Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Angela]

As for the world cup maybe I just typed not the right emoticon. I do not find it amusing. We wouldn't however have won anyway.....

So they said last time. Those last two matches still live happily in my memory.

Granted, wouldn't be the same kind of squad.

Sorry to have gone off topic.

Back to the origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans.

 

[ihype02]

The Bronze Age Anatolia individual:
"This individual wasancestral for the major subclade3 P58 (J1a2b; previously designated3 J1e) and could thus bedesignated as J1a(xJ1a2b)."

Is this sample Minoan?

 

[Angela]

Why would it be Minoan when it's labeled Bronze Age Anatolian?

 

[ihype02]

Why would it be Minoan when it's labeled Bronze Age Anatolian?

I know but they have some weird names like Armenoi, so I just wanted to be sure.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I know but they have some wierd names like Armenoi, so I just want to be sure.

Armenoi is just the name of a village in Crete where the sample comes from. This name doesn't imply anything about this ancient sample. It's known as the late Bronze Age Necropolis of Armenoi in Crete.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenoi

Late Minoan III Necropolis of Armenoi

The Necropolis of Armenoi (1390-1190 BCE), situated on the NW coast of Crete, 10 km. south and above the town of Rethymnon, is the only intact necropolis that dates to this period and the preservation of the finds and the human skeletal remains is outstanding. Work at the Necropolis commenced in 1969 and continues under the direction of Dr. Yannis Tzedakis. To date two hundred and thirty-two chamber tombs of varying sizes have been revealed. The abundance and artistic excellence of the artefacts found in the tombs is extraordinary. They include in excess of eight hundred decorated vases, seven hundred undecorated and coarse vessels, and three hundred and fifty bronzes. They include thirty-four decorated larnakes (sarcophagi), two of which are polychrome. Unique finds are a stirrup jar with a Linear B inscription, a boar's tooth helmet, and a reed basket decorated with bronze nails. The tombs contained the human remains of approximately one thousand individuals. A range of biomolecular analyses (organic residue analysis and stable isotope analysis) was conducted on material from the Necropolis of Armenoi as part of a project directed by Tzedakis and Martlew which covered sixteen Bronze Age Greek sites. The results of the scientific work, in which the Necropolis of Armenoi featured prominently, were incorporated in an exhibition that was mounted in seven international museums.

We undertook biochemical analysis (collagen extraction and isotope analysis) of the sample used for DNA analysis (ARM 503) to assess its state of preservation. The bone was well preserved, with a collagen yield of 6%, and carbon and nitrogen isotope values of d13C=-19.8 ‰ and d15N= 7.4 ‰.


Sample
• Armenoi 503 (I9123, 89 I): Female adult from Tomb 160 (LM III A2, ca. 1370-1340 BCE).


Tzedakis, Y and Martlew, H. (eds.) (1999). Minoans and Mycenaeans Flavours of their Time. Kapon Editions, Athens, Greece.
Tzedakis, Y, Martlew, H. and M. Jones (eds.) (2008). Archaeology Meets Science: Biomolecular Investigations in Bronze Age Greece. Oxbow Books, Oxford, U.K.

Source: https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/nature23310-s1_0.pdf.

 

[ihype02]

"I0073 (Minoan from Lasithi)This individual was derived for mutation L26:22942897T->C (J2a1) as well as upstream mutationsM410, L559, L152 (J2a). He was ancestral for several downstream haplogroups: M322:15469740C->A (J2a1a), L560:21899860C->T (J2a1b1a), M166:21764694C->T (J2a1b2), M68:21878700A->G(J2a1c), M339:2881367T->G (J2a1e), L24:14286528G->A (J2a1h), L88.2:17595842T->C andL198:17595861A->C (J2a1i). He could thus be designated as J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1a, J2a1b2, J2a1c,J2a1e, J2a1h, J2a1i)."

Minoan I0073 belongs to M319 according to site site:
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0073/
Can you confirm if it is true or not?

 

[ihype02]

This is a list of Cypriot's Y-DNA frequencies of J2a, those two marked in blue (M319 and L210) are found in Minoans and Mycenaeans, others are not.

14 x J2a1-Z387:
13 x J2a1-M319:
12 x J2a1-Z500:
10 x J2a1-Z7700:
7 x J2a1-PF5191:
7 x J2a1-S25258:
7 x J2a2-PF5008:
6 x J2a1-L210:
4 x J2b-M241:
3 x J2a1-Z7671:
3 x J2a1-Z6065:

It would interesting to do a comparison with mainland Greeks.

 

[Angela]

There's been so much nonsense posted lately about the Mycenaeans (and, of course, Southern Italians and Sicilians) that I thought it would be helpful to post the PCA once again. Please observe that Mycenaeans are by no means Anatolia Bronze Age people. Not even the Minoans are that. They are clearly Early Anatolian farmer stock pulled toward the Caucasus. This all makes sense, of course, since they were in the area first settled by these farmers.

In terms of modern day populations, the Mycenaeans plot right on top of Sicilians. The Minoans plot pretty close to some modern Jewish groups, perhaps partly because of lots of unadmixed early Anatolian farmer ancestry. Yes, projection may distort things a bit, but he general fact is correct.

 

[davef]

I know, remember those wacky percentages from Eurogenes that had southern Italians being less Mycenaean than tuscans for gods sake? That's ridiculous. I don't see a Tuscan anywhere in that cluster (I'm not singling out tuscans, just that they were modeled as having more "Mycenaean" than sicilians and s Italians).

 

[Angela]

I know, remember those wacky percentages from Eurogenes that had southern Italians being less Mycenaean than tuscans for gods sake? That's ridiculous. I don't see a Tuscan anywhere in that cluster (I'm not singling out tuscans, just that they were modeled as having more "Mycenaean" than sicilians and s Italians).

He has his own agenda. The amusing thing is that if you read his threads, by the end the title he hopefully put forward has been proven mostly, if not completely false.

Also amusingly, Northern Italians, but even Tuscans, plot near LNBA samples, NOT Mycenaean.

Posters on other sites are even worse.

That's why one should stick with academic papers and not with models which half the time are chronologically, geographically and every other which way impossible, not to mention the sad souls who are still using gedmatch calculators based on modern samples and comparing data drawn from who knows where. When they venture into other statistical tools to do "modeling" it's absolutely clear they have no clue how to use them.

I would recommend to everyone to wait for the ancient data.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I know, remember those wacky percentages from Eurogenes that had southern Italians being less Mycenaean than tuscans for gods sake? That's ridiculous. I don't see a Tuscan anywhere in that cluster (I'm not singling out tuscans, just that they were modeled as having more "Mycenaean" than sicilians and s Italians).

Obvious agenda. Not by chance he is using a sample of people who "identifies themselves as having at least 3 out of 4 grandparents born in Tuscany" to represent Tuscans in his new toy, the Global. And obvious agenda also against Southern Italians and Sicilians.


Mycenaeans in the PCA posted by Angela are in Southern Italian/Sicilian cluster. I have included in the PCA the Tuscans, Bergamo (North Italy), Iberians, Basques, and Sardinians.

Check yourself with the PCA made by Lazaridis

 

[Angela]

Obvious agenda. Not by chance he is using a sample of people who "identifies themselves as having at least 3 out of 4 grandparents born in Tuscany" to represent Tuscans in his new toy, the Global. And obvious agenda also against Southern Italians and Sicilians.


Mycenaeans in the PCA posted by Angela are in Southern Italian/Sicilian cluster. I have included in the PCA the Tuscans, Bergamo (North Italy), Iberians, Basques, and Sardinians.

Check yourself with the PCA made by Lazaridis

The Tuscans are closest to European LNBA, as are, of course, Northern Italians. If their position is because of all the migration from Asia Minor in the first millennium, I guess those people also went to Greece and Albania since they all plot very near to each other. The Sicilians and Southern Italians are far closer to the Mycenaeans.

As I said above, the Mycenaeans look like early Anatolia Neolithic people pulled a bit toward the Caucasus. They do NOT plot with Anatolia Bronze Age or Anatolia Chalcolithic, for that matter. I don't know where people get this stuff.

 

[ihype02]

He has his own agenda. The amusing thing is that if you read his threads, by the end the title he hopefully put forward has been proven mostly, if not completely false.

Also amusingly, Northern Italians, but even Tuscans, plot near LNBA samples, NOT Mycenaean.

Posters on other sites are even worse.

That's why one should stick with academic papers and not with models which half the time are chronologically, geographically and every other which way impossible, not to mention the sad souls who are still using gedmatch calculators based on modern samples and comparing data drawn from who knows where.

I would recommend to everyone to wait for the ancient data.

For whom you guys are talking, it is hard to follow?

 

[davef]

Obvious agenda. Not by chance he is using a sample of people who "identifies themselves as having at least 3 out of 4 grandparents born in Tuscany" to represent Tuscans in his new toy, the Global. And obvious agenda also against Southern Italians and Sicilians.


Mycenaeans in the PCA posted by Angela are in Southern Italian/Sicilian cluster. I have included in the PCA the Tuscans, Bergamo (North Italy), Iberians, Basques, and Sardinians.

Check yourself with the PCA made by Lazaridis

Exactly so!

 

[ihype02]

Obvious agenda. Not by chance he is using a sample of people who "identifies themselves as having at least 3 out of 4 grandparents born in Tuscany" to represent Tuscans in his new toy, the Global. And obvious agenda also against Southern Italians and Sicilians.


Mycenaeans in the PCA posted by Angela are in Southern Italian/Sicilian cluster. I have included in the PCA the Tuscans, Bergamo (North Italy), Iberians, Basques, and Sardinians.

Check yourself with the PCA made by Lazaridis

I don't see Sicilians in this PCA?

 

[davef]

The Tuscans are closest to European LNBA, as are, of course, Northern Italians. If there position is because of all the migration from Asia Minor in the first millennium, I guess those people also went to Greece and Albania since they all plot very near to each other. The Sicilians and Southern Italians are far closer to the Mycenaeans.

As I said above, the Mycenaeans look like early Anatolia Neolithic people pulled a bit toward the Caucasus. They do NOT plot with Anatolia Bronze Age or Anatolia Chalcolithic, for that matter. I don't know where people get this stuff.

When life slows down I would still read anthrogenica bc it still has some quality, though it's on a downward spiral. What gets me is that people there tend to exaggerate how Mycenaeans score more in the Sardinian categories (west med, mediterranean on Harappa world) than Sicilians do on average when in reality, it's only a bit higher, just over five points. That's pennies. That seems to be the only difference.
Got to go, it's an hr drive from work to home and it's about to storm

 

[Angela]

When life slows down I would still read anthrogenica bc it still has some quality, though it's on a downward spiral. What gets me is that people there tend to exaggerate how Mycenaeans score more in the Sardinian categories (west med, mediterranean on Harappa world) than Sicilians do on average when in reality, it's only a bit higher, just over five points. That's pennies. That seems to be the only difference.
Got to go, it's an hr drive from work to home and it's about to storm

That five points may be down to North African influence. Any migration by the Berbers would have been male mediated, and there just isn't that much Berber yDna in Sicily and Southern influence. I would say the total autosomal influence is probably around 5-7%. Then, however, you also have to add in the more "northern" ancestry of all the Lombards from northern Italy who settled there in the Middle Ages, plus dribs and drabs from Normans, Aragonese, the French etc.

Are Sicilians and Mycenaeans the same? Of course not.

Nor do I know why they are so similar. Is it because they're descended from the same ancient people? Is it from continued gene flow from Greece? Did any admixture during the Roman or post Roman era have an impact? I don't know, although I tend to doubt the beloved "Roman slave" admixture given the death rate in the latifundia and mines and ancient "factories". We have to wait for ancient dna.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I don't see Sicilians in this PCA?

 

[ihype02]

Thank you.

 

[davef]

That five points may be down to North African influence. Any migration by the Berbers would have been male mediated, and there just isn't that much Berber yDna in Sicily and Southern influence. I would say the total autosomal influence is probably around 5-7%. Then, however, you also have to add in the more "northern" ancestry of all the Lombards from northern Italy who settled there in the Middle Ages, plus dribs and drabs from Normans, Aragonese, the French etc.

Are Sicilians and Mycenaeans the same? Of course not.

Nor do I know why they are so similar. Is it because they're descended from the same ancient people? Is it from continued gene flow from Greece? Did any admixture during the Roman or post Roman era have an impact? I don't know, although I tend to doubt the beloved "Roman slave" admixture given the death rate in the latifundia and mines and ancient "factories". We have to wait for ancient dna.

I would love to know what made them similar as well. I think I remember gedmatch giving them 85-90 percent Sicilian if I recall correctly (keep in mind I only had two coffees today and I'm dozing off as I write this. Hopefully the Dunkin line isn't too long). It's gedmatch, I know, not the be all end all.