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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Thank you for the link.
    Can we say that these results definitively demonstrate the percentage of different haplogroups among Albanian?
    Go take a nap, bro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Go take a nap, bro.
    Didn't asked you. Are you and Demetrios the same person?
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Thank you for the link.
    Can we say that these results definitively demonstrate the percentage of different haplogroups among Albanian?
    As with all statistics they represent averages. The larger and more diversified the database of the samples, the more realistic the frequencies will be. In any case, 484 samples and 295 samples for Ghegs and Tosks respectively is significant. I don't think the frequencies will change much in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    There are Greek E-V13 lines that have a TMRCA of 4300 and 4100 ybp, which can be identified as proto-Greek. Furthermore, even if the 3000 ybp line you refer to entered Greece after the proto-Greek and Mycenaean periods, i wouldn't consider it as a non-Greek lineage. After all, this period is prior of the Archaic Age, that saw the ethnogenesis of the Greek nation. The Greek ethnogenesis is linked to the development of Pan-Hellenism in the 8th century BCE, and the establishment of the ancient Olympic Games (776 BCE). Of course Greek history begins much prior of that, but ethnogenesis is something different.
    I mentioned "exceptions" and even the two clades you refer to (E-BY3880 and E-37092) also show up in Montenegro and Bulgaria and are not good candidates for proto-Greek.





    As for the "archaic age" ethnogenesis argument. This is just a way of saying a non-greek lineage that became greek at a later point. Normans which are germanic tribe in origin, are very important also for French ethnogenesis, who speak a romance language, but that doesn't mean they didn't enter the french people as non-romance speakers/ethnicity. And we don't erase the non-romance origins of the Normans. For now Ev13 shows all signs of having non-greek origins.

    If new samples show up maybe this changes, but for now thats what the data shows.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    As with all statistics they represent averages. The larger and more diversified the database of the samples, the more realistic the frequencies will be. In any case, 484 samples and 295 samples for Ghegs and Tosks respectively is significant. I don't think the frequencies will change much in the future.
    Of course, you explained the past in your style, now you are predicting even the future.

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    Demetrios, you have been discussing the origin of the Albanians for two days. This is not a thread about the origin of the Albanians. Anyway, i will try to be short.
    You have quoted here an article without author but you pretend that you know who is the author because he is your friend. I am not going to deal with your friend, because there are millions like him who publish today on internet. Great invention the internet.
    You said:
    I am not absolute either on the matter, other than viewing Albanian as a palaeo-Balkan Indo-European language. Everything else are just hypotheses. As for geographic distribution, it is only suggestive not indicative of Illyrian affiliation, and besides, the modern distribution of Albanians is not that which was 1000-1200 years ago. Furthermore, the widespread assumed homeland of proto-Albanians is placed within the confines of the Roman province of "Moesia Superior" which was inhabited by Thracians, Dacians, Illyrian and Thraco-Illyrian (Dardani) peoples. Therefore geographically it isn't that extreme to consider proto-Albanian as stemming from a Daco-Moesian dialect. But my personal view deviates a little from Kitselis' article, and certainly i don't hold a view that relates Carpi (supposed NE-Dacian tribe) to proto-Albanians, and neither does Kitselis from what i gather. I also, haven't excluded a Thraco-Illyrian, or an Illyrian origin for that matter.
    The science that deals with the origin of a nation is history, btw, a greek word. From a historical point of view(let`s leave aside Kitselis and others like him), there is not one single primary source, a historical document to prove your conclusion, ZERO. Albanians are native exactly in the region where they live today.
    From the other side, again from an historical point of view, it is documented that the nations and ethnic groups, that surround the Albanians, arrived and settled in the region during different periods of history.
    I appologise to the other members for this off-topic but i think this clarification was necessary.

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    1 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    I don't know how accurate '' mY HERETAGE is", but it shows that less native people of Ballkans other than slavs, are Greeks. How can a Greek person claim being native in the area when almost all of them have Middle eastern, North African, West Asian and Italian genes. The only people with less contaminated DNA in the area are Albanians.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    I don't know how accurate '' mY HERETAGE is", but it shows that less native people of Ballkans other than slavs, are Greeks. How can a Greek person claim being native in the area when almost all of them have Middle eastern, North African, West Asian and Italian genes. The only people with less contaminated DNA in the area are Albanians.
    In the very study of this thread, modern Greeks have a substantial amount of Early Neolithic Farmer genes, stating genetic continuity with Mycenaeans but with more Steppe admixture. Maybe we should consider a scientific, peer-reviewed study more than the results of a commercial testing company.

    Here is a quote from the study:

    “Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.”

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    You write, "I mentioned "exceptions" and even the two clades you refer to (E-BY3880 and E-37092) also show up in Montenegro and Bulgaria and are not good candidates for proto-Greek.".
    Yeah, thanks for the image, here are the links as well.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY3880/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y37092/
    Furthermore, i don't see why it would exclude them from being proto-Greek just because they also show up in Montenegro and Bulgaria. It is a widespread view that proto-Greek descended from the Balkans and reached northern Greece sometime during the 3rd millennium BCE (3000-2000 BCE), it is only natural to see these lines throughout the route. Furthermore, it is a known fact that Greeks reached and colonized both Thrace (Bulgaria), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_colonies_in_Thrace, and Illyria (Montenegro), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_colonies_in_Illyria.

    You write, "As for the "archaic age" ethnogenesis argument. This is just a way of saying a non-greek lineage that became greek at a later point. Normans which are germanic tribe in origin, are very important also for French ethnogenesis, who speak a romance language, but that doesn't mean they didn't enter the french people as non-romance speakers/ethnicity. And we don't erase the non-romance origins of the Normans. For now Ev13 shows all signs of having non-greek origins.".
    Are you trying to say that the 3000 ybp lineage is not a proto-Greek lineage? So what? That doesn't mean much. All nations have lineages that were introduced later and became part of the broader collective, let alone this ancient case which appears to have been introduced prior of the Greek ethnogenesis. We also have non-IE lineages which were eventually assimilated by the advent of IEs throughout Europe. Last, E-BY3880 and E-37092 appear to have been part of the proto-Greeks, therefore not really, in response to your last sentence. If you want to term this 3000 ybp as non-proto-Greek, fine, but don't call it non-Greek because it is false.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    I don't know how accurate '' mY HERETAGE is", but it shows that less native people of Ballkans other than slavs, are Greeks. How can a Greek person claim being native in the area when almost all of them have Middle eastern, North African, West Asian and Italian genes. The only people with less contaminated DNA in the area are Albanians.
    The least thing you could have done was to at least go and study the paper this thread is based on. Some of you really need to be a little more serious with your answers, since other more knowledgeable people are also reading this thread, and to be honest you embarrass yourselves. And don't just rest on this study. It is pretty much established that Greeks and Albanians have very similar autosomal DNA, much of which is Neolithic in origin. But somehow Greeks are Middle-Eastern, North-Africans, and West-Asians, while Albanians aren't. OK.

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    You write, "Of course, you explained the past in your style, now you are predicting even the future.".
    Yes, i am. And it is actually rationally based on the data.

    You write, "Demetrios, you have been discussing the origin of the Albanians for two days. This is not a thread about the origin of the Albanians.".
    It was not my purpose to begin a discussion about the origin of Albanians and other Balkan people, and neither would i like to continue it.

    You write, "Anyway, i will try to be short. You have quoted here an article without author but you pretend that you know who is the author because he is your friend. I am not going to deal with your friend, because there are millions like him who publish today on internet. Great invention the internet.".
    I have had dozens of discussions with Kitselis. This is his website. You may as well contact him through the contact page of the website and find out for yourself. Yeah, the internet is a great invention, it gives an opportunity for everyone to share his/her knowledge and ideas, and be open to scrutiny.

    You write, "The science that deals with the origin of a nation is history, btw, a greek word. From a historical point of view(let`s leave aside Kitselis and others like him), there is not one single primary source, a historical document to prove your conclusion, ZERO. Albanians are native exactly in the region where they live today.".
    It is actually based on Byzantine historical accounts that we know that Albanians began their southward migrations during the beginning of the 2nd millennium CE (1100-1350 CE).

    Their language also attests that, bearing in mind that it shows no Hellenization, but rather Romanization, with Latin roots comprising over 60% of the Albanian lexicon. This indicates that it evolved north of the Jireček Line, within the Latin sphere of influence.

    You writ
    e, "From the other side, again from an historical point of view, it is documented that the nations and ethnic groups, that surround the Albanians, arrived and settled in the region during different periods of history.".
    Slavs, yes. Greeks on the other hand are among the few nations worldwide to have such a significant documented and strong presence in the southern Balkans throughout the millennia. Furthermore, Greeks and Albanians appear to have a very similar autosomal DNA, with both largely descending from the Neolithic EEF (Early European Farmers). But from a Y-DNA perspective and linguistics, they are both largely IE. The most prevalent EEF Y-DNA haplogroup was G2a (61%), which in Albanians accounts for 1% and in Greeks for 6.5%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Despite Ev13 frequency in Greece today, by tmrca's we see that it must have entered greece in the last 3000 years from the north. This is too late in greek history, meaning it entered as a non-greek lineage. There are some clades which are exceptions, but for most part so far this seems to be the trend.
    Yes that does seem to be the case. Many V13 clades in Greece seem to have come from the north sometime during the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age. Clades such as CTS9320 (~3,000ybp) and FGC11450 (~3,200ybp) have low TMRCAs which wouldn't fit in with the Early Greeks (Mycenaeans) , they also have basal clades that pop up mainly north of Greece.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    @Ownstyler if you want to discuss this further let's move to PM. The same goes to everyone who seems to disagree with what is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "I mentioned "exceptions" and even the two clades you refer to (E-BY3880 and E-37092) also show up in Montenegro and Bulgaria and are not good candidates for proto-Greek.".
    Yeah, thanks for the image, here are the links as well.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY3880/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y37092/
    Furthermore, i don't see why it would exclude them from being proto-Greek just because they also show up in Montenegro and Bulgaria. It is a widespread view that proto-Greek descended from the Balkans and reached northern Greece sometime during the 3rd millennium BCE (3000-2000 BCE), it is only natural to see these lines throughout the route. Furthermore, it is a known fact that Greeks reached and colonized both Thrace (Bulgaria), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_colonies_in_Thrace, and Illyria (Montenegro), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_colonies_in_Illyria.
    Greek colonies in illyria are post 1000BC. That's quite improbable argument that greek colonists transported archaic ~4000Ybp lineages to illyria and thrace from the south, when central europe/carpathian basin seems to be general location of EV13 in early bronze age, and majority of clades in Greece are younger than 3000Ybp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post

    You write, "As for the "archaic age" ethnogenesis argument. This is just a way of saying a non-greek lineage that became greek at a later point. Normans which are germanic tribe in origin, are very important also for French ethnogenesis, who speak a romance language, but that doesn't mean they didn't enter the french people as non-romance speakers/ethnicity. And we don't erase the non-romance origins of the Normans. For now Ev13 shows all signs of having non-greek origins.".

    Are you trying to say that the 3000 ybp lineage is not a proto-Greek lineage? So what? That doesn't mean much. We also have non-IE lineages which were eventually assimilated by the advent of IEs throughout Europe. If you want to term this 3000 ybp as non-proto-Greek, fine, but don't call it non-Greek because it is false.
    Well, yes. That is the crux of the argument. It means a lot, because if there is a large scale invasion and destruction of myceneaen civillization around 1000BC and these people are the best candidates for bringing EV13, then it's very important to recognize these can't have been proto-greek speakers but must have become hellenized upon their entry into greece or around then. It has a lot of concrete ramifications for Greek historiography.


    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    All nations have lineages that were introduced later and became part of the broader collective, let alone this ancient case which appears to have been introduced prior of the Greek ethnogenesis.
    Sure, but the point is to demarcate which lineages joined at which time, in what manner, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    If you want to term this 3000 ybp as non-proto-Greek, fine, but don't call it non-Greek because it is false.
    I didn't notice this philosophy about ethnicities when you were arguing about Albanian origins.

    EV13 in Greece is not just one minor lineage, it has a very large frequency, and Greeks should have a clear concept of what it means to be a Greek. If 20-30% of Greeks descend from Illyrians/Thracians that invaded Greece 3000 years ago and then became hellenized, that is very significant.

    The part about non-proto-greek vs non-greek is pedantry for the purpose of obfuscation. By virtue of being non-proto-Greek as you call it, it must have been one of the northern paleo-balkan languages before hellenization, correct?

    It would be like refusing to say I2a in Greeks today has Slavic origin since its been in Greek people for 1400 years. When talking about origins, its perfectly correct to state it as non-greek, and likewise it goes for EV13, since it seems it has non-Greek origins in Greece, including the two clades you mentioned for which the evidence for proto-greek association is unconvincing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @Ownstyler if you want to discuss this further let's move to PM. The same goes to everyone who seems to disagree with what is written.
    There is a thread which focuses on the origin of the Albanians and our DNA. Best to discuss there imo.

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    You write, "Greek colonies in illyria are post 1000BC. That's quite improbable argument that greek colonists transported archaic ~4000Ybp lineages to illyria and thrace from the south, when central europe/carpathian basin seems to be general location of EV13 in early bronze age, and majority of clades in Greece are younger than 3000Ybp.".
    We even have E-V13 in the Volga region, which suggests that it was present among PIEs. In fact, the Greek line E-BY3880 appears to descend from Northern Caucasus. We find it's predecessor, E-CTS1273, in the Republic of North Ossetia – Alania 4500 ybp. Therefore it was very likely among the proto-Greek lines. So was E-Y37092.


    You write, "Well, yes. That is the crux of the argument. It means a lot, because if there is a large scale invasion and destruction of myceneaen civillization around 1000BC and these people are the best candidates for bringing EV13, then it's very important to recognize these can't have been proto-greek speakers but must have become hellenized upon their entry into greece or around then. It has a lot of concrete ramifications for Greek historiography.".

    The Bronze Age collapse took place during 1200-1150 BCE. In any case, these non-proto-Greek E-V13 lines cannot be associated with Dorians if that's what you are thinking. Dorians were linguistically very conservative, and in fact their dialect had preserved many archaic elements which suggests direct proto-Greek continuity and certainly not assimilation. If anything, these lines could very well be Thracian or even directly from the Hallstatt culture. For example, lines related to E-Y150909a appear to have a distribution in line with the Celts of antiquity and their subsequent migrations.

    You write, "Sure, but the point is to demarcate which lineages joined at which time, in what manner, etc.".

    No problem with that.

    You write, "
    I didn't notice this philosophy about ethnicities when you were arguing about Albanian origins.".
    How exactly didn't you notice. That's exactly what we have been trying to find out. Which we can consider proto-Albanian lines and which proto-Romanian, in order to come to a conclusion about the common linguistic substrate the two people share.


    You write, "EV13 in Greece is not just one minor lineage, it has a very large frequency, and Greeks should have a clear concept of what it means to be a Greek. If 20-30% of Greeks descend from Illyrians/Thracians that invaded Greece 3000 years ago and then became hellenized, that is very significant.".

    E-V13 has many lines in Greece, and again some can be safely considered proto-Greek. If you have a source presenting the frequencies of each E-V13 line in the Greek population i would very much like to see it, especially when you throw a 20-30% frequency. As for the 3000 ybp lines, well you cannot really call them Illyrian. The first historical mention of Illyrians dates to the mid-4th century BCE, in the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax. And archaeologically Illyrians only emerge during the 7th century BCE with a distinct culture and art form. You might as well call them Celtic. Furthermore, their distribution doesn't really hint a western Balkan origin.

    You write, "The part about non-proto-greek vs non-greek is pedantry for the purpose of obfuscation. By virtue of being non-proto-Greek as you call it, it must have been one of the northern paleo-balkan languages before hellenization, correct?".

    It isn't at all. A good example can be presented if we instead speak along autosomal lines. Wouldn't you consider Mycenaeans as Greeks? But how much proto-Greek autosomal influence did they inherit when only 4-16% of their autosomal make-up appears to be Steppe in origin, and much of the rest Neolithic, or assimilated? As for your second point, not necessarily palaeo-Balkan. It could have come directly from Hallstatt.

    You write, "It would be like refusing to say I2a in Greeks today has Slavic origin since its been in Greek people for 1400 years. When talking about origins, its perfectly correct to state it as non-greek, and likewise it goes for EV13, since it seems it has non-Greek origins in Greece, including the two clades you mentioned for which the evidence for proto-greek association is unconvincing.".

    Not all I2a has Slavic origin. I2a has been in the Balkans since the Neolithic Age, it would require a careful analysis of each line to determine which is Slavic and which isn't. An yes, some has Slavic origin, the same is true with some R1a lines. And by the way, the same is true in an Albanian context. Hence why designations such as proto-Greek, proto-Albanian, proto-Romanian, etc. are all crucial in a discussion. As for the two proto-Greek E-V13 lines i mentioned, i don't expect you to agree with me mate, even when they are very convincingly pre-Mycenaean and proto-Greek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    There is a thread which focuses on the origin of the Albanians and our DNA. Best to discuss there imo.
    I am not really interested to discuss the origin of Albanians because there is always too much drama. And in general, i only follow two threads, this one, and the "Population structure in Italy using ancient and modern samples".

  18. #1493
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    E-V13 has many lines in Greece, and again some can be safely considered proto-Greek. If you have a source presenting the frequencies of each E-V13 line in the Greek population i would very much like to see it, especially when you throw a 20-30% frequency.
    On Eupedia, old Dienekes blogposts, some other forums, roughly this is the number that is seen. You know that very well. Then on the Em35 project, and Yfull checking greek results one can learn about individual clades.

    But you are right, there is no greek dna project transparantly making their results available like the Albanian dna project. That doesn't surprise me.

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml


    There is nothing convincingly proto-greek about those two individual clades, and even if one of them was, it would negate the other, since one is in montenegro, the other in bulgaria.

    If you really want to avoid the Illyrian term, call it hallstatt, call it celt, call it thracian, it still isn't greek.

    Majority of I2a in greeks and Albanians is slavic, and its clear to anybody that the exceptions are well known, aka the gothic one, etc. Those are a given. Yet again, Albanian dna project is very transparant, we show all our lineages, even foreign ones, whereas I don't see any greek dna project doing this. You should agitate your fellow countrymen to do the same so you won't be stuck to only studying Albanian percentages meticulously.

    Greeks archaeologically emerge in 7th century BC, this is their ethnogenesis remember?

    Why would we speak along autosomal lines if discussing patrilineality? We are speaking about whether paternal groups came with a greek group or a non-greek group, and how non-greek men (hallstatians, celtics, thracians, illyrians) brought them to greece.

    Again, Ev13 in the volga, etc doesn't relate to the majority of Greek ev13 being clades that are younger than 3000 years and come from non-greek balkan areas.

    Take E-FGC33621 for example. You have it in Chania, Crete, a basal clade in Bulgaria, and a very deep rooted Albanian clan that belongs to it, and north west euros also. Nothing at all proto-greek about it:


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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    “It would be like refusing to say I2a in Greeks today has Slavic origin since its been in Greek people for 1400 years. When talking about origins, its perfectly correct to state it as non-greek, and likewise it goes for EV13, since it seems it has non-Greek origins in Greece, including the two clades you mentioned for which the evidence for proto-greek association is unconvincing.”

    There is a branch of I2a-CTS10228 (Dinaric), Y18331, in which there are a lot of Greeks, in all the major sub-branches. Per YFull, the main sub-branches formed over 2,000 years ago. There are zero Balkan Slavs and no East European Slavs in Y18331. The East Europeans in Y18331 are all Jewish men, downstream. There are some Latin Americans with likely Greek origin in the branch, as well as one Chuvash man and a Russian man from a part of Russia that’s much farther east than East Europe.

    So it might not be accurate to state or imply that all I2a Greeks are descended from Slavs. Some could be descended from I2a men who came to Greece earlier than the Slavic invasions or independent from them. At this point we don’t know for sure, but we can go with the current evidence.


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "Of course, you explained the past in your style, now you are predicting even the future.".
    Yes, i am. And it is actually rationally based on the data.

    You write, "Demetrios, you have been discussing the origin of the Albanians for two days. This is not a thread about the origin of the Albanians.".
    It was not my purpose to begin a discussion about the origin of Albanians and other Balkan people, and neither would i like to continue it.

    You write, "Anyway, i will try to be short. You have quoted here an article without author but you pretend that you know who is the author because he is your friend. I am not going to deal with your friend, because there are millions like him who publish today on internet. Great invention the internet.".
    I have had dozens of discussions with Kitselis. This is his website. You may as well contact him through the contact page of the website and find out for yourself. Yeah, the internet is a great invention, it gives an opportunity for everyone to share his/her knowledge and ideas, and be open to scrutiny.

    You write, "The science that deals with the origin of a nation is history, btw, a greek word. From a historical point of view(let`s leave aside Kitselis and others like him), there is not one single primary source, a historical document to prove your conclusion, ZERO. Albanians are native exactly in the region where they live today.".
    It is actually based on Byzantine historical accounts that we know that Albanians began their southward migrations during the beginning of the 2nd millennium CE (1100-1350 CE).

    Their language also attests that, bearing in mind that it shows no Hellenization, but rather Romanization, with Latin roots comprising over 60% of the Albanian lexicon. This indicates that it evolved north of the Jireček Line, within the Latin sphere of influence.

    You writ
    e, "From the other side, again from an historical point of view, it is documented that the nations and ethnic groups, that surround the Albanians, arrived and settled in the region during different periods of history.".
    Slavs, yes. Greeks on the other hand are among the few nations worldwide to have such a significant documented and strong presence in the southern Balkans throughout the millennia. Furthermore, Greeks and Albanians appear to have a very similar autosomal DNA, with both largely descending from the Neolithic EEF (Early European Farmers). But from a Y-DNA perspective and linguistics, they are both largely IE. The most prevalent EEF Y-DNA haplogroup was G2a (61%), which in Albanians accounts for 1% and in Greeks for 6.5%.
    all corinthian greeks

    In the 7th century BC, when Corinth was ruled by the tyrants Cypselus (r. 657-627 BC) and his son Periander (r. 627-585 BC), the city sent forth colonists to found new settlements: Epidamnus (modern day Durres, Albania), Syracuse, Ambracia (modern day town of Lefkas), Corcyra (modern day town of Corfu) and Anactorium. Periander also founded Apollonia (modern day Fier, Albania) and Potidaea (in Chalcidice).
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

  21. #1496
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    You write, "On Eupedia, old Dienekes blogposts, some other forums, roughly this is the number that is seen. You know that very well. Then on the Em35 project, and Yfull checking greek results one can learn about individual clades.
    But you are right, there is no greek dna project transparantly making their results available like the Albanian dna project. That doesn't surprise me.

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml”.
    I am already aware of the general E-V13 frequency in Greeks. I asked you do you have any actual sources for each individual line to be claiming most of it came 3000 ybp and supposedly having ramifications for Greek historiography and nationhood? And you obviously don’t.


    You write, “
    There is nothing convincingly proto-greek about those two individual clades, and even if one of them was, it would negate the other, since one is in montenegro, the other in bulgaria.”.

    LOL, one in Bulgaria, one in Montenegro, and both of them in Greece during the proto-Greek period. How appropriate, right?

    You write, “
    If you really want to avoid the Illyrian term, call it hallstatt, call it celt, call it thracian, it still isn't greek.”.

    I am not avoiding anything. There are differences among all these people, and we have a name for all because they are all distinctive. And most of these non-proto-Greek E-V13 (3000 ybp) lines appear to be Hallstatt or Celtic in origin, and in any case, there are no sources to establish whether they are the majority of the lines or not.

    You write, “
    Majority of I2a in greeks and Albanians is slavic, and its clear to anybody that the exceptions are well known, aka the gothic one, etc. Those are a given. Yet again, Albanian dna project is very transparant, we show all our lineages, even foreign ones, whereas I don't see any greek dna project doing this. You should agitate your fellow countrymen to do the same so you won't be stuck to only studying Albanian percentages meticulously.”.

    I didn’t claim that the majority of I2a in Greeks and Albanians is not Slavic in origin, but there is obviously pre-Slavic presence as well. As for the second point, that’s a way of saying, i don’t know of any sources, but i still claim that most of E-V13 lines in Greece are 3000 ybp, and supposedly non-Greek. I got your point.

    You write, “
    Greeks archaeologically emerge in 7th century BC, this is their ethnogenesis remember?”.

    Obviously you are a little confused and probably don’t remember. Before you wrote 3000 ybp to be too late in Greek history, now you write 7th century BCE to be the beginning. In any case, as aforementioned Greek history and archaeology begins with the proto-Greeks during the 3rd millennium BCE (look at "Minyan ware" as an archaeological example) and the ethnogenesis of the Greeks during the 8th century BCE with the rise of Pan-Hellenism (look at the ancient Olympic Games as an example). We can likewise say that the ethnogenesis of Albanians only begins with the League of Lezhë in 1444 CE, despite the fact that Albanians existed since way earlier.

    You write, “
    Why would we speak along autosomal lines if discussing patrilineality? We are speaking about whether paternal groups came with a greek group or a non-greek group, and how non-greek men (hallstatians, celtics, thracians, illyrians) brought them to greece.”.

    I bring up autosomal DNA as an example to show you that assimilation of earlier groups happened, and you still view them as Greek, despite the fact that they were not proto-Greek, but pre-Greek. The same is true with many Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups, that were either assimilations of earlier people or later introductions. Nations are always evolving. You can likewise see that in the Albanian frequencies i shared, but i am certain you wouldn’t go and call any Albanian as of Slavic, Celtic, Norman, Greek or etc. origin. You still view them as Albanian, and they are indeed. After all, Y-DNA represents only 2% of the total DNA.

    You write, “
    Again, Ev13 in the volga, etc doesn't relate to the majority of Greek ev13 being clades that are younger than 3000 years and come from non-greek balkan areas.”.

    Again with the majority. Do you have any source for claiming that the majority of E-V13 lines in Greece are from the 3000 ybp clades? You obviously don’t, but you think it as appropriate to jump to unsubstantiated conclusions. And besides, these 3000 ybp lines seem to come from non-Balkan areas, not Balkan areas.

    You write, “
    Take E-FGC33621 for example. You have it in Chania, Crete, a basal clade in Bulgaria, and a very deep rooted Albanian clan that belongs to it, and north west euros also. Nothing at all proto-greek about it:”.

    Yeah, and this line appears to be Hallstatt in origin, and one example doesn’t translate to a majority as you seem to be claiming throughout these comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    all corinthian greeks

    In the 7th century BC, when Corinth was ruled by the tyrants Cypselus (r. 657-627 BC) and his son Periander (r. 627-585 BC), the city sent forth colonists to found new settlements: Epidamnus (modern day Durres, Albania), Syracuse, Ambracia (modern day town of Lefkas), Corcyra (modern day town of Corfu) and Anactorium. Periander also founded Apollonia (modern day Fier, Albania) and Potidaea (in Chalcidice).
    Indeed, Corinthian Greeks (and their Korkyraean descendants) seem to have done most of the Greek colonization upon the Illyrian coasts. In a similar fashion that Miletians seem to have done most of the Black Sea colonizations.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    “It would be like refusing to say I2a in Greeks today has Slavic origin since its been in Greek people for 1400 years. When talking about origins, its perfectly correct to state it as non-greek, and likewise it goes for EV13, since it seems it has non-Greek origins in Greece, including the two clades you mentioned for which the evidence for proto-greek association is unconvincing.”

    There is a branch of I2a-CTS10228 (Dinaric), Y18331, in which there are a lot of Greeks, in all the major sub-branches. Per YFull, the main sub-branches formed over 2,000 years ago. There are zero Balkan Slavs and no East European Slavs in Y18331. The East Europeans in Y18331 are all Jewish men, downstream. There are some Latin Americans with likely Greek origin in the branch, as well as one Chuvash man and a Russian man from a part of Russia that’s much farther east than East Europe.

    So it might not be accurate to state or imply that all I2a Greeks are descended from Slavs. Some could be descended from I2a men who came to Greece earlier than the Slavic invasions or independent from them. At this point we don’t know for sure, but we can go with the current evidence.


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/
    2200ybp with the other 4 parallel branches that are without a doubt predominantly Slavic, that most certainly migrated to the Balkans during early Middle Ages. What are the chances for this branch to have migrated in a different period? I would say zero.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    I don't know how accurate '' mY HERETAGE is", but it shows that less native people of Ballkans other than slavs, are Greeks. How can a Greek person claim being native in the area when almost all of them have Middle eastern, North African, West Asian and Italian genes. The only people with less contaminated DNA in the area are Albanians.
    Remember those with Middle Eastern, West Asian, Caucasian and other DNA started Western Civilization. The Minoans laid the seeds of civilizations. The Mycenaeans continued that, and the Near Easterners laid even more seeds later:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalizing_period

    Cosmopolitan is not as bad as it seems. Especially when hard working people come together to build something greater than themselves.

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    @Demetrios R-M269 shows pretty fluctuations in Greece (btw a large chunk of it is R-BY611). E-V13 is not that evenly spread either. Anyway, I do am not saying we can refute all R-M269 branches as possible proto-Greek Y-DNA lines. My point is, differences in frequency are not very indicative. Diversity is much more important.

    I opened a new thread on the proto-Albanian & proto-Romanian discussion, so this one can get back to the intended topic.

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