Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[ihype02]

Crete_Armenoi (Dorian):

This person is blatantly shifted toward Central Europe and even Spain.

Dodecad K12b:
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 39.46
2 North_European 30.59
3 Caucasus 12.73
4 Southwest_Asian 12.47
5 Northwest_African 4.76

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Galicia (1000Genomes) 13.46
2 N_Italian (Dodecad) 14.29
3 Portuguese (Dodecad) 14.51
4 French (Dodecad) 14.92
5 French (HGDP) 15
6 Baleares (1000Genomes) 15.08
7 North_Italian (HGDP) 15.24
8 Extremadura (1000Genomes) 15.27
9 Castilla_Y_Leon (1000Genomes) 16.56
10 Murcia (1000Genomes) 16.65
11 Cataluna (1000Genomes) 17.17
12 Spanish (Dodecad) 17.61
13 Spaniards (Behar) 17.87
14 Canarias (1000Genomes) 18.19
15 O_Italian (Dodecad) 18.84
16 TSI30 (Metspalu) 19.08
17 Cantabria (1000Genomes) 19.2
18 Castilla_La_Mancha (1000Genomes) 19.42
19 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 20.04
20 Valencia (1000Genomes) 20.49

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.4% French (HGDP) + 17.6% Yemen_Jews (Behar) @ 7.45
2 71.6% Murcia (1000Genomes) + 28.4% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 8.11
3 80.5% French (HGDP) + 19.5% Bedouin (HGDP) @ 8.14
4 84.5% French (HGDP) + 15.5% Saudis (Behar) @ 8.2
5 77.8% Galicia (1000Genomes) + 22.2% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 8.45
6 72.7% Murcia (1000Genomes) + 27.3% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 8.5
7 74.2% Murcia (1000Genomes) + 25.8% Belorussian (Behar) @ 8.54
8 71.2% Murcia (1000Genomes) + 28.8% Polish (Dodecad) @ 8.68
9 74.8% Murcia (1000Genomes) + 25.2% Russian_B (Behar) @ 8.68
10 79.7% French (HGDP) + 20.3% Egyptans (Behar) @ 8.75
11 78.9% Galicia (1000Genomes) + 21.1% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 8.77
12 76.8% Murcia (1000Genomes) + 23.2% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 8.78
13 74.5% Murcia (1000Genomes) + 25.5% Russian (Dodecad) @ 8.79
14 80.2% Galicia (1000Genomes) + 19.8% Belorussian (Behar) @ 8.82
15 60% Murcia (1000Genomes) + 40% Hungarians (Behar) @ 8.85
16 75% Murcia (1000Genomes) + 25% Russian (HGDP) @ 8.87
17 80.6% Galicia (1000Genomes) + 19.4% Russian_B (Behar) @ 8.89
18 77.7% Galicia (1000Genomes) + 22.3% Polish (Dodecad) @ 8.93
19 76.2% Portuguese (Dodecad) + 23.8% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 8.94
20 67.8% Galicia (1000Genomes) + 32.2% Hungarians (Behar) @ 8.97


Eurogenes K15:
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 37.39
2 West_Med 26.65
3 Red_Sea 15.32
4 Baltic 12.89
5 East_Med 4.03
6 West_Asian 3.72

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Andalucia 21.19
2 Southwest_French 21.41
3 Spanish_Aragon 21.49
4 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 21.73
5 Spanish_Valencia 22.33
6 French_Basque 22.56
7 Spanish_Cantabria 22.73
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 23.5
9 Spanish_Extremadura 23.74
10 Spanish_Murcia 24.31
11 Spanish_Cataluna 25.32
12 North_Italian 25.44
13 Portuguese 25.53
14 Spanish_Galicia 26.35
15 Tuscan 27.76
16 Sardinian 30.74
17 West_Sicilian 30.84
18 French 31.06
19 Bulgarian 31.22
20 Greek 31.37

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79% French_Basque + 21% Saudi @ 17.89
2 69.5% French_Basque + 30.5% Moroccan @ 18.07
3 69.2% French_Basque + 30.8% Mozabite_Berber @ 18.24
4 70.1% French_Basque + 29.9% Tunisian @ 18.33
5 77.5% French_Basque + 22.5% Bedouin @ 18.63
6 71.9% French_Basque + 28.1% Algerian @ 18.78
7 82.2% French_Basque + 17.8% Yemenite_Jewish @ 19.06
8 78.6% French_Basque + 21.4% Egyptian @ 19.11
9 78.8% French_Basque + 21.2% Syrian @ 19.38
10 79.9% French_Basque + 20.1% Samaritan @ 19.44
11 80.2% French_Basque + 19.8% Palestinian @ 19.53
12 80% French_Basque + 20% Jordanian @ 19.54
13 75.4% French_Basque + 24.6% Tunisian_Jewish @ 19.54
14 73.2% French_Basque + 26.8% Sephardic_Jewish @ 19.56
15 78.6% French_Basque + 21.4% Cyprian @ 19.73
16 74.1% French_Basque + 25.9% Algerian_Jewish @ 19.74
17 80% French_Basque + 20% Lebanese_Muslim @ 19.8
18 81.7% French_Basque + 18.3% Lebanese_Christian @ 19.82
19 78.2% Southwest_French + 21.8% Mozabite_Berber @ 19.84
20 71.6% French_Basque + 28.4% East_Sicilian @ 19.85


MDLP K23:
# Population Percent
1 European_Early_Farmers 62.78
2 Caucasian 28.35
3 Subsaharian 3.90
4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 3.27
5 South_Indian 1.70


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sardinian_ @ 12.913033
2 French_South_ @ 25.509447
3 Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS_ @ 25.616949
4 Spanish_Andalucia_IBS_ @ 25.803423
5 Spanish_Valencia_IBS_ @ 25.818460
6 Spanish_Aragon_IBS_ @ 25.851233
7 Spanish_Cantabria_IBS_ @ 26.338671
8 Spanish_Murcia_IBS_ @ 27.284054
9 Spanish_Pais_Vasco_IBS_ @ 27.653255
10 Spanish_Baleares_IBS_ @ 28.700075
11 Spanish_Cataluna_IBS_ @ 28.804966
12 Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ @ 29.473316
13 Spaniard_ @ 29.611275
14 Spanish_Extremadura_IBS_ @ 29.777987
15 Basque_Spanish_ @ 30.079611
16 Spanish_Galicia_IBS_ @ 30.143637
17 Italian_Bergamo_ @ 30.658312
18 Basque_French_ @ 31.080996
19 Portugese_ @ 33.509251
20 Italian_Piedmont_ @ 33.590324

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Sardinian_ +50% Sardinian_ @ 12.913033


PuntDNA-L K13:
# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 39.86
2 SW_Europe 34.41
3 SW_Asia 20.58
4 West_Asia 5.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French 15.97
2 Bosnian 16.11
3 Croatian 16.13
4 Serbian 16.47
5 Moldavian 16.74
6 Belgian 16.84
7 Montenegrin 16.92
8 Slovene 16.94
9 Spaniard 17.01
10 Macedonian 17.11
11 Romanian 17.15
12 Hungarian 17.23
13 Slovak 18.12
14 Bulgarian 18.17
15 German_South 18.35
16 English 18.61
17 Utahn_European 19.12
18 Italian_Bergamo 19.15
19 Orcadian 20.02
20 Italian_Tuscan 20.07

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.7% Belgian + 20.3% Bedouin @ 9.35
2 76.9% Utahn_European + 23.1% Bedouin @ 9.64
3 63.1% Swedish + 36.9% Saharawi @ 9.66
4 67.6% German_North + 32.4% Saharawi @ 9.88
5 61.9% Belarusian + 38.1% Saharawi @ 9.96
6 66.1% Ukrainian + 33.9% Saharawi @ 10.07
7 81.6% French + 18.4% Bedouin @ 10.08
8 64.1% Norwegian + 35.9% Saharawi @ 10.11
9 73.5% Slovene + 26.5% Saharawi @ 10.22
10 63.4% Swedish + 36.6% Mozabite @ 10.22
11 62.2% Belarusian + 37.8% Mozabite @ 10.24
12 69.9% Utahn_European + 30.1% Saharawi @ 10.27
13 78% English + 22% Bedouin @ 10.28
14 79.4% Belgian + 20.6% Saudi @ 10.29
15 58.2% Polish + 41.8% Saharawi @ 10.29
16 71.5% Slovak + 28.5% Saharawi @ 10.3
17 58.4% Polish + 41.6% Mozabite @ 10.4
18 76.3% Utahn_European + 23.7% Saudi @ 10.45
19 68.1% German_North + 31.9% Mozabite @ 10.5
20 76.3% Orcadian + 23.7% Bedouin @ 10.5


Near East Neolithic K13:
# Population Percent
1 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 36.93
2 EHG 31.58
3 CHG_EEF 28.13
4 SHG_WHG 3.35

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Europe_LNBA 23.89
2 Bulgarian 30.45
3 Albanian 30.8
4 French 31.57
5 Romanian 31.98
6 Steppe_MLBA 32.7
7 Sardinian 32.91
8 Greek 33.38
9 Croatian 33.68
10 Hungarian 34.49
11 Sicilian 34.57
12 English 34.84
13 Czech 36.58
14 Scottish 37.11
15 Norwegian 37.34
16 Ukrainian 37.36
17 Stuttgart 37.59
18 Steppe_IA 37.6
19 Icelandic 37.75
20 Italian_South 37.97

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.3% Steppe_MLBA + 32.7% Anatolia_N @ 7.14
2 64.1% Steppe_MLBA + 35.9% Europe_EN @ 8.14
3 75.2% Europe_LNBA + 24.8% Anatolia_N @ 10.51
4 53.9% Steppe_MLBA + 46.1% Stuttgart @ 10.89
5 71.1% Sardinian + 28.9% EHG @ 11.54
6 70.3% Sardinian + 29.7% Steppe_EMBA @ 11.86
7 73% Europe_LNBA + 27% Europe_EN @ 12
8 68.1% Stuttgart + 31.9% EHG @ 12.2
9 67.1% Stuttgart + 32.9% Steppe_EMBA @ 12.24
10 65.2% Stuttgart + 34.8% Steppe_Eneolithic @ 13.23
11 65.3% Europe_LNBA + 34.7% Anatolia_ChL @ 13.82
12 64.7% Europe_LNBA + 35.3% Stuttgart @ 14.55
13 69% Sardinian + 31% Steppe_Eneolithic @ 14.79
14 62.4% Steppe_MLBA + 37.6% Europe_MNChL @ 14.84
15 60.9% Stuttgart + 39.1% MA1 @ 16.28
16 55.7% Steppe_MLBA + 44.3% Anatolia_ChL @ 16.6
17 73.8% Europe_LNBA + 26.2% Europe_MNChL @ 16.91
18 65.3% Sardinian + 34.7% MA1 @ 17.68
19 51.5% Norwegian + 48.5% Anatolia_ChL @ 17.89
20 51.1% Icelandic + 48.9% Anatolia_ChL @ 18.12

 

[Pax Augusta]

Crete_Armenoi (Dorian):

This person is blatantly shifted toward Central Europe and even Spain.

We don't know if Crete_Armenoi was Dorian, and Crete Armenoi was a female.

She is the most northen-shifted indeed in comparison to the Mycenaean samples, but all the first results on Gedmatch you've posted are at big distances: @13.46, @21.19, @ 12.913033, @23.89

I think you're using the old kit, try the new one: Z401678

 

[ihype02]

I only copied these. Idk how accurate it is.
It could be a Dorian due the date 1200BC.

Other samples had similar distances, 10.3 at most.

 

[ihype02]

Crete_Armenoi is very unreliable though. We have to wait.

 

[ihype02]

puntDNAL K10 Ancient Oracle

Kit M293012

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 WHG 39.01
2 CHG 32.19
3 ENF 27.62
4 Oceanian 1.18

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 7.33
2 Croatian 8.54
3 Bulgarian 8.6
4 Irish 9.81
5 German_South 10.46
6 Utahn_white 10.51
7 English_South 11.88
8 German_North 11.94
9 French 12.58
10 Czech 13.54
11 Ukrainian 14.66
12 Scottish_West 14.83
13 Albanian 14.84
14 Greek 14.84
15 Italian_North 15.62
16 Norwegian 17.32
17 Tuscan 17.59
18 Mordovian 18.09
19 Icelandic 18.53
20 Italian_South 18.97

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76.2% German_North + 23.8% Georgian @ 1.59
2 76.3% English_South + 23.7% Georgian @ 1.66
3 79.7% Irish + 20.3% Georgian @ 1.85
4 73.9% Czech + 26.1% Georgian @ 1.86
5 78.9% Utahn_white + 21.1% Abkhasian @ 1.88
6 71.2% Utahn_white + 28.8% Kumyk @ 1.91
7 84.3% Hungarian + 15.7% Georgian @ 1.99
8 72.1% Scottish_West + 27.9% Georgian @ 2
9 78.6% Utahn_white + 21.4% Georgian @ 2
10 73.9% German_South + 26.1% Lezgin @ 2.02
11 76.8% English_South + 23.2% Abkhasian @ 2.04
12 67.3% Icelandic + 32.7% Georgian @ 2.18
13 84.7% Hungarian + 15.3% Abkhasian @ 2.21
14 80.2% Irish + 19.8% Abkhasian @ 2.22
15 77.9% Croatian + 22.1% Lezgin @ 2.29
16 76.8% German_North + 23.2% Abkhasian @ 2.36
17 66.5% Norwegian + 33.5% Turkish_Trabzon @ 2.37
18 74.5% German_North + 25.5% Turkish_Trabzon @ 2.38
19 63.1% Lithuanian + 36.9% Iraqi_Jew @ 2.4
20 78.7% Hungarian + 21.3% Kumyk @ 2.43



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Icelandic +50% Kumyk @ 5.517088


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% German_North +25% English_South +25% Georgian @ 1.368122


Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Norwegian + German_North + German_South + Georgian @ 1.032991
2 Icelandic + German_North + German_South + Georgian @ 1.154692
3 Norwegian + Utahn_white + Utahn_white + Georgian @ 1.155867
4 Icelandic + German_North + Croatian + Georgian @ 1.169486
5 Scottish_West + German_North + Utahn_white + Georgian @ 1.192288
6 Lithuanian + German_South + French + Georgian @ 1.223833
7 Lithuanian + German_North + Italian_North + Georgian @ 1.285304
8 Czech + German_North + Utahn_white + Georgian @ 1.288352
9 Norwegian + German_North + Croatian + Georgian @ 1.305203
10 Norwegian + German_North + Utahn_white + Georgian @ 1.317414
11 Lithuanian + Croatian + French + Georgian @ 1.325708
12 Czech + German_North + English_South + Georgian @ 1.325785
13 Scottish_West + German_North + German_South + Georgian @ 1.329037
14 Icelandic + Utahn_white + Utahn_white + Georgian @ 1.335535
15 Icelandic + German_North + Utahn_white + Georgian @ 1.338034
16 Norwegian + English_South + German_South + Georgian @ 1.349703
17 Lithuanian + Utahn_white + French + Georgian @ 1.355967
18 Lithuanian + Scottish_West + Italian_North + Georgian @ 1.360463
19 Norwegian + English_South + Utahn_white + Georgian @ 1.361332
20 German_North + German_North + English_South + Georgian @ 1.368122

 

[Angela]

I don't know why people continue to try to make points using a partial genome. What's the point?

 

[ihype02]

It would be much better to wait for professional PCA works. I am, like, extremly curious to learn how Athenians and Spartans were like genetically.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Crete_Armenoi is very unreliable though. We have to wait.

It should bee seen in a PCA, because Gedmatch oracles aren't always reliable.

It would be much better to wait for professional PCA works. I am, like, extremly curious to learn how Athenians and Spartans were like genetically.

It already exists a "professional" PCA on Minoans, Mycenaeans and Crete Armenoi.

 

[Angela]

It should bee seen in a PCA, because Gedmatch oracles aren't always reliable.





It already exists a "professional" PCA on Minoans, Mycenaeans and Crete Armenoi.

Whose author told us that the sample is such that no one should be drawing hard and fast conclusions from it, not that it should have needed him to tell the amateur community that. You just had to see how incomplete it was.

I don't know what more people need to hear.

Meanwhile, after years of accepting the dating for the ancient samples based on context, when something comes up that doesn't fit their agenda, whole bunches of people demand radio carbon dating.

I mean, you couldn't make it up.

 

[ihype02]

Armenoi is actually the closest to Greeks it seems.

 

[Angela]

Armenoi is actually the closest to Greeks it seems.

It is NOT good for comparison purposes because it is not a good sample. Is there something you don't understand about that?

If they are ever able to get a good sample from that place and time then we would know.

 

[davef]

That Armenoi is so broken that she's British-like with a bit of middle eastern to some calculators, yet mostly Iberian-like to others. I doubt Iberian/British like people were around in ancient Crete

I think it's best to ignore it, ihype. It's faulty and gives strange results

 

[ihype02]

It is NOT good for comparison purposes because it is not a good sample. Is there something you don't understand about that?

If they are ever able to get a good sample from that place and time then we would know.

I see.

..........

 

[ihype02]

That Armenoi is so broken that she's British-like with a bit of middle eastern to some calculators, yet mostly Iberian-like to others. I doubt Iberian/British like people were around in ancient Crete

I think it's best to ignore it, ihype. It's faulty and gives strange results

Yeah it was so weird when I saw it. Actually Minoans turned to be more European than I expected. They appeared so dark in ancient paitings one would think they were the cousins of Egyptians.

 

[Pax Augusta]

This is the position of Crete Armenoi in the Lazaridis' PCA. I don't understand why people don't trust someone like Lazaridis who is Research Associate at Harvard Medical School, but people rather trust more Gedmatch and bloggers who have no B.A., M.S., PhD, and do not work in any academic department.

Yeah it was so weird when I saw it. Actually Minoans turned to be more European than I expected. They appeared so dark in ancient paitings one would think they were the cousins of Egyptians.

Well, those frescoes are very far from a naturalistic representation. Naturalistic painted portraits start to spread much later.

 

[Angela]

A PCA only captures two dimensions, although they are the most important dimensions.

However, even without the Reich Lab comment on it, all you had to do was see how few alleles are in it. It's a damaged sample. When you have such low quality samples you shouldn't be using them to create any grand theories.

It's just dishonest.

Again with the pigmentation. The ancients portrayed women as lighter and men as darker because the men are tanned. Mediterraneans TAN. If they didn't they couldn't survive in their climates. Is that a difficult concept? It seems so.

 

[ihype02]

Yes Pax Augusta, I saw the Lazaridis work after you reminded me in the post number 1068.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Yeah it was so weird when I saw it. Actually Minoans turned to be more European than I expected. They appeared so dark in ancient paitings one would think they were the cousins of Egyptians.

What others said is correct more or less. There are artistic conventions in Cretan art.

Αpart from that...

The Greek sources point to some variance in pigmentation and both the lighter and darker pigmentations had some positive connotations in some ancient works. For example, the darker pigmentations were considered more 'manly', the lighter more 'god-like' etc

Here is for example what is written in the Republic.

One because his nose is uptilted, you will praise as piquant,the beak of another you will pronounce right royal, theintermediate type you say strikes the harmonious mean, the swarthy are of manly aspect, the white are children of godsdivinely fair, and as for 'honey-hued', do you suppose thevery word is anything but the euphemistic invention ofsome lover who can feel no distaste for sallowness ...(Republic V.474d-e)

Each translator has to make many choices. And the choices they made were often bad or questionable. For example the word they translate as 'uptilted' often has a meaning snub-nosed, flat-nosed too.

Actually that translator, practically, has added something that doesn't exist in the original. The expression 'divenely fair' doesn't exist in the text. That translation is ~115 years old (Oxford University Press) though.

The words translated as 'swarthy' and 'white' should be translated as 'dark' and 'light'. What he meant exactly is uncertain because color terms are relative but the words 'swarthy' and 'white' are loaded. It is definetely a bad choice to use them.

So if we remove the additions and avoid loaded words we would have something like

One because he is σιμός* will be praised by you as charming (pleasing), the beak of another you will say is royal, the intermediate type you say is very well proportioned, the darker ones will be seen as manly, the lighter ones to be children of gods, and as for honey-hued (lit. honey-yellow/green), do you suppose the very word (lit. name) is anything but the invention (lit. creation) of some lover who tolerates and uses endearing names for sallowness (yellowness, pallor)... (Republic V.474d-e)

*σιμός = either someone with uptilted nose or more often someone with flat-nose, someone snub-nosed etc (the word had been used for the noses of 'Ethiopians' and Scythians by different authors)

 

[davef]

This is the position of Crete Armenoi in the Lazaridis' PCA. I don't understand why people don't trust someone like Lazaridis who is Research Associate at Harvard Medical School, but people rather trust more Gedmatch and bloggers who have no B.A., M.S., PhD, and do not work in any academic department.

Well, those frescoes are very far from a naturalistic representation. Naturalistic painted portraits start to spread much later.

It's all about being upset over their findings. Also, some people have a tendency to claim that samples who are very "southern"
(being mostly Neolithic farmer/Caucasus) like the Minoans and Mycenaeans in this study are lowly peasants and the mighty rulers, the great
elites of the kingdom have the most amount of steppe (they just haven't been sampled yet).

 

[Jovialis]

This is the position of Crete Armenoi in the Lazaridis' PCA. I don't understand why people don't trust someone like Lazaridis who is Research Associate at Harvard Medical School, but people rather trust more Gedmatch and bloggers who have no B.A., M.S., PhD, and do not work in any academic department.

Indeed, idk why people trust these amateur calculators and even many tawdry consumer genomic tests more than the academic authority of Harvard Medical school. The name itself is synonymous with the highest academic excellence. Not to mention that Harvard has conducted the lion's share of genetic research in the past decade. People need to accept the fact that the integrity of their sources are hierarchical. And some calculator produced by a layman, is comically far from being in the same league.