The earlier ancestors of Hurrians could have also been the source of the early CHG autosomal component that was found in both the Mycenaean and Minoan genetic samples.
    Original minoans were from neighboring areas like the levant and north africa

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    So this means j-L283 is non proto indo european originally?
    According to Eupedia: J2b2-L283: from Neolithic Iran to the Indo-Europeans "The oldest known J2b sample comes from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic site of Tepe Abdul Hosein in western Iran, dating from approximately 10,000 years ago." So it is relates to proto-Indo-European. "J2b2 is found throughout Europe, in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, in Central Asia and in South Asia, particularly in India."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Caucasus has been always the land of Caucasian people, not Indo-Europeans, it is believed that the original Caucasian language was divided into North Caucasian and South Caucasian in the 4th millenium BC, map of Caucasian languages:

    It is certainly possible that some Caucasians migrated to the north of Iran and adopted an Indo-European culture, as you read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People...us#cite_note-8 "Based on genetic studies the Gilaki and Mazanderani ethnic groups in northern Iran (near the Caspian Sea) have been proven to be genetically similar to Armenians, Gerogians and Azeris. This indicates that the Gilaki and Mazanderani ethnic groups are people that immigrated from the Caucasus region to what is now northern Iran.[8]"

    ahhh...Balkar ...............where i was firstly placed ever, by ftdna and dnatribes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Caucasus has been always the land of Caucasian people, not Indo-Europeans, it is believed that the original Caucasian language was divided into North Caucasian and South Caucasian in the 4th millenium BC, map of Caucasian languages:



    It is certainly possible that some Caucasians migrated to the north of Iran and adopted an Indo-European culture, as you read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People...us#cite_note-8 "Based on genetic studies the Gilaki and Mazanderani ethnic groups in northern Iran (near the Caspian Sea) have been proven to be genetically similar to Armenians, Gerogians and Azeris. This indicates that the Gilaki and Mazanderani ethnic groups are people that immigrated from the Caucasus region to what is now northern Iran.[8]"
    Caucasus has been a heavy salad of different people throughout history, not just what we term today North Caucasians and Kartvelians. First of all, it is known that even them originally came from further South sometime during the Chalcolithic Age (around 4000 BCE as you also write, and maybe a few centuries earlier). The proto-Indo-European formation began at least 1000 years earlier, therefore no, you cannot dismiss Caucasus and its certain relation to Indo-Europeans, especially when it has been proven that the CHG autosomal component has been found throughout all of the Indo-European peoples, and proto-Indo-Europeans such as the Khvalynsks and Yamnayans were comprised of approximately 50% from it.

    Second, who told you there are or were no Indo-Europeans in the Caucasus? We have Armenians, Ossetians, Russians, and Greeks living there. As for Armenians and Ossetians (who are settled at the heart of the Caucasus) specifically, they are considered indigenous. PIEs Khvalynsks and Yamnayans were also living in the north Caucasus from approximately 5,200 BCE. Also, don't forget the big elephant in the room who is totally ignored, the Transcaucasian Shulaveri-Shomu culture from approximately 6,000 BCE, which i am almost certain based on what i know that they could very well be pre-PIEs.

    As for your last comment, i agree. It’s exactly what i wrote earlier (don’t know whether you read it since it was published a couple of seconds before you published your comment). The one that i wrote about the probable common influence from Transcaucasian/Eastern-Anatolian cultures such as the Kura-Araxes and Hurrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Original minoans were from neighboring areas like the levant and north africa
    No they weren't. I am really stunned that people, who have not even bothered to read the first paragraph of the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/) genetic study, come under a thread that is focused on it and comment unsubstantiated nonsense. Let me help you with the distillate quote of the aforementioned study, which i have also shared a few comments back, "We show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations like those of the Caucasus and Iran. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia, introduced via a proximal source related to either the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe or Armenia.". No Levant or North Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    No they weren't. I am really stunned that people, who have not even bothered to read the first paragraph of the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/) genetic study, come under a thread that is focused on it and comment unsubstantiated nonsense. Let me help you with the distillate quote of the aforementioned study, which i have also shared a few comments back, "We show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations like those of the Caucasus and Iran. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia, introduced via a proximal source related to either the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe or Armenia.". No Levant or North Africa.
    Clearly he's been held in a bunker somewhere for the last five years with no access to scientific publications.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    [FONT=times new roman]Mycenaeans or any Greek tribe didn't migrate from north Iran. North Iran is totally nonexistent in Greek mythology.
    I think you are wrong, more than 2,000 years ago Strabo says about the people who lived in the north of Iran (Mazandaran): http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/11G*.html "They say that some of the Parrhasii took up their abode with the Anariacae, who, they say, are now called Parsii; and that the Aenianes built a walled city in the Vitian territory, which, they say, is called Aeniana; and that Greek armour, brazen vessels, and burial-places are to be seen there."
    Parrhasii seems to be the same Parhasi (also called Marhasi, Barhasi, Warhasi) which has been mentioned as a major land in Iran from at least the 3rd millennium BC in Sumero-Akkadian sources, names of Parrhasi kings certainly sound Indo-European, for example Arwilukpi means "king of the free people", compare Hittite Arawa "free, noble", Indo-Iranian Arya "noble" and Sanskrit lok "people", lokapa "king, world-protector".
    Parrhasii can be comapred to Greek Parrhasia and Parrhasius: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrha...son_of_Lycaon) "Parrhasius was in Greek mythology the son of Lycaon or of Zeus. He was an Arcadian hero, and his son Arcas had the region named after him.[1] He is said to have founded the Arcadian city of Parrhasia."
    Aeniana can be also compared to Greek Aeniania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainis "Aeniania, was a region of ancient Greece located near Lamia in modern Central Greece, roughly corresponding to the upper Valley of Spercheios. The region takes its name from the tribe of the Ainianians, who dwelt in the area."
    About Parsii, we know Persians still call themselves Parsi, according to Herodotus, 2,500 years ago Xerxes knew the relation between the name of Persians and Perses/Perseus, the legendary founder of Mycenae. Ancient Akkadian sources also talk about Parsua in the northwest of Iran, the name of this land also related to Greek/Persian words. Of course Xerxes himself knew that the Greek name is the original one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I think you are wrong, more than 2,000 years ago Strabo says about the people who lived in the north of Iran (Mazandaran): http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/11G*.html "They say that some of the Parrhasii took up their abode with the Anariacae, who, they say, are now called Parsii; and that the Aenianes built a walled city in the Vitian territory, which, they say, is called Aeniana; and that Greek armour, brazen vessels, and burial-places are to be seen there."
    Parrhasii seems to be the same Parhasi (also called Marhasi, Barhasi, Warhasi) which has been mentioned as a major land in Iran from at least the 3rd millennium BC in Sumero-Akkadian sources, names of Parrhasi kings certainly sound Indo-European, for example Arwilukpi means "king of the free people", compare Hittite Arawa "free, noble", Indo-Iranian Arya "noble" and Sanskrit lok "people", lokapa "king, world-protector".
    Parrhasii can be comapred to Greek Parrhasia and Parrhasius: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrha...son_of_Lycaon) "Parrhasius was in Greek mythology the son of Lycaon or of Zeus. He was an Arcadian hero, and his son Arcas had the region named after him.[1] He is said to have founded the Arcadian city of Parrhasia."
    Aeniana can be also compared to Greek Aeniania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainis "Aeniania, was a region of ancient Greece located near Lamia in modern Central Greece, roughly corresponding to the upper Valley of Spercheios. The region takes its name from the tribe of the Ainianians, who dwelt in the area."
    About Parsii, we know Persians still call themselves Parsi, according to Herodotus, 2,500 years ago Xerxes knew the relation between the name of Persians and Perses/Perseus, the legendary founder of Mycenae. Ancient Akkadian sources also talk about Parsua in the northwest of Iran, the name of this land also related to Greek/Persian words. Of course Xerxes himself knew that the Greek name is the original one.
    I am not wrong mate. Strabo wrote his "Geography" approximately between 7 BCE and 24 CE. He is obviously referring to accounts of Greek armour, brazen vessels, and burial-places of Greeks, which again i write, had visited, settled/colonized, and ruled the broader region for centuries after Alexander's expedition, specifically under the Seleucid diadochical dynasty, namely between 305-63 BCE. This is common knowledge. There is nothing strange or out of place about what Strabo describes.

    Furthermore, i am already aware of all these toponymes that you write, such as the city of Parrhasia in Arcadia, Aeniania in Phthiotis, etc.. If not common Indo-European onomatological heritage, then it is most likely that these names originated with the advent of the Greeks there, who came and colonized from all over Greece after Alexander's conquest.

    Last, as for the names Perseus and Parsi, it only attests a common Indo-European origin. Simply go read the related IE vastness that is associated with the "per" root word,
    https://ahdictionary.com/word/indoeurop.html. Xerxes did know the relation between the two words, and he tried to use it for his own benefit by trying to bribe the Argives against the rest of the Greek opponent coalition, but the Argives were no fools and didn't fall for it. These are only related IE words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I am not wrong mate. Strabo wrote his "Geography" approximately between 7 BCE and 24 CE. He is obviously referring to accounts of Greek armour, brazen vessels, and burial-places of Greeks, which again i write, had visited, settled/colonized, and ruled the broader region for centuries after Alexander's expedition, specifically under the Seleucid diadochical dynasty, namely between 305-63 BCE. This is common knowledge. There is nothing strange or out of place about what Strabo describes.

    Furthermore, i am already aware of all these toponymes that you write, such as the city of Parrhasia in Arcadia, Aeniania in Phthiotis, etc.. If not common Indo-European onomatological heritage, then it is most likely that these names originated with the advent of the Greeks there, who came and colonized from all over Greece after Alexander's conquest.

    Last, as for the names Perseus and Parsi, it only attests a common Indo-European origin. Simply go read the related IE vastness that is associated with the "per" root word,
    https://ahdictionary.com/word/indoeurop.html. Xerxes did know the relation between the two words, and he tried to use it for his own benefit by trying to bribe the Argives against the rest of the Greek opponent coalition, but the Argives were no fools and didn't fall for it. These are only related IE words.
    As I said these names existed in Iran from at least the 3rd millennium BC, so they couldn't be related to Alexander's conquest.
    I believe a Greek culture existed in the north of Iran before arrival of Cimmerians (Persian Aryans) in 700 BC, the names of some Greek rulers in the northwest of Iran have been mentioned in ancient Greek sources too, for example Dosanes, king of Sparda, has been mentioned as Hercules of India: http://www.constellationsofwords.com.../Hercules.html Dosanes had a big role in the formation of Median kingdom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    No they weren't. I am really stunned that people, who have not even bothered to read the first paragraph of the "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/) genetic study, come under a thread that is focused on it and comment unsubstantiated nonsense. Let me help you with the distillate quote of the aforementioned study, which i have also shared a few comments back, "We show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations like those of the Caucasus and Iran. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia, introduced via a proximal source related to either the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe or Armenia.". No Levant or North Africa.
    Well i guess thats not too surprising than.
    Horodotous confirmed this already


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    I think it is better that I use the term "proto-Greek" instead of "Greek" about the ancient culture which existed in the north of Iran, Greek culture is a culture which was found in Greece, there could be a huge difference between this culture and proto-Greek culture in the north of Iran. Even languages were very different too, for example the proto-Greek word for "cow" was gʷous which is almost the same as proto-IE word but in Ancient Greek it was boûs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As I said these names existed in Iran from at least the 3rd millennium BC, so they couldn't be related to Alexander's conquest.
    I believe a Greek culture existed in the north of Iran before arrival of Cimmerians (Persian Aryans) in 700 BC, the names of some Greek rulers in the northwest of Iran have been mentioned in ancient Greek sources too, for example Dosanes, king of Sparda, has been mentioned as Hercules of India: http://www.constellationsofwords.com.../Hercules.html Dosanes had a big role in the formation of Median kingdom.
    You write, "As I said these names existed in Iran from at least the 3rd millennium BC, so they couldn't be related to Alexander's conquest.".
    That's why i have written that the commonalities either stem from a common Indo-European onomatological heritage, which can cover a period of millennia earlier, or as a result of the colonization from all over Greece after Alexander's conquest. I am not just writing in response to the ones you have shared but in general.

    You write, "
    I believe a Greek culture existed in the north of Iran before arrival of Cimmerians (Persian Aryans) in 700 BC".
    It doesn't have to be a Greek culture to find similarities. Again, Indo-European tribes were living in the region of at least Transcaucasia, from before 700 BCE. In the Classical period for example, Herodotus gives us many distinct inhabitants of Transcaucasia. Like Armenians, Alarodians, Chaldaioi, Kolchoi, Makrones, Mares, Moschoi, Mossynoikoi, Saspeires, Tibarenoi (Tabali in Persian). Similarly, in Xenophon’s "Anabasis", we read among the tribes mentioned by Herodotus, Xenophon also introducing the Chalybes, Drilae, Carduchi and Taochi. This region was very heavily mixed, and i even personally recognize some tribes with IE derived names. Furthermore, Bronze Age IEs can be found in the Hittites, Mitanni, and second wave of the Hyksos in Egypt, albeit as ruling minorities in the two last ones. Therefore it's not strange to see early commonalities in Iran, assuming they are not non-IE.

    You write, "
    the names of some Greek rulers in the northwest of Iran have been mentioned in ancient Greek sources too, for example Dosanes, king of Sparda, has been mentioned as Hercules of India: http://www.constellationsofwords.com/Constellations/Hercules.html Dosanes had a big role in the formation of Median kingdom.".
    To tell you the truth i am not aware of any Spartan king under the name Dosanes. Where did you read this?

    Look, i am not dogmatic about what i write, i just want to draw your attention to the broader IE picture here. And by the way, as a friendly and fruitful suggestion, especially if you are looking for evidence in regards to a possible early Greek expedition to the East, i draw your attention to the survived ancient Greek Epic of "Dionysiaca" by Nonnus of Panopolis, which describes the life of Dionysus, his expedition to India, and his triumphant return to the west,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysiaca. I personally haven't really studied it, but i plan to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Well i guess thats not too surprising than.
    Horodotous confirmed this already
    I am already aware of all these mate. Furthermore, other ancient authors also list the different people that have inhabited the island of Crete. Like for example in Homer's Odyssey, we read of Heteocretans, Cydonians, Achaeans, Dorians, and Pelasgians all living on the island. Specifically, in Rhapsody/Book 19 and lines 175-177, "There is a fair and fruitful island in mid-ocean called Crete; it is thickly peopled and there are ninety cities in it: the people speak many different languages which overlap one another, for there are Achæans, brave Eteocretans, Dorians of three-fold race, and noble Pelasgi. There is a great town there, Cnossus, where Minos reigned who every nine years had a conference with Jove himself.". As a side note, Cydonians are mentioned in another passage.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    When I read Cyrus' posts, I always wonder if there is anything and anyone in Europe that didn't start in Iran or has a direct connection with Iran, having come directly from there already with their defining characteristics (I could take it more seriously if he were just proposing that the earliest stage of PIE was spoken in North Iran, but it's clearly something much more recent than that, as late as the Iron Age, and that just can't be taken seriously without severely distorting or even ignoring the scientific evidences available, with a lot of wishful thinking)​.

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