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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    @Demetrios R-M269 shows pretty fluctuations in Greece (btw a large chunk of it is R-BY611). E-V13 is not that evenly spread either. Anyway, I do am not saying we can refute all R-M269 branches as possible proto-Greek Y-DNA lines. My point is, differences in frequency are not very indicative. Diversity is much more important.

    I opened a new thread on the proto-Albanian & proto-Romanian discussion, so this one can get back to the intended topic.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "On Eupedia, old Dienekes blogposts, some other forums, roughly this is the number that is seen. You know that very well. Then on the Em35 project, and Yfull checking greek results one can learn about individual clades.
    But you are right, there is no greek dna project transparantly making their results available like the Albanian dna project. That doesn't surprise me.

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml”.
    I am already aware of the general E-V13 frequency in Greeks. I asked you do you have any actual sources for each individual line to be claiming most of it came 3000 ybp and supposedly having ramifications for Greek historiography and nationhood? And you obviously don’t.


    You write, “
    There is nothing convincingly proto-greek about those two individual clades, and even if one of them was, it would negate the other, since one is in montenegro, the other in bulgaria.”.

    LOL, one in Bulgaria, one in Montenegro, and both of them in Greece during the proto-Greek period. How appropriate, right?

    You write, “
    If you really want to avoid the Illyrian term, call it hallstatt, call it celt, call it thracian, it still isn't greek.”.

    I am not avoiding anything. There are differences among all these people, and we have a name for all because they are all distinctive. And most of these non-proto-Greek E-V13 (3000 ybp) lines appear to be Hallstatt or Celtic in origin, and in any case, there are no sources to establish whether they are the majority of the lines or not.

    You write, “
    Majority of I2a in greeks and Albanians is slavic, and its clear to anybody that the exceptions are well known, aka the gothic one, etc. Those are a given. Yet again, Albanian dna project is very transparant, we show all our lineages, even foreign ones, whereas I don't see any greek dna project doing this. You should agitate your fellow countrymen to do the same so you won't be stuck to only studying Albanian percentages meticulously.”.

    I didn’t claim that the majority of I2a in Greeks and Albanians is not Slavic in origin, but there is obviously pre-Slavic presence as well. As for the second point, that’s a way of saying, i don’t know of any sources, but i still claim that most of E-V13 lines in Greece are 3000 ybp, and supposedly non-Greek. I got your point.

    You write, “
    Greeks archaeologically emerge in 7th century BC, this is their ethnogenesis remember?”.

    Obviously you are a little confused and probably don’t remember. Before you wrote 3000 ybp to be too late in Greek history, now you write 7th century BCE to be the beginning. In any case, as aforementioned Greek history and archaeology begins with the proto-Greeks during the 3rd millennium BCE (look at "Minyan ware" as an archaeological example) and the ethnogenesis of the Greeks during the 8th century BCE with the rise of Pan-Hellenism (look at the ancient Olympic Games as an example). We can likewise say that the ethnogenesis of Albanians only begins with the League of Lezhë in 1444 CE, despite the fact that Albanians existed since way earlier.

    You write, “
    Why would we speak along autosomal lines if discussing patrilineality? We are speaking about whether paternal groups came with a greek group or a non-greek group, and how non-greek men (hallstatians, celtics, thracians, illyrians) brought them to greece.”.

    I bring up autosomal DNA as an example to show you that assimilation of earlier groups happened, and you still view them as Greek, despite the fact that they were not proto-Greek, but pre-Greek. The same is true with many Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups, that were either assimilations of earlier people or later introductions. Nations are always evolving. You can likewise see that in the Albanian frequencies i shared, but i am certain you wouldn’t go and call any Albanian as of Slavic, Celtic, Norman, Greek or etc. origin. You still view them as Albanian, and they are indeed. After all, Y-DNA represents only 2% of the total DNA.

    You write, “
    Again, Ev13 in the volga, etc doesn't relate to the majority of Greek ev13 being clades that are younger than 3000 years and come from non-greek balkan areas.”.

    Again with the majority. Do you have any source for claiming that the majority of E-V13 lines in Greece are from the 3000 ybp clades? You obviously don’t, but you think it as appropriate to jump to unsubstantiated conclusions. And besides, these 3000 ybp lines seem to come from non-Balkan areas, not Balkan areas.

    You write, “
    Take E-FGC33621 for example. You have it in Chania, Crete, a basal clade in Bulgaria, and a very deep rooted Albanian clan that belongs to it, and north west euros also. Nothing at all proto-greek about it:”.

    Yeah, and this line appears to be Hallstatt in origin, and one example doesn’t translate to a majority as you seem to be claiming throughout these comments.
    Theres no such language as "hallstatt", the non-greek lineages were either illyrian or celtic if you are calling them "hallstatt" since Illyrians also interacted with Hallstatt.


    Arguing for celtic is highly improbable given distribution of the parent clades to fgc3362.
    This thread is about myceneans, and this current discussion is the evidence that EV13 wasnt part of Myceneaens. That was just one example from public results on the Em35 project. Yfull also has more young clades in greece.

    You dont seem to understand that lines have parent clades, for which we have plenty of non-greek samples to map origins.


    Enough damage control.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    2200ybp with the other 4 parallel branches that are without a doubt predominantly Slavic, that most certainly migrated to the Balkans during early Middle Ages. What are the chances for this branch to have migrated in a different period? I would say zero.
    Right now there is zero proof that Y18331 came to Greece as part of the Slavic migrations. The Dinaric branches formed a long time before the Slavic migrations. Without evidence, who is to say that they all migrated to Greece at the same time? Were there not previous northern invasions of Greece, like the Goths? Where are the Balkan Slavs and even East European Slavs with Y18331 to back it up? There are none yet.

    More evidence than just the Mycenaean study supports that modern Greeks have genetic continuity with the earlier Greeks. Greeks from the Peloponnese are shown to be close to and overlap a bit with Sicilians, for example. Another clue is the language. How could there have been Greek speakers if there were no Greeks around? Were other ethnic groups that insecure to give up their language and religion and become Greek with no other Greeks around to teach or compel them?

    Its like Alexander the Great and Macedonians. If they were not Greek, why did they spread around the Greek language and culture? Were they ashamed of their own language—people as bold as the world-conquering Alexander?

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    Just accept it and be done with it, that your ancestors were Slavic speaking. They mostly likely penetrated Greece early on as a compact tribe.


    And stop mentioning autosomal DNA comparisons and the conclusion authors brought related to Mycenaeans. Greeks from Peloponnesus are a mixed bunch. Third of Peloponnesus was Albanian speaking to begin with, without even mentioning the sea of Slavs that assimilated there. All is clear when one observes the y linages.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    “Just accept it and be done with it, that your ancestors were Slavic speaking. They mostly likely penetrated Greece early on as a compact tribe.”

    A compact tribe? The Y18331 Greeks are found throughout Greece, north, west and south. I’m just going with the evidence. Of course Slavs came to Greece, but the Y18331 line, one of the major branches, has no East European or Balkan Slavs in it. Greece was a big area to be completely swamped by Slavs. Who did the Slavs interact with anyway, to have been made Greek?

    Stop using autosomal genetic evidence by major academic researchers and start believing a blog commenter? Lol!!! That’s funny. No thanks, I’ll stick with scientific evidence, like this very study and the Peloponnesian one that shows closeness to Cretans and Sicilians.

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