Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

I do think racism is as natural as the molecules themselves, but it's especially funny to see it manifest in a bunch of nerds throwing data at each other. This is a relatively new thing and it's both terrifying and hilarious.
 
Ralphie Boy said:
If so it’s because modern Greeks have gained admixture over the many years. Not many people are denying that. The authors of the study said it, that the moderns are a result of their long history and the genetic effects.
Again, modern Greeks’ biggest share of autosomal genetic ancestry comes from early Neolithic farmers. They are not alone in this, nor are they the only people with farmer ancestry. This does not mean that they are the closest of living peoples to Mycenaeans, but simply that they and Mycenaeans are primarily descended from the farmers.
We don’t need genetic studies to see many modern Greeks look “Greek,” like they have indigenous ancestry based on the southeastern European climate.
Science at this point presents evidence contrary to those who wish to strip away Greeks’ ancestral heritage.
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I mean it because of Bronze Age collapse.
Mycenaean civilisation was overthrown by northern Greek tribes. In my opinion the Hellenes of Classical antiquity were no more than 60% Mycenaean.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse
 
Tutkun Arnaut said:
For the debate to make sense some definitions are necessary. Let say who by definition is Greek?
There are two terms present day Greeks use interchangeably, Greek and Helen. Are they equivalent? I would say no. Greek is a much wider term than Helene. Greek includes anyone who is culturally Greek, speaks the language, feels belong in that community, regardless the region where they live, etc.... So as many times we have debated the present day Greek population is minority Helene, since Present day Greece includes Macedonia who spoke different language but were Hellenised, Region of Thracia which were given to Greece without them being anywhere close to Greeks, Most of Albanian inhabited Epirus region, not to mention here large population movements documented by Greek historians. Also Greeks moved from Anatolia to Greece this century were heavily assimilating native Anatolian population.
Now Mysenians were a pre Hellenic people, they had nothing in common with Hellenes so it would be a major wander if present day Greeks are a quarter genetically identical to Mysenians let alone 50% could not be comprehended. Now Rich's lab employs many Greeks and their findings can not be trusted since they have a conflict of interest and they play largely by politics of the day.
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Myceneans were also Anatolians too,

IF YOU MANGE TO READ THE PAPPER
 
holderlin said:
I do think racism is as natural as the molecules themselves, but it's especially funny to see it manifest in a bunch of nerds throwing data at each other. This is a relatively new thing and it's both terrifying and hilarious.
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That is human nature,

when we break the core of an atomo, the atomic or nuclear theory,
we make a bomb first,
we throw it to eneny.
today we make energy plants.

when someone is nationalist sees everywhere his nation,
and that is ok,
the problem is on how many lies he grew,
and what is a lie and a truth for him,
 
Ralphie Boy said:
If so it’s because modern Greeks have gained admixture over the many years. Not many people are denying that. The authors of the study said it, that the moderns are a result of their long history and the genetic effects.

Again, modern Greeks’ biggest share of autosomal genetic ancestry comes from early Neolithic farmers. They are not alone in this, nor are they the only people with farmer ancestry. This does not mean that they are the closest of living peoples to Mycenaeans, but simply that they and Mycenaeans are primarily descended from the farmers.

We don’t need genetic studies to see many modern Greeks look “Greek,” like they have indigenous ancestry based on the southeastern European climate.

Science at this point presents evidence contrary to those who wish to strip away Greeks’ ancestral heritage.
Click to expand...

I think modern Greeks are Mycenaean like genetically in that sense they are descended from Neolithic farmers, and are European Mediterranean just like the Mycenaeans were. But those results are not meant to be taken literally, because with that logic Ashkenazi Jews and Albanians (who overlap with mainland Greeks) are also largely descended from Mycenaeans. Look at Albanians and mainland Greeks in the PCA:

33016272762_2f3e139a15_b.jpg


Thracians, Italians, Illyrians, and Hellenes, probably, had minor genetic distance and it is not easy to distinguish. Take an Arvanite from Attica, he will probably score high as ''Mycenaean'', but that doesn't mean he is descended from them.
Besides what northern Greek tribes that burned down the Mycenaean civilisation did contribute something, didn't they?
 
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Angela said:
Yes, I know. That's why I said they might also be actual Turks who plot nearer, but do NOT overlap with Greeks. Also, they're outliers.

The samples come from the Asymetrix Human Origins Genotype Array. I've never been able to find a site that gives the source for all the samples. I hope you have better luck. It would be very interesting.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4170574/#SD1

there is a table in the supplementary data from the study where it lists all genomes that were sequenced on that hog array by different people. the turkish samples in that table are probably the ones used for the study. the samples aren't that unequally distributed. so those few turkish points near the greeks were as it seems really just outliers. 4 of those samples have no specific region and are only labeled as turkish while the rest of the samples have a specific region tied to them. they were also part of a different study than the rest. so maybe those 4 are the outliers.
 
OMG!!! Sikeliot and his socks are having a heart attack! :)
 
Its from Eurogenes/Davidski.
 
Angela said:
What oh what does Sikeliot think? Oh, maybe he's gone out to drown his sorrows.:)
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Sikeliot on the study:
The study tried to spin it otherwise, but it does.

If Mycenaean is best modeled by Sicilian, and we assume slightly more Northern input came with the Dorians, and we can typically model modern Greeks as 2/3 to 3/4 Sicilian and the rest NE European, then it means that up to 25-33% of modern mainland Greeks' DNA predates that of the Mycenaeans.

So while Sicilian can be seen as "proto-Greek" (even though I believe ancient Sicilians were more Levantine than today, it is MODERN Sicilians who are Mycenaean-like), modern Greeks shift much north of this.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/s...t-of-Dorian-and-later-Slavic-in-modern-Greeks
 
ihype02 said:
Sikeliot on the study:
The study tried to spin it otherwise, but it does.

If Mycenaean is best modeled by Sicilian, and we assume slightly more Northern input came with the Dorians, and we can typically model modern Greeks as 2/3 to 3/4 Sicilian and the rest NE European, then it means that up to 25-33% of modern mainland Greeks' DNA predates that of the Mycenaeans.

So while Sicilian can be seen as "proto-Greek" (even though I believe ancient Sicilians were more Levantine than today, it is MODERN Sicilians who are Mycenaean-like), modern Greeks shift much north of this.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/s...t-of-Dorian-and-later-Slavic-in-modern-Greeks
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I'll give that prime example of assumption upon assumption and complete illogic the response it deserves: SILENCE.

Who ever said that modern mainland Greeks are clones of the Mycenaeans? Who has ever denied that there was post Mycenaean input into Greece which brought more "northern" alleles with it?

THAT'S ONE OF THE MAJOR FINDINGS OF THE PAPER, WHICH YOU CLEARLY HAVEN'T READ.

As for the graphic, he's an impeached witness as far as I'm concerned, notorious for manipulating results by his choice of samples. I wouldn't go placing bets on it being correct, over and beyond the fact that it is by its very nature only two dimensions, covering in this case we don't know what percentage of variation.

Still, I find a certain amount of black humor in the fact that poor Sikeliot's resource for some of his nonsense places the Mycenaeans "south" of MODERN Sicilians and Southern Italians and closer to Jews and other people with more Levant like DNA :)
 
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Classical Greeks may or may not have had more diverse ancestry compared to the Mycenaeans. This does not make them any less Greek, since the ethnogenesis of the Greeks slowly started to take shape over the centuries. If the classical Greeks show a greater rate of genetic variety compared to Mycenaeans, then this is who Greeks are. That said, the mere fact that there is considerable genetic continuity since Mycenean Greece is highly revealing. Clearly, Mycenaeans are the basic source population for all later Greek peoples. Also, the fact that neighboring populations have high rates of EEF shows that at the very least, the flow of newcomers (Goths, Slavs, Turks, Semitic peoples etc) to that area was not sufficient enough to break the genetic continuity of the native population.

That said, I agree that Classcal Greeks were not solely Mycenaeans.
 
dianatomia said:
classical greeks may or may not have had more diverse ancestry compared to the mycenaeans. This does not make them any less greek, since the ethnogenesis of the greeks slowly started to take shape over the centuries. If the classical greeks show a greater rate of genetic variety compared to mycenaeans, then this is who greeks are. That said, the mere fact that there is considerable genetic continuity since mycenean greece is highly revealing. Clearly, mycenaeans are the basic source population for all later greek peoples. Also, the fact that neighboring populations have high rates of eef shows that at the very least, the flow of newcomers (goths, slavs, turks, semitic peoples etc) to that area was not sufficient enough to break the genetic continuity of the native population.

That said, i agree that classcal greeks were not solely mycenaeans.
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yes!!!!!!! Bingo.
 
Cato said:
Maybe those Bronze Age Italians contribuited a bit in the ancestry of Classical Greeks..i'm talking about the presence of R1b U152 in Greece and Crete. Just a guess

https://www.researchgate.net/public...logisches_Korrespondenzblatt_432_2013_175-193

Plus the Dorians, obviously and other groups like the Bryges

Utilizzando Tapatalk
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R1b might be upsent in Greek world, and might also upsent in the whole IE anatolian world.
there is a lot of discuss about it.
there was a rumor about it, as found in Neolithic, but nothing.
but until now no evidence of any kind of R1b,
R1b might be Roman era import.
yet enough modern Greeks have R1b,

in fact R1b except Hettites,
could be missing not only from IE Greeks but in the whole South Balkan peninsula, and in early Anatolian IE speakers,
 
Alyan said:
So according to a post on Anthrogenetica, we should get a paper on Classical Greek DNA:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15180-How-genetically-similar-are-Modern-Greeks-to-the-ancient-ones&p=477189&viewfull=1

browse.php
Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos

Hi, Nikos, I'm a genomics hobbyist and happened to catch your IMBB talk touching on ancient DNA from Amvrakia, medieval Heraklion, etc. Did you get autosomal DNA, too, or just uniparentals? Any idea on when a paper with these samples might be released to the public? As a Greek myself, I can't wait to see some classical and Byzantine era genomes so we can compare them to Lazaridis' Mycenaean paper.


browse.php
Originally Posted by Nikos Psonis
Hello Mike, we have just started screening the genome of samples from different times and from different places of Greece. The results are promising, but I do not know when we are going to publish them. I hope soon. I will let you know. Thank you for your interest. Nikos
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This is exciting. When they publish we will get some insight on the genetic evolution of the Greeks throughout different periods of time. I am sure we will be able add some more pieces to the puzzle.
 
Angela said:
I'll give that prime example of assumption upon assumption and complete illogic the response it deserves: SILENCE.

Who ever said that modern mainland Greeks are clones of the Mycenaeans? Who has ever denied that there was post Mycenaean input into Greece which brought more "northern" alleles with it?

THAT'S ONE OF THE MAJOR FINDINGS OF THE PAPER, WHICH YOU CLEARLY HAVEN'T READ.

As for the graphic, he's an impeached witness as far as I'm concerned, notorious for manipulating results by his choice of samples. I wouldn't go placing bets on it being correct, over and beyond the fact that it is by its very nature only two dimensions, covering in this case we don't know what percentage of variation.

Still, I find a certain amount of black humor in the fact that poor Sikeliot's resource for some of his nonsense places the Mycenaeans "south" of MODERN Sicilians and Southern Italians and closer to Jews and other people with more Levant like DNA :)
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Ok, I was wrong. (after rechecking the PCA). Only half of Mycenaeans are south of Sicilians. But I and he never said that they are closer to Jews than to Sicilians, I said they are closer to Jews than modern Greeks.
lYAJbT5.jpg


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