Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

PAX AUGUSTA

That was the theory until recent ( urnfield from the north in the po valley) but recent research are pointing of canegrate being older than RFSO...also cremation in northern italy is older.......see
MARCO BAIONI: 3rd millennium BC ritual and burial practice in Lombardy on academia.eu ( it refers to the civate group whose practice you can find also in Rocca di Manerba)...but there's more...... cremation in copper age Italy was also in the south ......take a look:
GIORGIA APRILE ( on academia.eu): The copper age mound necropolis in Salve Lecce Italy: radiocarbon dating result on charcoals, cremated bones and pottery
If it was present in the north and south it means we can find it very likely also in the Rinaldone group ( Salve obviously is Gaudo culture)
Schrijver is a very talented linguist... he knows what is saying and he thinks celtic languages likely from south of the alps....

The thesis I was referring to is this: you can find it online

Author : Giacomo Capuzzo
Title: Space-temporal analysis of radiocarbon evidence and associated archeological record: from Danube to Ebro rivers and from bronze to iron age
 
I find very interesting the results from Mycenes also if you consider that they can be coupled with the findings from ( to be confermed for sure) of Hittites samples that lack completely steppe ancestry. Now we cross the fingers and wait for the tests that Reich is making on neolithic and bronze age Italy. If central and southern Italy will turn out to be Mycenean ( or anatolia like) we should change the narrative as for the explanation of IEzation of Southern europe and further for much of the centum languages since celtic according to many theories is born south of the alps too ( read Schrijvers).

Reich is clearly considering that possibility as well, so we're in good hands in terms of finding out what happened, even Bell Beaker R1b might have come from Anatolia through Italy to central Europe, where it mixed with local Corded Ware to get most of it's Steppe component.
 
In North Eastern Italy (1500 BC Lake dwellers around Garda and Terramare) is older than Central Europe not in the North West. Sporadically cremation was present everywhere but the precise ritual that we see in the Bronze Age originated in the Pannonian plain.

https://youtu.be/Wd0UL9HTItk

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Canegrate culture originated north of the Alps, in the Urnfield RSFO group not vice versa. Previous popoulation practiced inhumation

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Canegrate from Urnfield RSFO group (Rhenish-Swiss group). This is a possible differentiazion with the Proto-Villanovans who could have arrived from the Middle-Danube Urnfield culture.
 
Yes, Urnfields of the Rhine region were likely Proto-Celts.

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Yes, Urnfield of the Rhine region were likely Proto-Celts.

I told you that is not true....but we are going off topic.....
 
I think that "L'Italia nell'età del bronzo e del ferro" by Bietti Sestieri is the most updated synthesis of the Italian Bronze Age Iron Age and she talk about a migration of warriors from the RSFO group.

Could you post a paper that says otherwise ? thanks.

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PAX AUGUSTA

That was the theory until recent ( urnfield from the north in the po valley) but recent research are pointing of canegrate being older than RFSO...also cremation in northern italy is older.......see
MARCO BAIONI: 3rd millennium BC ritual and burial practice in Lombardy on academia.eu ( it refers to the civate group whose practice you can find also in Rocca di Manerba)...but there's more...... cremation in copper age Italy was also in the south ......take a look:
GIORGIA APRILE ( on academia.eu): The copper age mound necropolis in Salve Lecce Italy: radiocarbon dating result on charcoals, cremated bones and pottery
If it was present in the north and south it means we can find it very likely also in the Rinaldone group ( Salve obviously is Gaudo culture)
Schrijver is a very talented linguist... he knows what is saying and he thinks celtic languages likely from south of the alps....

The thesis I was referring to is this: you can find it online

Author : Giacomo Capuzzo
Title: Space-temporal analysis of radiocarbon evidence and associated archeological record: from Danube to Ebro rivers and from bronze to iron age

As a courtesy, it's our practice here to provide links to papers etc. that we cite. That way, if people haven't read it they can familiarize or re-familiarize themselves with the details of the paper.

That's for everybody, gentlemen, ok? Thanks.
 
https://wikivividly.com/wiki/Castellieri_culture
North adriatic area had Mycenean influence and connections
Castellieri culture also "merged" with cetina culture on the Dalmatian coast
http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/castelliere_(Enciclopedia-Italiana)/


Roca, or Roca Vecchia. (archaeological site)

South Adriatic area (Salento) ;)

- The University of Salento, has produced some of the best-preserved monumental architecture of the Bronze Age (2nd millennium BC) in Southern Italy, along with the Largest set of Mycenaean pottery ever recovered west of mainland Greece. -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roca_(archaeological_site)

I Posted this info before.
 
From Mirelle David Elbiali ( academia.eu) Elementi di riflessione per una storia dei rapporti transalpini:

...Quello che viene fuori da questo corto elenco non esaustivo e che ci sono in quest'epoca più oggetti della facies Scamozzina -Monza e soprattutto canegrate nelle regioni nord-alpine che oggetti nord alpini nella Lombardia occidentale. Possiamo parlare di una vera influenza di queste culture e NON CI SONO INDICI DI UN ARRIVO MASSICCIO DI POPOLAZIONI NORD ALPINE "CELTICHE" IN QUESTO PERIODO A SUD DELLE ALPI ( sta parlando significativamente del bronzo recente ( 1400-1250 AC), come invece sostennero a loro tempo Ferrante Rittatore Vonwiller.......

Couple this with Capuzzo thesis and with the fact that the "cremation revolution" was in northern italy present since ( at least because we do not know the burial custom of lagozza) the 3500 BC ( in the pre-alpine area because on the po plain there was the single grave remedello style burial).
I do not question the importance of the pannonian plain as a foyer of urnfield but clearly the po valley was a starting point too so to explain cremation north of the alps in central-western europe there's no need to look so distant in the east when you have just the same cultural aspects just round the corner south of the alps......
 
cato

It was not sporadic and also it continued till the arrival of...christianity ( in Lombardy cremation goes from middle IV millennium till the first centuries CE).
I do not find a paper that talks about cultural traits in Viverone that seem older than tumulus culture ones. I will post it as soon as possible. So Viverone could even reinforce my point. Of course copper age funerary usages are not the same of urnfield ones. Daughter cultures are not exactly the same as the father ones. However papers I linked speak for themselves just connect the dots.

Which part of Italy are you from ?
 
etrusco

Are you aware that according to the latest ancient Dna studies there has been a big immigration from Central Europe in Northern Italy after Remedello ?

Remedello people and Otzi were most similiar to Sardinians from the interior (even the Y DNA) than modern day Lombards.

So this is in line with what most scholars says, the influences were mostly North->South (at least in the Bronze Age).

P.S. Not from the North but i have some ancestry from there [emoji4]

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etrusco

Are you aware that according to the latest ancient Dna studies there has been a big immigration from Central Europe in Northern Italy after Remedello ?

Remedello people and Otzi were most similiar to Sardinians from the interior (even the Y DNA) than modern day Lombards.

So this is in line with what most scholars says, the influences were mostly North->South (at least in the Bronze Age).

P.S. Not from the North but i have some ancestry from there [emoji4]

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Ok but we are talking about another issue we'll see what happens with the new reich papers on Italy from neolithic to bronze age.
In the nolithic and copper age there was influence from Italy to north of the alps. Now back to myceneans and minoans.
Un saluto. We italians will have plenty of time to talk on this forum since we are not playing at the world cup!
 
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Ok but we are talking about another issue we'll see what happens with the new reich papers on Italy from neolithic to bronze age.
In the nolithic and copper age there was influence from Italy to north of the alps. Now back to myceneans and minoans.
Un saluto. We italians will have plenty of time to talk on this forum since we are not playing at the world cup!:LOL:

What a strange Italian to find that amusing.

Also, another reminder. Post links to material you are citing in support of your "theories".
 
What a strange Italian to find that amusing.

Also, another reminder. Post links to material you are citing in support of your "theories".


As for the world cup maybe I just typed not the right emoticon. I do not find it amusing. We wouldn't however have won anyway.....
 

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