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Thread: Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    You still have Y23115 (formed 2100ybp) in Eastern Europe besides the parallel subclades, plus the Chuvash under A7134, as the evidence you’re looking for. It doesn’t matter how they identify today. It’s all there staring at you, you just have to be blind not to see it.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    “You still have Y23115 (formed 2100ybp) in Eastern Europe besides the parallel subclades”

    Every one of them is a Jewish male. None of them are non-Jewish Slavs. I already mentioned the Chuvash man. There are many Ashkenazi East European Jews who either are or suspected to be in Y18331 and zero non-Jews. Jews are not native to East Europe but came from somewhere else. That might hold a key to where and when the Greeks and Jews had a common ancestor.

    “It doesn’t matter how they identify today.”

    And you know what they were before, how? They all had a mass conversion to Judaism but there are zero non-Jewish Slavs? There are no East European Slavs or Balkan Slavs in Y18331 as of now. If and when that changes, that will be the evidence.

    Back to the topic of this thread:

    In another thread, someone mentioned that the Crete Armenoi sample in this paper falls within or near the Peloponnese cluster. Interesting.






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    You write, "@Demetrios R-M269 shows pretty fluctuations in Greece (btw a large chunk of it is R-BY611).".
    I know that most of R-M269 in Greece is R-Z2103, but are you certain about R-BY611?


    You write, "E-V13 is not that evenly spread either.".

    I didn't write evenly, but broadly prevalent. For example, look at the general frequencies of E1b1b throughout Greece, of which E-V13 represents the vast majority.
    North Greece (Macedonia & Thrace): 20.5%
    Central Greece (Thessaly, Epirus, Aetolia-Acarnania, Evrytania & Phthiotis): 29.5%
    South Greece (Peloponnese, Attica & Athens): 27%
    Crete: 11%
    Aegean Islands: 22%
    With the exception of Crete (650,000 Greeks out of 11,000,000), all the rest are above 20%. Low frequencies in Crete, could be due to many early historical reasons.

    You write, "Anyway, I do am not saying we can refute all R-M269 branches as possible proto-Greek Y-DNA lines. My point is, differences in frequency are not very indicative. Diversity is much more important.".

    I wasn't necessarily referring to proto-Greek lines in the previous comment, when i wrote about "broadly prevalent". As for R-Z2103, some was in Greece even before the proto-Greek arrival. Look at R-KMS67 for example. It was most probably due to an early IE migration.

    You write, "I opened a new thread on the proto-Albanian & proto-Romanian discussion, so this one can get back to the intended topic.".

    Thanks mate, but to be honest i am not looking to expand on the subject. After all, i only follow two threads for a reason.

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    You write, "Theres no such language as "hallstatt", the non-greek lineages were either illyrian or celtic if you are calling them "hallstatt" since Illyrians also interacted with Hallstatt.".
    Sure there is a Hallstatt language, it's called Celtic. Hence why i wrote "And most of these non-proto-Greek E-V13 (3000 ybp) lines appear to be Hallstatt or Celtic in origin, and in any case, there are no sources to establish whether they are the majority of the lines or not.". The origin was Celtic, and the distribution of the aforementioned line validates that, in addition to not being found in the western Balkans. Again, Illyrians only begin appearing archaeologically in the 7th century BCE, centuries after this line.

    You write, "
    Arguing for celtic is highly improbable given distribution of the parent clades to fgc3362.".
    The only other explanation i can give for this seemingly insignificant Greek line is that it has a Thracian origin which when Celtic culture expanded SE and reached Thrace, assimilated individuals could have moved back NW. Eventually, that's how much Celtic culture expanded.

    As for reaching Crete, it can be a remnant of the Frankokratia.


    You write, "
    This thread is about myceneans, and this current discussion is the evidence that EV13 wasnt part of Myceneaens. That was just one example from public results on the Em35 project. Yfull also has more young clades in greece.
    You dont seem to understand that lines have parent clades, for which we have plenty of non-greek samples to map origins.".
    And how do you come to such conclusions? The only actual evidence that we have on Mycenaeans is a single sample which shows J2a1. One sample is certainly not much from a statistical point of view. Especially when you consider that it is very probably from a pre-Greek line, since 2/3 of the Minoan samples also had J2a1. Anything else you might write is conjecture, and rather false conjecture. For example, you write that i don't seem to understand about parent clades? E-BY3880's parent clade, namely E-CTS1273 shows that it originated north of the Caucasus, which is where proto-Greek originated from, but somehow E-BY3880 must be anything except proto-Greek. Yeah right. And the thing is you know very well that you cannot call it Celtic, Illyrian, Thracian, or whatever, since these groups only emerged about a millennium later. Furthermore, E-BY3880 formed only 100 years after E-CTS1273, meaning 4500 ybp, with a TMRCA of 4300 ybp. The only other rational name you can give it is pre-proto-Greek, which eventually became proto-Greek. So, from any scope you might view it, it is a proto-Greek line. The same is true for E-Y37092 with a TMRCA of 4100 ybp. Mycenaeans didn't emerge until 1650 BCE.

    You write, "
    Enough damage control.".
    Maybe you should go and answer how you came to the conclusion that Satem is more conservative than Centum. The question @tyuiopman addressed to you a wee
    k ago. I would also like to know.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    “You still have Y23115 (formed 2100ybp) in Eastern Europe besides the parallel subclades”

    Every one of them is a Jewish male. None of them are non-Jewish Slavs. I already mentioned the Chuvash man. There are many Ashkenazi East European Jews who either are or suspected to be in Y18331 and zero non-Jews. Jews are not native to East Europe but came from somewhere else. That might hold a key to where and when the Greeks and Jews had a common ancestor.

    “It doesn’t matter how they identify today.”

    And you know what they were before, how? They all had a mass conversion to Judaism but there are zero non-Jewish Slavs? There are no East European Slavs or Balkan Slavs in Y18331 as of now. If and when that changes, that will be the evidence.

    Back to the topic of this thread:

    In another thread, someone mentioned that the Crete Armenoi sample in this paper falls within or near the Peloponnese cluster. Interesting.





    Jewish from Slavic countries, buddy. From Poland, Belarus etc. Obviously locals that converted to Judaism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "Theres no such language as "hallstatt", the non-greek lineages were either illyrian or celtic if you are calling them "hallstatt" since Illyrians also interacted with Hallstatt.".
    Sure there is a Hallstatt language, it's called Celtic. Hence why i wrote "And most of these non-proto-Greek E-V13 (3000 ybp) lines appear to be Hallstatt or Celtic in origin, and in any case, there are no sources to establish whether they are the majority of the lines or not.". The origin was Celtic, and the distribution of the aforementioned line validates that, in addition to not being found in the western Balkans. Again, Illyrians only begin appearing archaeologically in the 7th century BCE, centuries after this line.

    You write, "
    Arguing for celtic is highly improbable given distribution of the parent clades to fgc3362.".
    The only other explanation i can give for this seemingly insignificant Greek line is that it has a Thracian origin which when Celtic culture expanded SE and reached Thrace, assimilated individuals could have moved back NW. Eventually, that's how much Celtic culture expanded.

    As for reaching Crete, it can be a remnant of the Frankokratia.


    You write, "
    This thread is about myceneans, and this current discussion is the evidence that EV13 wasnt part of Myceneaens. That was just one example from public results on the Em35 project. Yfull also has more young clades in greece.
    You dont seem to understand that lines have parent clades, for which we have plenty of non-greek samples to map origins.".
    And how do you come to such conclusions? The only actual evidence that we have on Mycenaeans is a single sample which shows J2a1. One sample is certainly not much from a statistical point of view. Especially when you consider that it is very probably from a pre-Greek line, since 2/3 of the Minoan samples also had J2a1. Anything else you might write is conjecture, and rather false conjecture. For example, you write that i don't seem to understand about parent clades? E-BY3880's parent clade, namely E-CTS1273 shows that it originated north of the Caucasus, which is where proto-Greek originated from, but somehow E-BY3880 must be anything except proto-Greek. Yeah right. And the thing is you know very well that you cannot call it Celtic, Illyrian, Thracian, or whatever, since these groups only emerged about a millennium later. Furthermore, E-BY3880 formed only 100 years after E-CTS1273, meaning 4500 ybp, with a TMRCA of 4300 ybp. The only other rational name you can give it is pre-proto-Greek, which eventually became proto-Greek. So, from any scope you might view it, it is a proto-Greek line. The same is true for E-Y37092 with a TMRCA of 4100 ybp. Mycenaeans didn't emerge until 1650 BCE.

    You write, "
    Enough damage control.".
    Maybe you should go and answer how you came to the conclusion that Satem is more conservative than Centum. The question @tyuiopman addressed to you a wee
    k ago. I would also like to know.
    illyrians where in noricum circa 1600BC .......they eventually formed Halstatt with the invading celts circa 1000BC


    Plus , there are no Illyrians..........it is a geographical expression......like scandinavian
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    illyrians where in noricum circa 1600BC .......they eventually formed Halstatt with the invading celts circa 1000BC


    Plus , there are no Illyrians..........it is a geographical expression......like scandinavian
    Illyrians emerge as an ethnic group with a distinct culture and art form, during the 7th century BCE, under influence from the Hallstatt culture in the north. Even if we use the term "Illyrian" as a geographic designation though, Noricum still falls outside its boundaries. Unless i misunderstood your point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post

    Back to the topic of this thread:

    In another thread, someone mentioned that the Crete Armenoi sample in this paper falls within or near the Peloponnese cluster. Interesting.
    Indeed, the Crete_Armenoi sample (1370-1340 BCE) appears to be in line with the Peloponnesian cluster. It is actually a female sample, although her mtDNA, namely U5a1 was already present in Crete from way earlier. As a matter of fact, one of the Minoan_Lasithi (2000-1700 BCE) female samples also had it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "@Demetrios R-M269 shows pretty fluctuations in Greece (btw a large chunk of it is R-BY611).".
    I know that most of R-M269 in Greece is R-Z2103, but are you certain about R-BY611?


    You write, "E-V13 is not that evenly spread either.".

    I didn't write evenly, but broadly prevalent. For example, look at the general frequencies of E1b1b throughout Greece, of which E-V13 represents the vast majority.
    North Greece (Macedonia & Thrace): 20.5%
    Central Greece (Thessaly, Epirus, Aetolia-Acarnania, Evrytania & Phthiotis): 29.5%
    South Greece (Peloponnese, Attica & Athens): 27%
    Crete: 11%
    Aegean Islands: 22%
    With the exception of Crete (650,000 Greeks out of 11,000,000), all the rest are above 20%. Low frequencies in Crete, could be due to many early historical reasons.

    You write, "Anyway, I do am not saying we can refute all R-M269 branches as possible proto-Greek Y-DNA lines. My point is, differences in frequency are not very indicative. Diversity is much more important.".

    I wasn't necessarily referring to proto-Greek lines in the previous comment, when i wrote about "broadly prevalent". As for R-Z2103, some was in Greece even before the proto-Greek arrival. Look at R-KMS67 for example. It was most probably due to an early IE migration.

    You write, "I opened a new thread on the proto-Albanian & proto-Romanian discussion, so this one can get back to the intended topic.".

    Thanks mate, but to be honest i am not looking to expand on the subject. After all, i only follow two threads for a reason.
    Which do you think are the haplogroups in general that existed in ancient Greece?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "@Demetrios R-M269 shows pretty fluctuations in Greece (btw a large chunk of it is R-BY611).".
    I know that most of R-M269 in Greece is R-Z2103, but are you certain about R-BY611?
    Certain. It peaks in areas with a history of Albanian populations: Peloponnese, Attica, West Macedonia, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    I wasn't necessarily referring to proto-Greek lines in the previous comment, when i wrote about "broadly prevalent". As for R-Z2103, some was in Greece even before the proto-Greek arrival. Look at R-KMS67 for example. It was most probably due to an early IE migration.
    Maybe, but you have to look at how old these clusters are and estimate when and where the mrca lived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Indeed, the Crete_Armenoi sample (1370-1340 BCE) appears to be in line with the Peloponnesian cluster. It is actually a female sample, although her mtDNA, namely U5a1 was already present in Crete from way earlier. As a matter of fact, one of the Minoan_Lasithi (2000-1700 BCE) female samples also had it.
    Here are data from an earlier study on the Peloponnese, Crete and Sicily that seem to corroborate this study. The earlier study argues for a maritime Neolithic colonization of Europe, from the Dodecanese and Crete to the Peloponnese and the through the Balkans. The Peloponnesians are from central Arcadia, an area of Medieval Slavic colonization. But the area was reclaimed by the Byzantines early on and has probably been Greek-speaking for a long time.

    Attachment 11434Attachment 11433Attachment 11435

    The Peloponnesians (Arcadians), Southeast Laconians and Sicilians cluster together, near the Cretans and Dodecanese, appearing to show the migration movement of Neolithic people. This implies a long genetic continuity, giving support to the Mycenaean study.

    The Peloponnesian study that came later showed little direct Slavic input, because the Slavs may have been mixed themselves with Balkan people and early Byzantine reconquest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    Which do you think are the haplogroups in general that existed in ancient Greece?
    Well, that is a very general question, and actually more complicated than some people like to think. Even if we just take the period of what has been academically termed "ancient Greece", we are essentially referring to a period spanning more or less 1500 years. Dawning with the beginning of the Greek Dark Ages (11th-9th centuries BCE) and setting with the persecution of pagans in the late Roman Empire during the 4th-6th centuries CE, which is a whole subject of its own. As a sidenote, pockets of pagans never ceazed to exist. Let me bring to your attention for example that Greece wasn't completely Christianized until the 12th century CE, with the last official pagans being located in Mani, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_Peninsula#Religion. And even then, crypto-paganism continued as can be seen in the works of Gemistus Pletho and others, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemistus_Pletho.

    Back to the haplogroups though. Haplogroups are something very general. I could simply give you the answer that most if not all of the haplogroups contemporarily present in modern Greece, were in varying frequencies also present in Greece during the broad period of "ancient Greece". If we really want to get an accurate perspective though, we would need to study all the different subclades or lines that are present in Greece, and determine when each was introduced. This is something that likewise requires its own thread, and personally i lack the time to focus on the study of something like this, especially when you consider that we are lacking sources for each subclade's frequency in the broader population. The short answer i can give you, is that the subclades for most of the pre-Greek haplogroups (such as G2a, J2a, J1, T1a, and some I2a), proto-Greek (such as some E-V13, R1b-M269, and R1a - in general i would focus on the Catacomb culture,
    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/catacomb_culture.shtml), and post-Bronze-Age collapse and ancient Greek introductions, can all be considered as present in ancient Greece, and part of the ancient Greeks. Therefore, an answer really depends on many variables, and cannot simply be compartmentalized. There are subclades of the aforementioned ancient Greek haplogroups that entered Greece during the Medieval and Modern periods as well. For example, it is certain that much of I2a and R1a in Greece has a Slavic origin.

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    @Ownstyler
    Yo
    u write, "Certain. It peaks in areas with a history of Albanian populations: Peloponnese, Attica, West Macedonia, etc.".Sure mate, but i ask whether we have any source of its frequency in the broader Greek population. The descendants of Arvanites in Greece are approximately 200,000, and were mostly concentrated in Attica, Corinth, and Argolis, not really West Macedonia (Greek administrative region). And besides, if you check at the bottom of the http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ source that i shared, the certainly extremely small sample-size (in other words, we need many more samples) of 14, shows no R1b-M269 at all. Of course there was some R1b-BY611 introduction from Albanians, but it doesn't appear to be much.

    You write, "
    Maybe, but you have to look at how old these clusters are and estimate when and where the mrca lived.".
    Certainly, that's why i don't even consider it as a proto-Greek subclade, but most probably due to an earlier IE migration that eventually also got assimilated. A TMRCA of 5200 ybp is way too early in my perspective.

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    @Ralphie Boy
    You write, "
    Here are data from an earlier study on the Peloponnese, Crete and Sicily that seem to corroborate this study. The earlier study argues for a maritime Neolithic colonization of Europe, from the Dodecanese and Crete to the Peloponnese and the through the Balkans. The Peloponnesians are from central Arcadia, an area of Medieval Slavic colonization. But the area was reclaimed by the Byzantines early on and has probably been Greek-speaking for a long time.

    Attachment 11434Attachment 11433Attachment 11435".
    Don't really understand which study you refer to mate. Also, the attachments don't show (i also struggle with this when i attach images, hence why i immediately edit the comment by deleting the attachment and re-uploading it, after which it shows). I suspect you mean this one, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718. If so, i have also shared this paper in the past of this thread.

    You write, "The Peloponnesians (Arcadians), Southeast Laconians and Sicilians cluster together, near the Cretans and Dodecanese, appearing to show the migration movement of Neolithic people. This implies a long genetic continuity, giving support to the Mycenaean study.".
    I see that many of the Peloponnesians are very close to Sicilians, although south-east Laconians seem to be the furthest of the bunch. It is mostly the western Peloponnesians that seem to be clustering with them. Maybe you refer to another study and not the one i aforementioned, or maybe i don't recall accurately.

    You write, "The Peloponnesian study that came later showed little direct Slavic input, because the Slavs may have been mixed themselves with Balkan people and early Byzantine reconquest.".
    Sure, it appears to have been between 0.2%-14.4% from an autosomal perspective, depending on the region. The least Slavic influence is seen in South Tsakonia and Deep Mani, namely 0.2%-1%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "Theres no such language as "hallstatt", the non-greek lineages were either illyrian or celtic if you are calling them "hallstatt" since Illyrians also interacted with Hallstatt.".
    Sure there is a Hallstatt language, it's called Celtic. Hence why i wrote "And most of these non-proto-Greek E-V13 (3000 ybp) lines appear to be Hallstatt or Celtic in origin, and in any case, there are no sources to establish whether they are the majority of the lines or not.". The origin was Celtic, and the distribution of the aforementioned line validates that, in addition to not being found in the western Balkans. Again, Illyrians only begin appearing archaeologically in the 7th century BCE, centuries after this line.

    You write, "
    Arguing for celtic is highly improbable given distribution of the parent clades to fgc3362.".
    The only other explanation i can give for this seemingly insignificant Greek line is that it has a Thracian origin which when Celtic culture expanded SE and reached Thrace, assimilated individuals could have moved back NW. Eventually, that's how much Celtic culture expanded.

    As for reaching Crete, it can be a remnant of the Frankokratia.


    You write, "
    This thread is about myceneans, and this current discussion is the evidence that EV13 wasnt part of Myceneaens. That was just one example from public results on the Em35 project. Yfull also has more young clades in greece.
    You dont seem to understand that lines have parent clades, for which we have plenty of non-greek samples to map origins.".
    And how do you come to such conclusions? The only actual evidence that we have on Mycenaeans is a single sample which shows J2a1. One sample is certainly not much from a statistical point of view. Especially when you consider that it is very probably from a pre-Greek line, since 2/3 of the Minoan samples also had J2a1. Anything else you might write is conjecture, and rather false conjecture. For example, you write that i don't seem to understand about parent clades? E-BY3880's parent clade, namely E-CTS1273 shows that it originated north of the Caucasus, which is where proto-Greek originated from, but somehow E-BY3880 must be anything except proto-Greek. Yeah right. And the thing is you know very well that you cannot call it Celtic, Illyrian, Thracian, or whatever, since these groups only emerged about a millennium later. Furthermore, E-BY3880 formed only 100 years after E-CTS1273, meaning 4500 ybp, with a TMRCA of 4300 ybp. The only other rational name you can give it is pre-proto-Greek, which eventually became proto-Greek. So, from any scope you might view it, it is a proto-Greek line. The same is true for E-Y37092 with a TMRCA of 4100 ybp. Mycenaeans didn't emerge until 1650 BCE.

    You write, "
    Enough damage control.".
    Maybe you should go and answer how you came to the conclusion that Satem is more conservative than Centum. The question @tyuiopman addressed to you a wee
    k ago. I would also like to know.
    E-CTS1273 didn't originate in the Caucasus. The fact that CTS1273* showed up in a modern day sample from Ossetia doesn't mean much, it just means that there was some early migration there. CTS1273* has also shown up in the Balkans (an Albanian from Eastern Albania is one of them for example). CTS1273 has highest diversity in Europe, around the Balkans, plus it's brother clade Y30977 has a clear origin in the Balkans.

    Evidence so far suggests that many V13 clades in Greece are of non-Hellenic origin based on TMRCA and basal clades. Their TMRCAs (~3,000ybp) make it unlikely that they were present in the Proto-Greeks. Sure some clades could be Proto-Greek or may have arrived very early on. So far there aren't any Greeks that are BY3880*, that Greek sample from the Yfull tree seems to be Z5018*.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    About the hypothesis that E-V13 in Greece arrived in Greece approx. 3000 years ago. Isn't E-V13 prevalent in Cypriots as well? The Achaean Greeks there settled mostly between 1400 BC to 1200 BC. So this hints that E-V13 was present in Greek populations much earlier.

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    @Kelmendasi
    You write, "
    E-CTS1273 didn't originate in the Caucasus. The fact that CTS1273* showed up in a modern day sample from Ossetia doesn't mean much, it just means that there was some early migration there. CTS1273* has also shown up in the Balkans (an Albanian from Eastern Albania is one of them for example). CTS1273 has highest diversity in Europe, around the Balkans, plus it's brother clade Y30977 has a clear origin in the Balkans.".
    E-CTS1273 being present in Ossetia clearly suggests that it spread from there. It also correlates with the widespread hypothesis that proto-Greek must have come from Catacomb culture, which during 2500 BCE (E-CTS1273's TMRCA) also encompassed Ossetia. If you don't want to call it pre-proto-Greek or even proto-Greek, i really don't have a problem. You may even call it a palaeo-Balkan IE line. My point is that it must have eventually been one of the proto-Greek lines.

    CTS1273* hasn't shown up in the Balkans. Unless i am missing something, the only two that have is id:YF15944 from Ossetia and id:ERS1789480, who from a thread that you in fact also participated, another member wrote he is an Ashkenazi Jew. If he is indeed an Ashkenazi Jew that has it, he can very well be a descendant of a Khazar (Jewish) Caucasian. If by Albanian from Eastern Albania you refer to the so-called Skrapar sample, he was not CTS1273*, but E-FT12534 which formed 2600 ybp with a TMRCA of likewise 2600 ybp.


    Having the highest diversity in Europe is only natural. Why wouldn't it?

    I don't see how it's sister clade, namely E-Y30977, has a clear origin in the Balkans. You are obviously referring to the daughter of E-Y30977, namely E-Y37092 which seems to have reached the Balkans 4100 ybp, namely 500 years after E-Y30977 formed.

    You write, "Evidence so far suggests that many V13 clades in Greece are of non-Hellenic origin based on TMRCA and basal clades. Their TMRCAs (~3,000ybp) make it unlikely that they were present in the Proto-Greeks. Sure some clades could be Proto-Greek or may have arrived very early on. So far there aren't any Greeks that are BY3880*, that Greek sample from the Yfull tree seems to be Z5018*.".
    Again, please look at the two aforementioned (E-BY3880, E-Y37092) subclades more carefully. They seem to have been part of the proto-Greeks. Also, in regards to E-BY3880, the fact that both a Greek and a Bulgarian are there, make it appear as an originally Balkan subclade. Furthermore, the Italian E-BY3880* sample, is from Messina, which was one of the largest Greek colonies in Sicily, and very likely also has Greek origin via its Greek colonists from Chalcis (despite the name the colony wasn't founded by Messenians, and only later acquired it).

    As for the E-Y150909a, E-Z17264, and E-PH1173, they indeed seem to have been of Celtic origin, and of non-proto-Greek origin. In any case, as you see i don't have a problem admitting if a subclade appears to not have a proto-Greek origin. After all, they are surely ancient Greek, namely ancient Greeks also inherited them, despite of not having an original proto-Greek origin.

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    “Don't really understand which study you refer to mate. Also, the attachments don't show (i also struggle with this when i attach images, hence why i immediately edit the comment by deleting the attachment and re-uploading it, after which it shows). I suspect you mean this one, https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718. If so, i have also shared this paper in the past of this thread.”

    Sorry for not including the link. It’s a study arguing for a maritime Neolithic colonization of Europe, moving from the Aegean and Mediterranean on northward through the Greek mainland and then further north. This study shows the apparent clustering of two modern Peloponnesian Greek populations with Sicilians, and closeness to modern Crete and Dodecanese, in one of the maps.

    https://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211

    The late population genetics pioneer L.L. Cavalli-Sforza I think wrote that earlier migrations were the most important, because of less population density. The more recent migrations, like in Medieval times, had less impact because of greater population density of indigenous people. His study found the stronger Neolithic component in the southeast Mediterranean, just like these newer studies, where newer migrations added to but didn’t replace the older genes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    The descendants of Arvanites in Greece are approximately 200,000, and were mostly concentrated in Attica, Corinth, and Argolis, not really West Macedonia (Greek administrative region).
    I said "history of Albanian populations", which inludes Arvanites, but also other regions. Macedonia and its western regions had many different ethnic groups until the early 20th century, including Albanians (ex: in Loechovo, Drosopigi/Belkameni, Flampouro/Nevogan, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @Ownstyler You write, "Certain. It peaks in areas with a history of Albanian populations: Peloponnese, Attica, West Macedonia, etc.".Sure mate, but i ask whether we have any source of its frequency in the broader Greek population... ...And besides, if you check at the bottom of the http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/ source that i shared, the certainly extremely small sample-size (in other words, we need many more samples) of 14, shows no R1b-M269 at all. Of course there was some R1b-BY611 introduction from Albanians, but it doesn't appear to be much.
    It is actually not that low. In Bosch 2006, Katsaloulis 2013, Robino 2004, Parreira 2002 & Kovatsi 2013, R1b-BY611 is ~2% in Greece (Albanians have 10-15%), and a bit higher in the areas I mentioned. It is only absent in the islands.

    From commercial results, I know of at least 8-9 of BY611 results from the Peloponnese, a few in Attica and in West Macedonia (there is a relatively high percentage all around the Ohrid and Prespa Lakes), and then scattered results from the rest of continental Greece + 1 Greek from Corfu and 1 Arvanite from Hydra. There are many more I cannot place regionally. Again, I have not noticed any in the islands.

    On YHRD, a modal R-BY611 is the 4th most common haplotype among >1000 results in Greece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You write, "Maybe, but you have to look at how old these clusters are and estimate when and where the mrca lived.". Certainly, that's why i don't even consider it as a proto-Greek subclade, but most probably due to an earlier IE migration that eventually also got assimilated. A TMRCA of 5200 ybp is way too early in my perspective.
    I meant when the mrca of a possible Greek cluster there. The current mrca of the clade includes all over Europe and even the Middle East. If you don't know of a cluster dominated by Greeks within this branch, you cannot say if this line reached Greece 5200, 3000, or 200 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Also, in regards to E-BY3880, the fact that both a Greek and a Bulgarian are there, make it appear as an originally Balkan subclade.
    The Greek and Bulgarian samples currently under E-BY3880 have no calls for two important subclades below: E-Z5017 and E-Z5018. They might very well fall into one of those two. Only the Italian sample is certainly E-VBY3880*.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    @Kelmendasi
    You write, "
    E-CTS1273 didn't originate in the Caucasus. The fact that CTS1273* showed up in a modern day sample from Ossetia doesn't mean much, it just means that there was some early migration there. CTS1273* has also shown up in the Balkans (an Albanian from Eastern Albania is one of them for example). CTS1273 has highest diversity in Europe, around the Balkans, plus it's brother clade Y30977 has a clear origin in the Balkans.".
    E-CTS1273 being present in Ossetia clearly suggests that it spread from there. It also correlates with the widespread hypothesis that proto-Greek must have come from Catacomb culture, which during 2500 BCE (E-CTS1273's TMRCA) also encompassed Ossetia. If you don't want to call it pre-proto-Greek or even proto-Greek, i really don't have a problem. You may even call it a palaeo-Balkan IE line. My point is that it must have eventually been one of the proto-Greek lines.

    CTS1273* hasn't shown up in the Balkans. Unless i am missing something, the only two that have is id:YF15944 from Ossetia and id:ERS1789480, who from a thread that you in fact also participated, another member wrote he is an Ashkenazi Jew. If he is indeed an Ashkenazi Jew that has it, he can very well be a descendant of a Khazar (Jewish) Caucasian. If by Albanian from Eastern Albania you refer to the so-called Skrapar sample, he was not CTS1273*, but E-FT12534 which formed 2600 ybp with a TMRCA of likewise 2600 ybp.


    Having the highest diversity in Europe is only natural. Why wouldn't it?

    I don't see how it's sister clade, namely E-Y30977, has a clear origin in the Balkans. You are obviously referring to the daughter of E-Y30977, namely E-Y37092 which seems to have reached the Balkans 4100 ybp, namely 500 years after E-Y30977 formed.

    You write, "Evidence so far suggests that many V13 clades in Greece are of non-Hellenic origin based on TMRCA and basal clades. Their TMRCAs (~3,000ybp) make it unlikely that they were present in the Proto-Greeks. Sure some clades could be Proto-Greek or may have arrived very early on. So far there aren't any Greeks that are BY3880*, that Greek sample from the Yfull tree seems to be Z5018*.".
    Again, please look at the two aforementioned (E-BY3880, E-Y37092) subclades more carefully. They seem to have been part of the proto-Greeks. Also, in regards to E-BY3880, the fact that both a Greek and a Bulgarian are there, make it appear as an originally Balkan subclade. Furthermore, the Italian E-BY3880* sample, is from Messina, which was one of the largest Greek colonies in Sicily, and very likely also has Greek origin via its Greek colonists from Chalcis (despite the name the colony wasn't founded by Messenians, and only later acquired it).

    As for the E-Y150909a, E-Z17264, and E-PH1173, they indeed seem to have been of Celtic origin, and of non-proto-Greek origin. In any case, as you see i don't have a problem admitting if a subclade appears to not have a proto-Greek origin. After all, they are surely ancient Greek, namely ancient Greeks also inherited them, despite of not having an original proto-Greek origin.
    Nope it doesn't, by this logic it should've expanded also from Albania. CTS1273* has shown up in the Balkans, the result I'm referring to is my maternal uncle, they are from the Dibra-Librazhd area. Not every CTS1273* sample has been uploaded to Yfull. The Jewish sample isn't Ashkenazi iirc, he is from Turkey, but it's highly likely that his paternal side came from Europe. Y-DNA has shown that the Khazars have nothing to do with modern day Ashkenazis.

    The fact that CTS1273 has little to no diversity in the Caucasus or surrounding areas make it extremely unlikely for it to have origin there, the most likely scenario is that CTS1273 originated in the Balkans but a branch migrated to the Eastern European steppe area, where it was assimilated.

    Y30977 does have pretty clear origin in the Balkans. It's most diverse in the Western Balkans, most frequent in the Balkans and it's basal clades show up most in the Balkans as well. Unlike, CTS1273, Y30977 doesn't seem to have been picked up by IE speakers, it remained in the Balkans for longer.

    You need to specify which clades you're referring to, the BY3880 guy is actually Z5018* it's just that his analysis hasn't finished. Z5018 has a TMRCA of ~3,700ybp and seems to be most diverse in areas north of Greece. As for Y37092, this branch remained in the Western Balkans so it's possible that Proto-Greeks picked it up when they arrived in the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    The Greek and Bulgarian samples currently under E-BY3880 have no calls for two important subclades below: E-Z5017 and E-Z5018. They might very well fall into one of those two. Only the Italian sample is certainly E-VBY3880*.
    There is also a Macedonian sample that is BY3880*, though he isn't on Yfull. He's tested via the Serb project and is an ethnic Serb from Jegunovtse, with origin from Komogllave, Kosovo.

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    Greek BY3880* is an ethnic Bulgarian and he's Z5018+ at FTDNA in cluster with a Czech.

    If talking about E-V13 among Greeks, well there are only 3 ethnic Greeks at YFull, 1 being from a study. There are some additional people at FTDNA as well as ability to prpedict some Greeks from studies who fall into already well established clusters.

    Probably the most common individual clade is E-Z17264. And this one is diverse at basal level in Greeks. YF15987 Greek is in a cluster with another Greek while being 23/111. Bulgarian YF16967 belongs to a very widespread cluster present in many Greeks, but also some Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, Romanians, Hungarians. In a study of Greek Macedonia two 439=9 samples lacked one important mutation for this cluster possibly indicating it's original base might be Greek Macedonia. However this clade must have arrived to Greece from the North.

    It seems alot of Greek V13's are LBA/EIA arrivals, so connected with Mycenean collapse. There are some cultures such as Gârla Mare from SW Romania that according to some Russian archaeologists was proto-Dorian, and certain clades under E-Y3183 seem to fit that pattern, as might L241. And these are also sister clades. Many have connected central European R1b's to Dorians, in particular high percentage in areas of Crete. These belong to R-Y4354 subclade, they have no relation to Bulgarian nor they have any close relation to Ugarak clan from Eastern Herzegovina belonging to this clade. There is also one Romanian from a study who is R-Y4354 and he too is very isolated, but he is from Dolj which is close to Gârla Mare. But it makes no sense phylogenetically that an R1b L51 would speak the Greek language, these were the Urnfield people speaking language related to Celto-Italic who picked up Dorian from someone else, who might have been that? I'm thinking L241 and some clades under it's sister clade Y3183. There is also some presence of L584 in both Greeks and Romania who should be related to Phrygians who in turn are supposed to be related to Greeks.

    There is already a lot of these isolated R-U152 clades in the Western Balkans who are largely surely connected to Urnfield Illyrian movement. Probably they were especially common among Pannonian Illyrians where they met and assimilated some more Western younger V13 clades that also have cousins who ended up in Greece in LBA/EIA such as certain L241, CTS9320's..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Nope it doesn't, by this logic it should've expanded also from Albania. CTS1273* has shown up in the Balkans, the result I'm referring to is my maternal uncle, they are from the Dibra-Librazhd area. Not every CTS1273* sample has been uploaded to Yfull. The Jewish sample isn't Ashkenazi iirc, he is from Turkey, but it's highly likely that his paternal side came from Europe. Y-DNA has shown that the Khazars have nothing to do with modern day Ashkenazis.
    Was he tested for BY3880? Guess not. I khow he is CTS5856*, from an FTDNA Pack where they didn't test BY3880 so chances are very high he is actually BY3880*. So I have problem with you using him as an example of CTS1273*, BY3880-, in the same line with Ossetian cluster and Ashkenazi.

    Recently there is a new Tatar YF65266 who is a very basal S7461 which makes stronger case for CTS1273 being somewhere in vicinity of Pontic steppe at the time of expansion.

    Y30977 doesn't quite fit there, however there is some presence of E-Y30977 in Moldavia. It seems from Moldavian study E-BY14150 and E-Y81468 are present there. E-BY14150 should be there for some time because there are some others in vicinity who have more STR's and no connection to BY14150 found in Balkans, but they might have arrived from the South. The likely E-Y81468 doesn't have enough STR's to get an idea how distant he is to others.

    Y30977 does fit into Cetina culture very well. This was at least strongly partially Indoeuropeanized culture. And ofc in Neolithic times V13 only can fit in Dalmatian Cardial pottery where L618 was found (or maybe in Trypillia where M78 was found). And besides even if there was no genetics presence of some E-M78 in Neolithic there could be spotted. Do you know some neolithic Dalmatian Impresso (and no other European Neolithic culture) burial practices according to Yugoslav archaeologists had the only known parallels in Maasai people? They happen to have E-M78.
    "The authors observed haplogroup E1b1b in 50% of the studied Maasai", might be something E-M35 pastoralists brought there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Right now there is zero proof that Y18331 came to Greece as part of the Slavic migrations. The Dinaric branches formed a long time before the Slavic migrations. Without evidence, who is to say that they all migrated to Greece at the same time? Were there not previous northern invasions of Greece, like the Goths? Where are the Balkan Slavs and even East European Slavs with Y18331 to back it up? There are none yet.
    The working hypothesis is that Y18331 are descendants of Bastarnae expedition as allies of Philip of Macedon in 179 BC. They did arrive to Thrace/Dardania, likely some were subsequently settled by Greeks. Chuvash and Jews might descend of Crimean Greeks. It seems thus far Y18331 did not take part in ethnogeneis of Slavs.
    Bastarnae are also an ideal explanation why I-Y3120 is Eastern while there is I-CTS10228* in a French Alsace, and all upstream clades are NW European. Bastarnae migration is well attested archeologically as is their participation in Slavic ethnogenesis.

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    I'm afraid realistic expansion of E-V13 is not going to favor either either Hellenic nor Albanian fixation on Illyrians (largely inherited from Enver Hohxa similar to Romanian Dacian fixation inherited from Ceausescu era). Cetina culture migrated to Central Balkans, while it basically dissapeared in its original territory without any inheritors. However some Dalmatian Illyrians like Liburni being more archaic likely had some older V13 clades. But those in Central Balkans had almost certainly something to do with Vatin culture. Either already in Cetina culture through strong Corded Ware influence from a R-Z280 clade (such as one basal Z280 without relatives for 4500 years found in Serbs) E-CTS1273 had picked up a Satem pre-proto Thracian language or this happened later in Vatin culture and closely related cultures (such as some in Romania).

    In late Bronze Age Urnfield invasion (primarily R-U152) and other movements triggered mass movements of a number of E-V13's and others. These movements are well attested, and involve likely Central-Balkan -> South Albania movement as well as Central/East-Balkan-> Greece movement. Subsequently there were likely other migrations into Greece. And ofc some Greek V13's migrated there in Middle Ages.

    Btw. according to some historians about 800/700 BC if you asked members of many Illyrian tribes "are you Illyrian?" alot of them would answer to you by "what is that?". And some southern tribes might have answered "ah those are our neighbor tribe but we are not Illyrians". Few centuries later they became Illyrian so don't get too fixated on this idea that Antiquity peoples stretched all the way to Bronze Age. In late Bronze Age Antiquity peoples like Scythians, Sarmatians did not exist in any way under those names.

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